Question about line sensitivity when flipping

[RonB]

Hi,
I'm a new member from Southwestern Ohio.
I mainly pitch and flip jigs and have a questin about line.
I recently upgraded to a St. Croix Mojo 7 ft MH rod and am using my older first generation Shimano Castaic reel. The line I am using is Berkley XT 12lb. mono.

I tried Fireline once back in the 90's (not sure which lb) and I had a lot of problems with the line digging into the spool. I have read some of the threads and used the search feature some too...just a lot of info here!!
I'm looking for the most sensitive line I can find just for flipping/pitching. I think I'm missing a lot of fish because I dont think I'm detecting the soft hits well enough, especially on the initial fall. I do keep my index finger under the line as it comes out of the reel.

I dont believe in the marketing hype, if that were the case we all would throw everything in our bags away and just have Banjo Minnows and Helicopter lures so....back to the probably most asked question here, just under maybe different situation....how much more sensitive is braid over mono, and what test would you use for flipping pitching. Bear in mind, I am talking about Ohio...I hear about a lot of 5+ fish...just dont see very many. My personal best was 6lb 2oz out of Brookville Lake, Indiana. Mostly see 1lb to 2.5lb fish.

I'm just getting back into bass fishing after a couple year break, bought a new boat,rod, spent a small fortune on bag,jigs,plastic, been fishing 3 times a week for the last month....I might be sleeping in the barn if I don't slow down some lol.

Thanks,
Ron

[Bassboss]

Well.... 12lb line is to light for you do most! I would use at least 17lb mono, but I would rather use 50lb braid! Power pro is good, and I hear good things about the new sufix line, I would give that a try. As far as mono goes. Get 17-20lb sufix elite. I would also try flouro carbon, it stronger than mono, and fish can't see it, it's also low stretch; the only down side is that it's stiff, and has high memory, thus making it more prone to back lashes. You can help fix tha by getting some line conditioner. kvd line and lure is best, if you cna find it get ardent line butter. Best flouro brand is suagar.

[Joel]

You're way under gunned with 12 lb Mono. If you're flipping into the nasty stuff 50-65 lb Braid ( Suffix over Power Pro these days), is the way to go. If you're concerned about line visibility issues, use a 17+ lb leader. Also if you're flipping/pitching around rocks, walls, etc. you need a leader as Braid will cut easily in abrasive conditions.

[BigBassin144]

I don't know about down near him, but up here in ohio, there isn't much cover I would hesitate to pitch with 12lb line.

Back to the original question. superlines in general are much much more sensitive than mono. So is fluorocarbon line, but I'd stick with braid, unless you're pitching in ultra clear water. Superlines are broken into two categories: Braided and Fused. Lines like Fireline and Stren's Microfuse are fused line, which mean the fibers are fused together with heat. Braided lines are just like they shound, the fiber are braided. There are many more braided lines on the market, and personally, I like them much better.

Of the braids I've used, Sufix is my favorite and they have a money back guarantee if you don't like it. Power pro would be my second choice. I've heard great things about the new Fireline Braid (not regular fireline)

I don't think you'd have any problem with line digging in with 30lb braid, but you may since it's only the diameter of 8lb test. You may want to go with 40 or 50lb braid. I know's the lb test is was overkill, even 30 is, but when dealing with braid, most of the time you're going to look at line diameter.

BB

[RonB]

Thanks for the replys!
I do have concerns about fish seeing the line. The water around here has been fairly clear...I can usually see the rocks and stumps down to about 2 feet or so.
I will admit, the idea of a leader doesn't appeal to me. Will the 50 lb braid dig down into the spool on hooksets? Or could I use a lower lb of Suffix and have lower visibilty and still have the strength I need? last...just how much more sensitive is braid than mono actually anyway?


oops..didnt see the post right above me here from BB

Thanks!
Ron

[Joel]

Originally Posted by RonB

Thanks for the replys!
I do have concerns about fish seeing the line. The water around here has been fairly clear...I can usually see the rocks and stumps down to about 2 feet or so.
I will admit, the idea of a leader doesn't appeal to me. Will the 50 lb braid dig down into the spool on hooksets? Or could I use a lower lb of Suffix and have lower visibilty and still have the strength I need? last...just how much more sensitive is braid than mono actually anyway?oops..didnt see the post right above me here from BB

Thanks!
Ron

I'm a 100% braid user. All my setups use a leader except when I'm pitching into weeds where line visibility isn't an issue. For a leader I use 10-12 lb mono on my spinning setups and 17lb mono on my baitcaster setups. I use a Albright knot to attach the leader to the braid, and it is nearly fool proof. If it's good enough for the salt, it's practically over kill in freshwater.

As for digging in issues, I used 10 braid on my spinning setups and have had those issues when the line is wet. I've gone back to 15 lb Braid and it really made a big difference. As I change lines ( ( keep the line for a min of 2 years), I'll be switching to 20 lb braid for spinning setups. For my baitcasters I use 30 lb Sufix Braid for every one except my jg setup. For that it's 50-65 lb braid. I do change that line every year.

The reason I don't opt for 50+ lb Braid for all my baitcaster setups is that the line just doesn't break off if you get snagged and really put a big hookset on. More likey your rod tip will break 1st. Even with 30lb Braid you need to be careful. Ease off the drag a touch to be on the safe side.

[nofearengineer]

It's hard to quantify how much more sensitive one line is compared to another, in a hard measurement sense. Especially since you have to factor in the rod and guide material for the big picture.

However, one thing is certain, braid stretches far less than mono. If you've ever felt what you thought was a strike and set the hook hard into a stump with braid, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's bone-jarring. Kind of like hitting a baseball off the end of the bat.

What you can do is tie sinkers of various sizes on to your line, and drape the line over another horizontal fishing rod, so that the sinker is hanging and the line is just taut. If you have a fishing buddy tap at the sinker with various objects while you are not looking at it, you can judge which works best for you. You should use hard objects like a coin, soft objects like a pencil eraser, varying the strength of the "bite". You should also see if you can sense the hit when the sinker is lifted in palm of the hand, to simulate a weightless pick-up.

Try that with all kinds of lines for a "seat of the pants" determination of how much more sensitive one is than the other.

[carolina-rig-01]

if it were me i would use flourocarbon. don't get me wrong braid is good stuff, it's what i flip with. but if you don't have a lot of nasty cover and the water is clear the flourocarbon would be a good choice, plus it won't dig in to itself like braid will.

[islandbass]

Originally Posted by RonB

Thanks for the replys!
I do have concerns about fish seeing the line. The water around here has been fairly clear...I can usually see the rocks and stumps down to about 2 feet or so.
I will admit, the idea of a leader doesn't appeal to me. Will the 50 lb braid dig down into the spool on hooksets? Or could I use a lower lb of Suffix and have lower visibilty and still have the strength I need? last...just how much more sensitive is braid than mono actually anyway?


oops..didnt see the post right above me here from BB

Thanks!
Ron

First, you're going to have to accept that line dig is a given with any braid line you use. However, the thicker the diameter of the line, the less of an issue it will be. Stick with 50-60# test if line dig really bothers you. Do not go lower!!! There are ways to minimize it, but not eliminate it completely. It is a small price to pay for the traits braid possesses, and if you know what you're doing. Do some more searches on braid. I wrote somewhere the things I do to reduce line dig and to be honest, I hardly ever experience line dig, even with the 30# ppro that I use.

The ability to transmit feed back from the end of the line to the angler is simply fantastic with braid.

One other little thing; you mention that you don't want the line to be too visible. Unfortunately because braid is opaque, it is going to be the most visible of the lines. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't catch fish. Many times, the fish could care less and I say this from personal experience. Sometimes, it can.

Some people will use a leader and some insist fishing direct. The only way you can determine for yourself which is best is to try both. I have used both. If I am fishing ultra clear water, I will opt to use fc line. If the water isn't clear, straight braid.

Good luck! I have used PPro and Stealth and prefer the former. I think the other braids are just too pricey for me.

[BigBassin144]

Ron, in cover and 2ft vis, I wouldn't worry about them seeing the line. I've pitched with 30lb braid, in Bird Lake in MI. Water vis was about 10-12' or more. The weeds around the docks weren't extremely thick, but I think the green braid blends in fairly well in the weeds.

BB

[Bassboss]

Originally Posted by RonB

Thanks for the replys!
I do have concerns about fish seeing the line. The water around here has been fairly clear...I can usually see the rocks and stumps down to about 2 feet or so.
I will admit, the idea of a leader doesn't appeal to me. Will the 50 lb braid dig down into the spool on hooksets? Or could I use a lower lb of Suffix and have lower visibilty and still have the strength I need? last...just how much more sensitive is braid than mono actually anyway?


oops..didnt see the post right above me here from BB

Thanks!
Ron

Ya, you don't need to worry about the briad digging into the spool that much. It not a big deal when using over 30lb braid, you should be just fine with 50lb. And ya, if you're worried about vis, just but on a 17+ pound flouro leader; I really don't think it's needed at all when fishing heavy gunk!

[swimbaitkid]

usually when they eat a lure when you are flipping and pitchin they eat it like they stole it and run really fast,or they hit it really hard.thats the way they have always hit it where I pitch n flip

[Jigger]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

if it were me i would use flourocarbon. don't get me wrong braid is good stuff, it's what i flip with. but if you don't have a lot of nasty cover and the water is clear the flourocarbon would be a good choice, plus it won't dig in to itself like braid will.

Ditto. Plus, something I haven't seen anyone talk about yet and to me is one of the most important advantages of fluoro or mono over green braid is that you can see the mono or fluoro well whereas the green braid you can hardly see, or at least, I can hardly see it, especially in low light. I'm the worlds most fanatical line watcher. Pitching and flipping are my go-to techniques. I've got a bad case of tendinitis that I wear a brace for because I do it so much and I watch my line from the time my bait hits the water until it leaves the water. I'd say at least half my bites I never feel at all. I only see the line twitch, or move off or stop short of the bottom. Whatever you do, get a line you can see well if you're going to be a good pitcher or flipper. One option I've tried but didn't like too well was get the Power Pro yellow hi vis in say, 50 lb test and tie a flouro leader. You can really see the yellow but I hate leaders so I went back to mono and fluoro. Bottom line, get a line YOU can see and watch it religiously. Be a line watcher.

[bassboogieman]

As a line watcher, I agree with the above that the dark braids are HARD to see, especially with my OLD eyes. I still revert to braid when fishing lakes with heavy vegetation, but My home waters don't have a lot of heavy grass - so you may want to try what I use there. I'm using the Berkley Transition or the new Trilene Trans Optic flurocarbon in 17#. This line glows yellow in sunlight, and is "invisible" under water. Be advised that when pitching in to shaded area, the yellow glow is not near as strong as in sunlight.
But I like this line because I can see it and the fish can't; I don't need a leader, one less knot to deal with; its very sensitive with minimal stretch, resulting in a little less stress impacted on your rod with the hook set; and flurocarbon is very abraision resistant so it's good around docks and rocks; it also sinks whereas braid floats. Finally I can break off the 17# F/c should I get it hung up, unlike heavy test braid which you usually have to cut off and leave a bunch in the water, and IT'S CHEAPER. In my opinion it's more of an ALL purpose line as opposed to braid.

[bigjim]

i learn something new everytime i visit these forums....i love it!!
from what ive been reading, it sounds like i should get a another set-up (rod / reel ) with heavier line and use it strictly for pitching & flipping jigs. cause i really want to get into using jigs more,my current set-up is lighter line ,10lb fluro. on spinning set-up. apparently not going to work to well with jigs...
or can i use my current set-up for around boat docks and such with little to no cover? or is 10lb line just way to light regardless?

[Jigger]

Originally Posted by bigjim

i learn something new everytime i visit these forums....i love it!!
from what ive been reading, it sounds like i should get a another set-up (rod / reel ) with heavier line and use it strictly for pitching & flipping jigs. cause i really want to get into using jigs more,my current set-up is lighter line ,10lb fluro. on spinning set-up. apparently not going to work to well with jigs...
or can i use my current set-up for around boat docks and such with little to no cover? or is 10lb line just way to light regardless?

Jim, you got it. Dump the spinning rig for pitching/flipping. It can be done with a spinning rig but not near as accurate, controllable or easy as with a baitcasting rig. Baitcasters are made for pitching and flipping. Don't get me wrong, when I'm fishing a spinning rig I'll sometimes flip and pitch with it and it works but if Im power fishing jigs or plastics and I know I'm going to be pitching or flipping I always go with the baitcaster. I don't fish much clear water so I can't answer your question about line size in really gin clear water but in the stained waters I mostly fish, I never go lighter than 15 lb test and nearly always use 20 lb mono or fluoro. I'm usually pitching into brushpiles, bushes, laydowns, stickups, cattails, rocks, weed beds, grass beds and stumps, ie "tangles" and I wouldn't be caught dead pitching with 10 lb line.

[bigjim]

thanks Jigger. i was debating on getting a baitcasting set-up, now i guess ill will.
might have to wait until next season though, unfortunately..unless i can scrounge up some stuff to sell on EBay! LOL

[BassinID]

I would have to say that mono is definetly a killer in the "feel" catagory. Most monos stretch somewhere between 12 and 20 percent, while flouro is like 1-7 percent and braid is 1/20th percent to 1 percent. From the sounds of it you should probably be looking at flouro. A 17-25 lb abrasion resistant line like abrasix from seguar would be tops.

[dodgeguy]

Originally Posted by Joel

You're way under gunned with 12 lb Mono. If you're flipping into the nasty stuff 50-65 lb Braid ( Suffix over Power Pro these days), is the way to go. If you're concerned about line visibility issues, use a 17+ lb leader. Also if you're flipping/pitching around rocks, walls, etc. you need a leader as Braid will cut easily in abrasive conditions.

i agree with joel except use the new fireline braid.it is the best braid made.it is nothing like fused fireline.