Surprise, Surprise

[joedog]

Just read an article in a Publication from North American Fisherman. Dr. Hal Schramm, "One of the biggest myths pertains to the fall bass bite,", "Thanks to repetition by guides, TV personalities and fellow anglers, many people think the bite happens because fish are 'fattening up' for winter."

In reality, he explains, bass don't prepare for bear-like hibernation by strapping on the feedbag. First, they don't hibernate---let alone conciously gorge themselves to prepare.

Second, bass become more active in fall in reaction to summer's tepid water temps. cooling into the fishes optimum range of 75 to 80 degrees. As fall progresses, shad and other baitfish in many systems often gather in shallow coves, rise into flats and move into choke points connecting knee-deep, weedy backwaters with deeper water. Bass follow, and the ensuing feeding spree---easy for anglers to spot and target---makes for fine fishing.

So what do you guys think?

[WatterBoy]

I've read that before also. From my perspective, I don't really care why the bite gets better for me in SEP/OCT every year, I just try to get out and ride it when I can.

[bassboogieman]

As fall progresses, shad and other baitfish in many systems often gather in shallow coves, rise into flats and move into choke points connecting knee-deep, weedy backwaters with deeper water. Bass follow, and the ensuing feeding spree---

Thus - fattening up for winter, when food sources dwindle and the cold water slows the bass metabolism and they don't eat as much. As for the statement "bass don't hibernate" - I find that totally rediculous. Hibernation is NOT the only reason animals take advantage of an available food source in prepreation for lean times (winter). Most animals in nature, including those that do not hibernate, try to pack on some fat before winter arrives in order to survive it.

[nofearengineer]

First of all...bass don't have cognitive abilities beyond 5 seconds from now. They have no idea why they do what they do, other than they are hungry and the forage is present in abundance. Frenzied eating is the result.

[kennethdaysale]

[QUOTE=joedog;355938]Just read an article in a Publication from North American Fisherman. Dr. Hal Schramm, "One of the biggest myths pertains to the fall bass bite,", "Thanks to repetition by guides, TV personalities and fellow anglers, many people think the bite happens because fish are 'fattening up' for winter."

In reality, he explains, bass don't prepare for bear-like hibernation by strapping on the feedbag. First, they don't hibernate---let alone conciously gorge themselves to prepare.

Second, bass become more active in fall in reaction to summer's tepid water temps. cooling into the fishes optimum range of 75 to 80 degrees. As fall progresses, shad and other baitfish in many systems often gather in shallow coves, rise into flats and move into choke points connecting knee-deep, weedy backwaters with deeper water. Bass follow, and the ensuing feeding spree---easy for anglers to spot and target---makes for fine fishing.

So what do you guys think?[/QUOTE
Gonna have to go with NFE's take on this but just reading those 22 words gives me goose bumps!

[bassboogieman]

Instinct is not cognitive, it's preprogramed - just like your laptop. I think bass instinctivly know to take advantage of the abundance of froage at this time of year. They may not realize why, but they do it, and it's repeated on an annual basis. Now head to Sams Club, Costco, BJ's whichever big lot store is in your area and load up the truck.

[joedog]

I agree, the first word that jumped out at me was the use of the word "conciously". Bass react not think.

I think thats exactly what he's trying to get accross. "First, they (DON'T) hibernate---let alone (DONT) conciously gorge themselves to prepare."
Nofear... I think you both are saying the same think, you just use better terminology!

[Crankbait]

Well I’m taking different things from this. My question is in on average does a bass eat more in the fall than in summer and how does their metabolism fall into play. Is the article simply saying in fall the shad move to a shallower more concentrated area to fish?

[bamabassman]

my opion is this, bass eat when the "food" is there and they can get it. when the bass is full he won't eat. opertunistic (spelling bruce?) feeders i think most of the time. reastion strikes and all. if it is there and they can get to it, they'll eat it. IF what we are trowing on that day is what they want to eat.

[keithdog]

Personally, I think it is a combination of instict and optimal water temps. As for the instinct part, I think that is probably more a piece of the puzzle for northern region bass than their southern counterparts. Southern bass have warmer water temps through the winter months, and a larger food base than the northern bass do. Northern bass are looking at several months of frozen water and much lower water temps. Thus the northern bass is going to have a VERY low metabolism than say a bass in Florida. Therefore, the survival needs of a northern bass are going to be much different than a southern bass. Over millions of years, all species learn to adapt in order to survive. And that adaptation becomes instinct. As the spring thaw proceeds to the hot summer months, and then the cooling temps of fall and early winter, a basses instincts take over in order to survive the comming months. I would bet that a fisherman in northern regions would see a much more noticable change in bass behavior in Wisconsin than a bass fisherman in Texas. That is because the survival needs are going to be very different regarding winter, and thus behavior will also be different.
Now along with all that is the issue of optimal water temperature. Bass like any other species is controlled in a large way by metabolism. Cold blooded animals more so than warm blooded. Water temps in the 60's and 70's are ideal for bass and that is what you have durring the fall. The desire to feed is going to be at it's highest durring these temperatures. And as the basses food sources move in shallow, the bass follow. I personally believe a northern bass is going to be driven by instinct to pack on as much fat as they can in order to survive the frozen tundra of winter. It's the stored fat that will keep them going untill spring. Bass don't make a concious choice to do this. Not any more than birds flying south for the winter months. It's a behavior driven by instinct for survival. Anyways, that my take.

[joedog]

Hey I love the insite. Kiethdog I agree about northern and southern bass being different in how they deal with seasonal changes. I've read that moving a soutern bass north and take a nortern bass of equal size, over time the northern bass will actually grow bigger and fatter than the hogs from like Florida. The study was done because all the private pond folks were stocking northern ponds with Florida fish.

Oh ya, I posted another thread a day or two ago, call "another fall bassing question" that directly ties into this but I'm getting no replies.

[Crankbait]

Keithdog I like what your saying . Everyone knows the bays start to migrate to the backs of creeks following shad but no one could tell me why the shad were moving to the back of creeks. Finally I figured out about how the plankton were reacting to the sun and everything made sense. But I guess the thing to really think about is the bass doesn’t have a grocery store to go to and buy shad. I think instinct and reaction go hand in hand. I mean the bass don’t really hibernate but do have a major decrease in the metabolism due to temperature drop (I’m talking northern bass) but they still eat in the winter. I like this forum stuff….good discussions.

[boloson]

i dont know about u guys but up here in the northeast they are not biting. air temp is about 63 during the day time so the water temp has to be in the high 40's. i still see them jump every 2 hours or so but man i wish i lived in down south or california somewhere. i dont know how i'll survive the winter

[nofearengineer]

I still say people are looking at it backwards; using a land animals perspective instead of a fish's.

Bass don't need to fatten up to survive Winter. They're cold blooded. If you ever catch a bass during Winter, it will be a football. Not because of what it ate during the Fall, but because of what it's been eating all Winter. Because they are still feeding, but burning almost no calories when not hunting.

If they fatten up for anything, it's for the spawn in the Spring.

And they still don't know why they do it. Unlike a bird or a bear, that are intelligent and have long-term memory, bass don't remember seasons. They have no idea what's coming.

[bassboogieman]

I've caught bass through the ice - they were not footballs.
Birds intelligent - then I guess I should no longer be insuted when called a "bird brain".
Bears getting ready for hibernation - I don't think they have a calendar in the woods so they can scratch off a day, when taiking their daily dump, but I could be wrong.

Cripes Bryce - If a bass doesn't fatten up for the winter, they certainly don't fatten up for the spawn - how can one be applicable if the other is not? Ya can't have it both ways. The reason bass "fatten up" for the spawn is that they starved all freakin' winter and need to eat to regain that which was lost over winter to survive. The water warms and they can persue prey, theyfore they eat. That it's prior to the spawn is coincidental (or maybe nature's plan, like the autumn bounty prior to winter's meager pickings). Again it's the survival instinct kicking in, not the light bulb going on it a fish's brain that he/she better get fit 'cause they may get lucky in a few weeks and have a shot a procreation.

But we do agree that they (fish) don't know why they do what they do. They do not have the plan - but nature does. And those unthinking lower tier animals don't need to think, they just need to do what their miniscule brains have been programed to do, because nature has provided for them as it has for all of us.

I think I'll go cut down a tree..................... build a fire, have a martini and reflect on how lucky I am that I'm not a fish.

[kennethdaysale]

Birds have varying degrees of "intelligence", crows(ravens) for example exhibit behavior that can only be described as self aware...cardinals/finches/sparrows..not so much.Big warm blooded mammals unquestionably operate with a more advanced skill set than fish. I think we can all agree that fish behavior and water temp go hand in hand. We can also agree that they are not capable of planning or anticipating or cognitive thoughts of any kind. Other than the few weeks of spawning rituals their most dominate drive is to eat. I'm convinced that the bass that is so gorged on shad in the fall that he pukes out a couple to make room for your plug is no more focused on eating than the winter bass that eats one 6" bluegill a week. The amount of time he feels satisfied and the amount of time it takes that meal to go from lips to sphincters is all about water temp/metabolic rate. Extensive scientific research has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a bass is at her heaviest in mid to late summer.

[nofearengineer]

Female bass are at their fattest in late Winter and early Spring, as they produce eggs for the upcoming spawn. That would mean they're still putting the pounds on long after the Fall bite is over. Or is it that they put the Fall feed bags on just to survive the early Winter, then all of a sudden start gaining weight again?

If they were fattest during late Summer, then why would they lose weight during the Fall bite? They obviously must, if they're fatter during the Summer, right?

Let's make some sense, boys.

[kennethdaysale]

Female Bass are at their thinnest in late winter and early spring. A female can only produce roe equal to a maximum of about 5% of her total weight. For a 10LB female full of eggs that only 8 oz. I'm not sure exactly what is confusing you about the fall bite and why their binge eating doesn't lead to the heavy weight that you imagine them achieving in the winter. Maybe visualize a bell curve where the apex is mid-late summer...this is when there is the most and biggest food of the year and when the water temps are just right for the fish to turn it into muscle mass and fat. I think I read one of your posts that used the term diminishing returns...well in the mid-late summer there is so much bio-mass in the food chain below a bass that she gets the maximum return (all she's got to do is just look around and open her mouth) the very definition of a spring/fall "frenzy" is that those same fish are burning a ton of calories for the same (or less) reward. Thus thinner. Makes plenty of sense to me and Fisheries Biologist and pond managers.

[nofearengineer]

Kenneth, you really need to stop with your passive-aggressive act; constantly referring to me and others you disagree with as "confused," "witless," etc.

You haven't been here very long, and obviously you don't know me well enough to lay those charges at me. I'll say it again...name-calling is a sure sign of losing a debate.

I sense the presence of a Doug Hannon true believer. Good luck with that.

All around the animal world, breeding is done when in the best condition, not the worst. Why would bass be any different? Serious record bass seekers all go out during the Early Spring, in order to catch a pre-spawn female. Are they all wrong? Please quote me the fisheries biologists who tell us bass are at their fattest during the late summer. I'm all ears.

You are erringly equating digestion speed with metabolism. Yes, a bass's digestion speed will be the highest during the late summer, but it's metabolism will be even higher, if the water temps are high. Bass have no control over how many calories they expend. If the water temps are high enough, they can't digest fast enough to maintain body weight.

They do not eat as much during the Winter, but almost everything they eat goes to body mass (or developing eggs). The two biggest calorie consumers for land animals are maintaining body heat and fighting gravity. Fish don't have either to deal with. Eating a 6' bluegill once a week during the Winter will make a bass very fat.

[Dogmatic]

I'm with NFE here, Bass don't "fatten up" for the winter, period. They have no cognitive ability what-so-ever, they don't know that there will be four feet of ice on top of the lake in a few months, it doesn't matter how many winters they lived through. They react to their environment, period.

[joedog]

Research shows that largemouths do begin to store energy as fat rather than protien this time of year.

And no I have no idea who did the research, or where or when. But it was in writing so...it's got to be true right?

[joedog]

Hey nofear, not that I personally ever would but I have to ask, how many posts do I have to place before I can insult you?

[nofearengineer]

Dog, thanks for the vote of confidence.

However, I don't think anyone at this point is adhering to the notion that they know what they're doing.

I don't want this thread to degenerate into a plssing contest, so here goes a different approach.

If I may do my best to summarize what I think are the main theories here. The mentioned parties should feel free to correct me if I mis-state their position:

Bassboogieman: Bass start gaining weight during the Fall, then gradually lose weight until the Spring spawn approaches. Not sure where Boogie would say the "skinniest" period would fall.

Kennethdaysale: Bass gain weight during the late Summer, then begin slowly losing weight until the Spring spawn. they then start gaining weight again, peaking in late Summer.

Me: Bass start gaining weight in the Fall, continue gaining until the Spring spawn. They "bottom out" in the late Summer.

What are everyones' personal experiences with this? When have the bass you've caught been at their fattest?

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by joedog

Hey nofear, not that I personally ever would but I have to ask, how many posts do I have to place before I can insult you?

LOL.

You can insult me any time you like. My point was, basing an opinion of me around one random otter thread might give someone a wrong frame of reference about my beliefs. Structuring one's debate against me on the basis of that wrong frame of reference might be disastrous.

For the 1% of the board who hasn't seen one of my "tirades," my avatar was a tongue-in-cheek joke between friends. I found it humorous that I was being mis-cast as the tree-hugging lefty, so I put on the costume, just to see how it fit.

[joedog]

My theories are:
Bass feed heaviest in spring and fall due mainly to the reaction to the action of bait fish who react to the growth of plankton who react to water temp. Making locating some what easier hence more fish caught the likelyhood of a big one being caught higher.
After the spring feed there is spawning which takes alot of energy whether male or female. Hence weight loss.
After fall feed they become lathargic and eat less but use up little or no energy to do so.

Hence the biggest fish should come in the fall.
Personally, I caught my biggest walleye in spring, biggest bass in the early fall.

I think some of the reason the biggest are caught during these two periods is that the biggins are basically lazy and are sitting in a deep hole somewhere in winter and hot portions of summer, less accessability less chance of getting a trophy.

And finally, dose everyone realize we are not talking gaining pounds and pounds of weight during these time frames or feeding frenzies, we are talking a gain of maybe a pound and I feel thats a rarity.
Whether you fish spring, summer,fall or maybe hole in the ice I hope you the best of luck and I am hoping to hear from someone that they just caught thier personal best!