Letting the fish tell ya what they want...

[Deacon]

My take on it is this... I head to the lake with certain expectations. I know where they should be according to conditions and/ or where they have been many times before. I know / or think I know what they should be chewing. I know/ think I know the best presentation to get em. A lot of times I'm close but not quite there. When you think you should go home and sell ur gear you decide to cast out that jig and reach for a sandwich. After a few chomps you pick up the rod and unhook ur line that the wind has blown into the trolling motor and THUMP... fish on. Clue number one. This is when often times you ignore or fail to realize that you were given a clue. They are telling you what they want. On a different day it may the 50th time you get hung up and now you are p-oed. You throw a fit like your 2 year old and shake the crap outta your rod to free it... THUMP... another clue. Will we listen... hopefully. Sometimes it can be as subtle as a gear malfunction or a terrible backlash on your 15 lb test. you are forced to retire that setup and use a different rod (this one with 10). You tie on the same bait, cast, and THUMP. Was it as simple as line size... maybe, or was it the fact that while you were tying on the wind blew you out over deeper water or in tighter to the bank. Maybe it was just the action of that rod and this kept the bait from lifting up off the bottom as fast. They are talkn. Are we listening?

When I hear someone telling me “let the fish tell you what they want” is just telling me that person does not know! Some place an angler asked a top name Pro a question and the Pro did not know the answer and came up with this saying! Not trying to be cynical but I when years trying to figure out what these fish were saying!

Let me illustrate it this way! During a tournament you have the Top 10 that are catching fish and maybe three of them are using the same pattern and if they are using the same pattern they have a different bait or color. The winner won on a darter head with a grub and second place did it by drop shot with some unknown worm and color (or they did not want to say). One is catching 30 feet of water while the other is in 10 feet. Each one of these top 10 used their own pattern, on their own location, and landed their fish at different times along with different depths. What were all these fish telling the top 10 – nothing.

Bass are opportunist and creatures of habit that are predators and their behavior is governed by its instincts to survive. Security, food, and procreation are the drivers of a Basses life. Of those three food is the most important and “its behavior is affected by its relationship with its prey and has the most direct bearing on its hour to hour, day to day, and month to month activities”. “The Bass doesn’t choose one habitat or prey over another. It merely repeats behavior that has fulfilled its needs in the past while avoiding situations that have been stressful or have resulted in unsuccessful feeding attempts”.

Learn the habits of the bass and their prey and adjust your pattern to fit those habits!!!

"To understand the owl, study the mouse." Rick Clunn

[Ebbetsguy]

QUOTE" Bass are opportunist and creatures of habit that are predators and their behavior is governed by its instincts to survive. Security, food, and procreation are the drivers of a Basses life. Of those three food is the most important and “its behavior is affected by its relationship with its prey and has the most direct bearing on its hour to hour, day to day, and month to month activities”. “The Bass doesn’t choose one habitat or prey over another. It merely repeats behavior that has fulfilled its needs in the past while avoiding situations that have been stressful or have resulted in unsuccessful feeding attempts”.

That is most insightful post on this forum I have read on this site., thanks for that. This is how and why I was taught to fish, wonderful mind set!
Thanks , and how refreshing to read this here

[cassidyta]

While I am not trying to disagree with you on this Deacon, I do think that there comes a time when one particular bait/color will out perform another.
I liked your illustration, but are you saying that the three fishermen could have swapped locations and still caught the same fish because they opportunity was there for them?

[Deacon]

Originally Posted by cassidyta

While I am not trying to disagree with you on this Deacon, I do think that there comes a time when one particular bait/color will out perform another.
I liked your illustration, but are you saying that the three fishermen could have swapped locations and still caught the same fish because they opportunity was there for them?

I dunno, I got this thought in my head this morning when I woke up and just wanted to put it to paper so to speak. I need to think about it somemore and I can reply back with a good answer for ya Cass.

[Ebbetsguy]

Hey Deacon , check this out. I fish with the thought in my head that on any time, on a given body of water there is more than one pattern going on at one time. For me the reason for this is both cover at that part of the body of water and fish exploiting 2 different food sources. If you fellas are fishing to win a contest I can't say much because I never fish for numbers or weight I just fish.
Here is what happened a couple of years back, night fishing with my partner

On nights where worms were hammering fish, over weeds and rock piles in 6 to 12 + feet of water
I always fished this lake with 12 in Mann’s Jelly worms, weight less trigged with a Mustad old school 3/0 Bent Worm Hook

He always used a brown/pumpkin 12 inch hand pour, from a local mom and dad tackle shop

We decided to fish a few trips and switch up, each using the others favorite worms. Well each of us caught less using the other guys favorite color, when we switched back , on the same night to our particular favorite colors, both out catches went up, in the end we were both doing something with the presentation not the color, that was actually the key to success

It turns out that most of my Weightless Trigging is usually with old school OWNER worm hook, but they are made with a much thicker wire mil, hence when i went to Mustad it ws the rate of drop that SLOWED down

He was using a t rig, with a small roofing nail in the tail of his hand pour, speeding up his rate of drop, but keeping the tail of the worm in contact with the bottom for a few tugs, when he got the most hits
So we switched worms again, each using the other guys rigs and don't you know it we caught fish at the same rate as with the worm color of our own choosing
This taught me 2 things, it's about vibration and letting that fish know this is the most meal with the least amount of effort on his part, and for 99.99999% of the time color don't mean squat. This has shown up in my logs , more than any other mis conception i had to throw color phobia to the side

[cassidyta]

I concur that a good bait when presented wrong is not a good bait. Additionally, I won't say that color isn't over rated, but I would disagree with your % numbers.

I have seen first hand that particular colors work better than others. I have seen times where a morning dawn gets bites before noon and then the bite slows, I switch colors and the bite is hot again.
Personally, I think that color will determine how agressively the fish moves in on a bait and how they strike it.

[Ebbetsguy]

Hey Cass: I think I know where we differ in what we are seeing, or should I say the fish are seeing.
WHEN DO YOU FISH MOSTLY? What time of day?
I went from fishing mostly from noon to dusk to becoming a full fledged night owl , all of my fishing ( non river) on lakes and ponds is done over night i get on the water for 8pm and pulling off between 6 to 8am, this may account for what we are seeing, given it seems you also fish a lot , What do you think?

[cassidyta]

Ebbets,

I had similar thoughts as I was writing it. Most of my fishing is in very clear water between sunrise until mid afternoon. I think the pure science of colors being a reflection of light would make them matter more in the daytime.

One question I have. In your logs, do you see any difference in your bait choices with a full moon?

[Ebbetsguy]

Good question, I just attended the NYBASS.com annual seminar, guy there named PALADIN, gave a rocking presentation on night fishing
His experience showed that his bait choice was correlated to Alewives Spawn and Bass activity. His observation was that if the fish took what ever bait on top then all the action would be on top ( this is night time only), if they hit on the bottom, then all the action would come on the bottom. I had somewhat differnt results.
I am trying to correlate what I have
If I am using a , lets say Black Jitter bug at 9pm , on a full moon, clear night I am getting hit until the moon is very bright and dead above us, and it’s very bright what I am seeing at that point the bite gets better along the deeper weed and rocks, because I think on a clear enough night, with a strong enough full moon, the fish head for cover in a similar way they do on clear sunlit days
Hey Cass I have been known to mis interpret things before so I need pick his brain a lot more, and pay attention to this year, and see what i come up with. The hardest thing in bass fishing is for me is to not give the bass too much human traits, thus let them tell you whets going on, I am really in the groove that you can not humanize bass, and if you find what they are eating you find the active bass

[cassidyta]

I don't night fish much, but it is my belief that at night they are heading to that cover to serve as an ambush point rather than to seek shelter from the light as they do on a bright summer day. In the summer, I believe it is a defensive move and at night it is more for the feeding capabilities.
While I have been known to humanize bass too much, I do think that not all strikes are driven by hunger. I have a hard time in believing that an 8' bass hit my 6" lure in an attempt to eat it. Perhaps it was a terretory thing and it was not an attempt tofeed but rather to drive the bait away.
Most bedding fish that I have caught were not acting as though they wanted a meal. I have also seen fish hit a drop shot worm because I smacked them in the face with it enough times. I will not attempt to define this as a human feeling, but it was neither for defense or hunger that they hit the bait.

[Ebbetsguy]

You can believe what you want, that just leaves the better fish in the water for me to catch

anyways on another thread I posted some links to scientific papers i have read, that's peer reviewed research not by some pro or company with something to sell
There are so many verified accounts that bass will even eat each other and prey bigger than them, that dispels any notion that a 6 inch fish will not hit an 8 inch plug out of hunger. For those of us who have fished for decades and for scientific studies, that’s a very common occurrence , and it is because they were hungry enough to try and eat it.
Why do you think those Swim Bait guys catch dinks on their baits so often? I think Deacon can attest to this.

[coachpurdy]

Originally Posted by Deacon

avoiding situations that have been stressful or have resulted in unsuccessful feeding attempts”.

Learn the habits of the bass and their prey and adjust your pattern to fit those habits!!!

"To understand the owl, study the mouse." Rick Clunn

I believe that fish can become "educated" to certian baits or patterns, especially on high pressure lakes.
I have fished small gov't lakes for years and what may work one year or two doesn't always work the next. Subtle differences in presentation can be key to catching these bass.
As far as bass telling you what they want this could be anything frim seeing bass feeding to seeing what they may have in their mouths. Bass are oportunistic however I think they do target certian areas and species to feed depending on several different factors. But I'm no expert by any means, its only my opinion.

[cassidyta]

Don't worry too much about catching all of the fish, I do okay with my beliefs too.
One of the things that I think is great about fishing is that there are so many right ways to do it.
When I golfed, there was pretty much only one way to swing a driver and produce the desired result. Many folks could get by with adjustments to grip and body position, but the physics came down to how the face of the club met the ball and followed through. You may get lucky from swing to swing, but to be consistant, you had to master how the ball was struck. Fishing isn't like that. Two guys can go out with two exactly different approaches and both have a successful day.

As a swimbait guy, i too have caught dinks on swimbaits but it is usually a different type of strike. It is not just because of the size that it is different.

And I too read the peer review documents and can say that there are plenty of peer review docs out there which will state that fish display emotions. (I will conceed that most of these are probably funded by PETA or some other org with an agenda). But they are certifed peer review docs.
At the end of the day, most scientific peer reviews are more focused on the testing procedures then the outcome. If the tests could be repeated, then it had a great chance at having a successful review.

Not to go on a tangent here, but I can find plenty of peer reviewed documents to support creationism and evolution, doesn't make either one right or wrong.

[Ebbetsguy]

I made the disclaimer about funded and biased scientific research, and if we are going to go Scopes Monkey Trial and disprove evolution to prove a point , I am not getting into that mess, or the sideshow, I have too much education to renounce evolution. I have said what I wanted to share and I can tell you I don’t golf and golf has nothing to do with fishing. Golf is the skill of the player using inanimate tools to play a game; fish are living organisms, driven by instinct, devoid of emotion. Their brains are not equipped for emotion, they do strike to protect their territory and young, as reproduction is the second most powerful instinct, second to self preservation. Here we are again, I don't want to battle, you all keep teaching each other what you want, I’m going fishing , I’m off this one

[MallenManson]

Originally Posted by coachpurdy;325160[COLOR=red

]I believe that fish can become "educated" to certian baits or patterns, especially on high pressure lakes.[/COLOR]
I have fished small gov't lakes for years and what may work one year or two doesn't always work the next. Subtle differences in presentation can be key to catching these bass.
As far as bass telling you what they want this could be anything frim seeing bass feeding to seeing what they may have in their mouths. Bass are oportunistic however I think they do target certian areas and species to feed depending on several different factors. But I'm no expert by any means, its only my opinion.

KVD would certainly agree! During one of last years tourneys, he was throwin a crankbait (can't remember which one) with rattles. He was havin success with it, but the bite stopped.
He switched to the exact same crankbait, only without the rattles, and the bite was back on.

[Mac2]

I'm thinking the crankbait "without rattles" still has rattles, just not so loud and perhaps intrusive. The rattling of the hooks, split rings and the attachment loops of wire on the bait will still rattle somewhat and probably do play a part in helping the fish locate the bait. Also the split rings bouncing upward or the bait body swinging downward and colliding with the split rings could also be affecting the noise output of the lure overall. I know what you mean, but perhaps the more subtle "ticking" plays a part.

Not trying to disagree with anyone, just tinkering with thought.

Good Fishing, Mac

[MallenManson]

Of course, I was simply referring to actual rattles

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by Deacon

I dunno, I got this thought in my head this morning when I woke up and just wanted to put it to paper so to speak. I need to think about it somemore and I can reply back with a good answer for ya Cass.

You sure that's the story you want to go with?


http://www.calbassin.com/Smf/index.php?topic=11586.0

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

You sure that's the story you want to go with?


http://www.calbassin.com/Smf/index.php?topic=11586.0

[Ebbetsguy]

Hey Fellas; Cass Pmd me thinking that he busted my balls and i got upset,. Reading my answer, I can see how it can be read like that. IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION! I want to stay on threads that don't go the I’m right, no your not kind of cabin fever groove. It seems to be where I get the most unruly and this thread was heading there, for ME, I am trying to stay out of train wrecks, so I bowed out, sorry you felt that way Cass
Dominick

[woody]

http://www.bassfishin.com/bassfishin...ad.php?t=26526

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

That is most insightful post on this forum I have read on this site., thanks for that. This is how and why I was taught to fish, wonderful mind set!
Thanks , and how refreshing to read this here

Well, so much for that!

[Ebbetsguy]

When me and my fishing partner, are anywhere new,John always makes me laugh. He will ask someone how the bite is, or what are they taking? and the guy answers " the fish will tell you" he always mutters under his breath " Another ^&!#*ING A&#HOLE coming in with an empty livewell"

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

Well, so much for that!

It was brought to my attention that this post I made might have come across as if I were taking a shot at Ebbets. I promise that wasn't my intentions, but considering what has unfolded in the past month or so I can understand how it might be taken that way. I just wanted to say that I didn't mean that towards Ebbets at all, in fact if any other member would have said that it was the most informational post they have ever seen on this site I would have made the same comment. I was making a joke about the situation in general because this was said to be the most informational post on the site and as it turns out it didn't even belong to this site lol. I guess my joke might have not come across like it did in my head and I apolagize if Ebbets feels like I was taking a shot at him. Like I said I was just making fun of the situation, or atleast trying to.

However, whoever the persons were who posted these thoughts on the other site before they were copied and pasted here had a very good post going. Its a shame that all the information in the thread were overshadowed with this. Its unfortunate because had Deacon gave the information in a way that didn't take credit for thoughts that weren't his, this thread would have possibly helped a lot more people because the information in the thread wouldn't have been overtaken by all this.

[Ebbetsguy]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

QUOTE" Bass are opportunist and creatures of habit that are predators and their behavior is governed by its instincts to survive. Security, food, and procreation are the drivers of a Basses life. Of those three food is the most important and “its behavior is affected by its relationship with its prey and has the most direct bearing on its hour to hour, day to day, and month to month activities”. “The Bass doesn’t choose one habitat or prey over another. It merely repeats behavior that has fulfilled its needs in the past while avoiding situations that have been stressful or have resulted in unsuccessful feeding attempts”.

That is most insightful post on this forum I have read on this site., thanks for that. This is how and why I was taught to fish, wonderful mind set!
Thanks , and how refreshing to read this here

HEY CASS IN RESPONSE TO UR PM"S LAST NIGHT:

Well it's the best thing I read here stolen from Mart'y over at Cal Bassin.com

I beleive this also made it to a thread at br.com, possibly on one started by Fish Chris , some time ago, it was in response to something that was said there, I forgot who put it up. I always jump on these responses as this is how I fish, with this mind set, and it works wonders for me. That quote may have originally come from a Matt Fly thread, who first introduced me to understand what they eat