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Old 12-12-07, 06:53 PM   #1
BigBassin144
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Default the RED debate

Ok, I got to thinking today during school. (about bass fishing of course) Anyways, I thought about the main tow reasons they use red in fishing.
1. Red line supposedly is nearly invisible under 3' of water.
2. Red hooks/bleeding bait to make the baits look injured.

Both of those things cannot be true. If the color red is the first color to become "invisible" unerwater, then how come red hooks/bleeding bait colors are not invisible underwater?

If red baits/hooks were, then why is the red Rat-L-Trap one of the most popular colors of R-Traps? Shouldn't it be "invisible" underwater? If the fish can see these baits, then the fish can see red line. If the fish can't see red line, then the fish can't see red baits.

Just something for you guys to think about too.

BB
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Old 12-12-07, 07:34 PM   #2
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The line is much much thinner and has less of a mass compared to a rattle trap or red hook.
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Old 12-12-07, 09:30 PM   #3
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As MoJo said, the line is less dense then the hooks/paint. But also, for me anyway, it is all about confidence. Personally, I like the red hooks and paint. The line--well, I think it's a crock...

I will have to say, my dad used Cajun Red Lightnin' this whole year, without replacing it once. Never curled very much, May-November...

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Old 12-12-07, 10:16 PM   #4
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The color red dosen't go invisible as you go deeper, it just turns gray. I do like a spot of red on my topwaters and shallow cranks though.
I also think the line-thing is bunk. I don't think a little red in the line hurts anything (especially if it makes it more visible above the water) but I don't think it helps either.
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Old 12-13-07, 01:24 AM   #5
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BB, I've often wondered the same thing. I did see an interesting take on it by I believe Gerald Swindel. He said the red line disappears under water because it does not reflect light. Hooks, on the other hand, DO reflect light and thus show up better. That is the first explanation that made sense.
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Old 12-13-07, 08:42 AM   #6
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Reb, I like G-man and believe alot he says.......but, I'm not buying the red line theory. If the red line absorbs light, thus doesn't show up better....then why does braid stick out like a sore thumb in the water, while green has a lower reflection index rate than red? My philosophy on the red line is this:

1. Less visible lines MAY only matter when you are fishing INCREDIBLY slow, with picky bass. The reason I say may, is because we will never know exactly how a fish sees things.

2. Personal preference, if you have confidence in it, throw it. If for some reason you think it's invisible, or you have your own crazy theory as long as it works for you thats all that matters.

3. My opinion on R-traps and cranks is that a fast moving bait only creates a reaction bite. I could probably paint my hooks hunter orange, purple, or pink and still catch a limit. Because, I don't buy into the hype about "bleeding hooks". I think a bass sees that trap come through his "hood" and decides to eat it. Thats Hef's .02
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Old 12-13-07, 10:02 AM   #7
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you guys need to study red in underwater photography.line is traanslucent and hooks are not.light passes through the line and reflects off hooks.red line turns grey so as you go deeper it camos in all but the clearest water.a red crankbait will turn black in 16 feet of water.the crank doesn't let light through so it turns black instead of grey.anybody who has studied underwater photography will confirm this.
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Old 12-13-07, 10:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBassin144 View Post
Ok, I got to thinking today during school. (about bass fishing of course) Anyways, I thought about the main tow reasons they use red in fishing.
1. Red line supposedly is nearly invisible under 3' of water.
2. Red hooks/bleeding bait to make the baits look injured.

Both of those things cannot be true. If the color red is the first color to become "invisible" unerwater, then how come red hooks/bleeding bait colors are not invisible underwater?

If red baits/hooks were, then why is the red Rat-L-Trap one of the most popular colors of R-Traps? Shouldn't it be "invisible" underwater? If the fish can see these baits, then the fish can see red line. If the fish can't see red line, then the fish can't see red baits.

Just something for you guys to think about too.

BB
Son! You are becoming a great philosopher! Great ponderance, no doubt!
I have read a lot of articles on this and tip my hat to "dogeguy" he nailed the color transitions perfectly. Dr. Loran of the University of Oklahoma (inventor of the color combo-selector) was the first to study this officially. His conclusions are what DG stated, ber baden. As far as the line goes, the translucent nature will no doubt have an impact because of light refraction, but that would probably only be noticeable in gin clear water.
You can get twisted around the axle pretty badly if you start chasing all of these different types of colored lines and visibility factors. I try to keep that in perspective, but try (very hard) not to let it get in the way of concentrating on the bait presentation.
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Old 12-13-07, 11:06 AM   #9
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This topic came up about 2 years ago and there was a ery interesting discussion.

Again, the logical problem is that there are several components in fishing where the color "red", when added, supposedly contributes to productivity.

1 Line (to make it invisible)
2 Hooks (supposedly to attract fish)
3 Bleeding patterns (to attract fish)

Now it was my theory that it could only be 1 or the other, either red attracts fish or it is invisible therefore makes lures more attractive by subtraction of distracting components. But for the sake of argument, could red line work pretty good because some fish find the red attractive? It looks like a sort of blood trail? Could fish find lures with red trebles attractive because they have trouble seeing the hooks at all?

And then we come to the color chartruse (and pink for that matter). I have always found these colors to be far more potent when it comes to attracting fish, but can fish see these colors as well? Should we under this theory start painting hooks pink or chartruse and line the same?
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Old 12-13-07, 11:10 AM   #10
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i find no problem getting bites on red line shallow.i do believe fish like it.trout are one of the spookiest fish around and they hit lures on red line.
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Old 12-13-07, 11:48 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTL View Post
This topic came up about 2 years ago and there was a ery interesting discussion.

Again, the logical problem is that there are several components in fishing where the color "red", when added, supposedly contributes to productivity.

1 Line (to make it invisible)
2 Hooks (supposedly to attract fish)
3 Bleeding patterns (to attract fish)

Now it was my theory that it could only be 1 or the other, either red attracts fish or it is invisible therefore makes lures more attractive by subtraction of distracting components. But for the sake of argument, could red line work pretty good because some fish find the red attractive? It looks like a sort of blood trail? Could fish find lures with red trebles attractive because they have trouble seeing the hooks at all?

And then we come to the color chartruse (and pink for that matter). I have always found these colors to be far more potent when it comes to attracting fish, but can fish see these colors as well? Should we under this theory start painting hooks pink or chartruse and line the same?
Read Dodge's earlier post he accurately explains the difference between the red translucent line and the red hooks and baits.
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Old 12-13-07, 04:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebbasser View Post
BB, I've often wondered the same thing. I did see an interesting take on it by I believe Gerald Swindel. He said the red line disappears under water because it does not reflect light. Hooks, on the other hand, DO reflect light and thus show up better. That is the first explanation that made sense.
Spot on target, Reb! Red line is not that dense, therefore it becomes a "white light" and disappears underwater. Red light is one of the first colors to do this, then I belive it goes, purple, blue, green, etc...

-LL-
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Old 12-13-07, 04:38 PM   #13
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Well, I wanted to see where you guys stand before I responded.

If you know about the light spectrum and such, you know that things look red, green, blue etc. beccause they absorb all the colors of the spectrum except certain ones (the ones we see). Black object absorb all of the colors of the spectrum while white absorbs none.

Scientifically speaking, the red line is less visible underwater is more beliveable than red hooks/baits attract fish. It is a known fact that some colors of the light spectrum penetrate deeper in the water than others. This is the principle behind the red line thing. Red does not penetrate deep into the water. So in theory, red line, which above the surface absorbs all the colors but red, will absorb all the colors but red under the water too. And since red does not penetrate deeply, the line has no color to reflect.

Scientifically, I don't belive that red hooks/baits would work because you can't make an expirement that will accurately test that bass like red hooks/baits over not red ones. There are just too many things that could effect the outcome.

BB
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Old 12-13-07, 04:42 PM   #14
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I forgot to mention about the red bait/hoosk thing. Scientifically, the red bait/hook things is hard to believe, but I still do belive that it works.

BB
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Old 12-13-07, 04:50 PM   #15
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I use red hooks on my worms all the time.. Why ???
Because when the red color wears off the shiney hook attracks fish.

Brass hooks would be my favorite if they held a point.

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Old 12-13-07, 05:20 PM   #16
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Here are a few more thoughts.

First, lets take the methological naturalist position and assume that evolution, for the purpose of understanding fish biology, is the rule of law.

Fish would then tend to develop features that promote their survival. One such feature is color. We know that bass can even change color to better camoflage themselves.

And yet their blood is still always red. If red were such an enticing color, why is their blood red? It attracts attention! They would want to have a less attractive color.

To be sure, predators may have learned to be attracted to the color red, but I tend to doubt that a little since I believe scientists have concluded that sharks rely on smell more than sight and they are the ultimate bloodhounds of the water.

So I propose a new theory to replace my old one.

1. Bass have been shown to be very active at night so long as the temperatures are warm.

2. Bass have the ability, even the predisposition to be very predatory even in very muddy water.

3. Red fishing line has been used effectivly in many circumstances, suggesting that it does not spook fish.

4. Red hooks are used with great success, although it is debatable whether they are any better than regular hooks.

5. Smell is without a doubt a very important characteristic to feeding fish.

6. Fish have highly evolved lateral lines and sound/vibration detecting senses that are less succeptable to being interfered with than light.

7. Many lures that look nothing like a prey animal are very effective.



From this I conclude that fishermen quite possibly overrate the importance of sight in regards to fish, somehow transposing our own understanding of sensory perception into the world of the fish where it does not apply. Underwater, fish are likely only to really see shadows, flashes and movement. Color may only be of secondary importance then, as it influences the perception of shadows or intensity of flashes. It may also be possible that colors come into play at the last second on a strike, when a fish has already commited itself to attacking; the color may help a fish lock on and aim at a particular spot (like the eyes of a baitfish, or for those who believe in red hooks at the hooks, thus leading to a better landing percentage).
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Old 12-13-07, 06:12 PM   #17
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If you belive red hooks are going to make a difference I´m the first one to tell you to use them. I have red hooks, lots of them, do I think they make a difference, well @ $1.99 a pack of five EWG 3/0 Gammys vs $2.50 same pack of five in black did make a difference when I purchased those 20 packs , besides, there were only 2 packs of black hooks in existance when and where I bought them.

Do red hooks have caught more fish for me than black or bronze hooks ? I found no difference in the catch ratio red vs black/bronze. So I think the theory is bull.

Bleeding patterns ? I feel the same about "bleeding" patterns as I feel about red hooks.

There are a lot more important things than red hooks or bleeding patterns, presentation and location are by far more important.

6. Fish have highly evolved lateral lines and sound/vibration detecting senses that are less succeptable to being interfered with than light.

7. Many lures that look nothing like a prey animal are very effective.


Bingo !
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Old 12-13-07, 09:44 PM   #18
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I've got an idea. This summer when we are swimming, I will take a red bait, a red hook, and some red line under water about 3-4' with me and look. It's as simple as that to determine the visibility of red lures/hooks/line. A lot easier than my scientific explination.

BB
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Old 12-13-07, 09:47 PM   #19
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Hey BB, whats amatter? NW Ohio huh? Just take a swim now why don't you? Lol, just kidding.

Somebody ought to find a heated pool and try that. Although I suspect water clarity has a bit of an effect on this as well.
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Old 12-14-07, 01:59 AM   #20
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Boys, there is an even simpler explanation:

We can discuss, argue, agree or disagree, quote scientific water/light refractation data all we want but it boils down to one very simple thing:

CONFIDENCE

If you think you catch more fish with red line or red hooks YOU DO! I cannot explain how/why it works, but if you have confidence a bait/color/line/whatever helps you catch more fish it does.

To quote our buddy Zooker, 'Nuff said.
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Old 12-14-07, 01:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBassin144 View Post
I've got an idea. This summer when we are swimming, I will take a red bait, a red hook, and some red line under water about 3-4' with me and look. It's as simple as that to determine the visibility of red lures/hooks/line. A lot easier than my scientific explination.

BB
The only small detail you are skippning with your experiment is that bass don´t see colors the way we do, wrong foundation = wrong results.
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Old 12-14-07, 04:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Hey BB, whats amatter? NW Ohio huh? Just take a swim now why don't you? Lol, just kidding.

Somebody ought to find a heated pool and try that. Although I suspect water clarity has a bit of an effect on this as well.
You know, I'd love to, but I'm afraid I'll hurt myself diving into 2" of ice.


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Old 12-15-07, 02:19 AM   #23
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When the lake is gin clear and gets to the point you can see a bottle cap at 20 feet I think red is visable deeper. It all depends on the amont of light that is present to make red.
The best line color for clear water here is lo-vis green yet green is one of the last colors to go away as the light spectrum gets weaker. Go Figure Fish2win
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Old 12-15-07, 01:40 PM   #24
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This was an interresting post to read. A lot of good thoughts to read. I'm not going to go into a lot of color spectrum ideas or any of that. I'll leave that to the above post writters who sound like they know more about it than I do. However, I do have an opinion about the whole red rage that is going on in the industry. I personally believe the whole red thing with lures is simply a gimic to sell more product and nothing more. There may be more to it with line, but with lures, I feel the whole bleeding bait, red hook thing is just a bunch of bunk. I don't believe fish see much blood in water. Think about it. How much blood do you see when filleting a fish. Not very much. If a bluegill gets an injury from a pike and survives to swim another day, I doubt there is a visible "blood trail" left behind, if any at all. Certainly, there is such a small occurance of this that would train preditory fish such as bass to "look" for signs of blood as a weakness to exploit. Most preditory fish swallow their prey whole without chewing it up. Where the boat is being missed with the whole blood red thing is not in the sight of blood in the water, but the scent. Shark chasers do NOT create a blood trail to entice sharks through sight. The trail is picked by up by sharks through scent. What would be helpful to us bass fisherman would be a spray on attractant that gives off the scents left in the water by injured fish. The scent of blood, along with pheromones released by an injured fish I believe would be the real beneficial approach for us bass fisherman.
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Old 12-15-07, 03:34 PM   #25
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This item is for fishermen to buy. It's a gimmick and the companies don't care whether a fish can see the red line or not. If thats your option to use it then more power to ya.
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