And they still believe???

[MO_CPA]

^^^^^^ LOL Mississipi. Maybe that's what everything boils down to.

[bassboogieman]

I never engage in POLTICAL DISCUSSION, for like politics - it goes NOWHERE.

[Ebbetsguy]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Dom,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being working class. The world needs bakers, butchers, and bricklayers too.

There is something wrong with being working class, and being bitter about it to the point of blaming the people who give you a job. There is no other country with the upward mobility we have in the United States.

The vast majority of the poor working class in America stay poor because they don't bother to learn how math or money works, and they make poor decisions. There is of course, some luck involved, as there is in anything, but I have found that oddly, bad luck tends to hit the unprepared the most.

I'm not saying any of this to be mean or arrogant. These are cold, hard truths of life.

AGREE 100% with not being bitter, thanks for explaining your position, sorry for the bandwagon. There is a lot of anti union anti working guy sentiment lately so I get a bit defensive on the subject,
Dom

[TN_Bassin]

Well at least this disscusion has remained just that... a discussion.

[Top Tiger]

Funny how NFE sounds like Judge Smails in "Caddyshack"
"The world needs ditch diggers too"
After awhile, I get tired of the condescending attitude of the far right.

[MO_CPA]

TN Bassin, I agree. Substance of the discussion must be preserved. Once one runs out of substance, they resort to belittling or making fun of others.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by Top Tiger

Funny how NFE sounds like Judge Smails in "Caddyshack"
"The world needs ditch diggers too"
After awhile, I get tired of the condescending attitude of the far right.

Tiger,

Did you just express an opinion about a political adversary based upon a fictional character? That's really a bit childish.

Because other than having thrown a golf club or three, I am far from being like Judge Smails (I just so happen to tip extremely well, for one). To me, the judge is more a caricature of how Hollywood liberals incorrectly see Conservatives than he is a caricature of a Conservative.

Frankly, I think you're the one insulting blue-collar workers here, with your insistence that being acknowledged as such is such a terrible thing.

[Top Tiger]

Huh?NFE, I, personally was insulted with the "indoctrinated" comment. When you post as a conservative caricature you should expect to be taken as one.
But, you're right. Opinions are like a&&holes; everybody has one.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by MississippiBoy

I hate these discussions, because nobody is going to change anybody else's mind about anything.
"Those persuaded against their will, are of the same mind still."
But all that being said....

x2...

BB

message is too short...

[MO_CPA]

Looks like that deer needs an ice cold Budweiser with it's popcorn.

[nobass]

i have read all your post and both side have good points and bad ones . i am not smart enough to argue with you on them nor do i want to. but if any of you think congress or senate runs this country any more your wrong big money dose. the elected officals have one of the best job with benfts in the world work 2 to 6 years, have paid medical do not pay ss. have great retiremnt program get raise without voting for it but yet want to cut ours. i am one of those 12 grade grads got drafted and dieened toi go to college, spent 22 years in army, started work day i have retired and work everyday sincenever drawn employment or welfare, however i do get a check every month and 20 percent disabilityty who some say thats giving to me , hell do what i did for 22 years and say that,. until the american people wake up and start taking back this country and control the elected offical instead of them controling us it will never get better, as far as unions go why do you think they got started. becaue the top 1 percent control the money and the WORKING CLASS was makeing little or nothing. the greed of the rich got us into thise mess. by making shady loans, bad chioces on not keeping up with world market(auto makers). spending more and borrowing more why would you boorrow money from china and give it back in aid,. the last war we did rigth was ww2 we have been making the same dumb mistakes since then. we elected a man to office who bankrupt 3 companies, had a brother who was big in the saving and loan scam. who had a vp and def\e sec from daddies world who got in the biggest money pit war of all times. and if anyone thinks we would be doing any better with Mccane/palin running this country have got to take a hard look,\ do i think obama is doing a good job no do i think he would do better if had a dem. majority no because washington is broken and we have to as americans start screaming and let it be known we are done with the fighting and if you will not start taking care of businness you are gone without pay or benifits . i will now get off the soap box thank you for reading this, i spent 22 years defending your right of free speech now i just excerise that right

[keithdog]

Wow, when I started this post I had no idea this would all come from it. It's obvious that those of us in the forums are no different from all Americans. We all have our beliefs based on many things, such as how we were raised, our backgrounds, life experiences, what we learned through education, and so on. We in here have varied beliefs as could only be expected. What came of this post is exactly what I want to see on a national level. Americans discussing their beliefs and ideas. Perhaps then, if the media would broadcast it honestly which I doubt they would, we could collectivly come up with a few answers. Only when Americans start tossing our elected officials out of office and demanding to be heard and respected for what we are, the true America, only then will things begin to change for the better. Big business needs to thrive for the rest of us to thrive. BUT, big business should never be allowed to dictate decisions made in DC. Our elected officials must be made to follow the same rules all other Americans have to follow. They should be forced to "enjoy" the same healthcare all of us do. And they should NOT have a lifetime of unbelievable benefits for the rest of their lives after they leave office. No more than the rest of us work and save for. Unions should protect the workers and fight for fairness and safety of it's workers. Unions should never become so powerful that they can actually dictate to the company what the company can and will do. We will never fully agree on all things. Thats a given. But there is common ground we can agree on. Respecting each other is always a first step. Honesty and accountability in goverment and the press is the next step. And the most important step is in exercising our right as a free country to go to the polls on election day and vote for the person who most closely reflects our beliefs. And if they fail to deliver, vote them out next time around. Thats about all we can do as a nation. That and pray!

[Top Tiger]

I guess that I'm one of those hated, pinko, commie liberals but like Nobass I've earned the right or priviledge to speak my piece. I'm against corporate welfare as much as I'm against welfare scammers.
Even though we disagree, no doubt, on a lot, Keithdog makes some very good points. Will Rodgers said that he needed to go to Washington every so often to check on the hired help. He was absolutely right. No one on either side of the aisle should have any business except the business of the people. Not corporations, not unions but the average taxpayer that hired him. In a perfect world, that's how it would be.

[WTL]

This is the first time I have clicked on this discussion. First off, I don't see the need for the deer eating popcorn type stuff. People whine about those who discuss politics, but it is essential to a free and prosperous nation that we come together to try and create some consensus.

2nd thing I would say is that people are largely influenced by their backgrounds. One of the problems of modern society is that it is so complex that we are forced to take experts on face value for 98% of whats going on out there, because nobody has the time to become an expert on everything.

And so, we blame the economy on the rich writing more loans, or gas prices rising 3 fold on Obama. But this story is more complex.

So with that out of the way, I offer a few shots. Top, thankyou for your service. My Dad also served in vietnam, and like him I have become anti-war over the past several years. But what do you think of our involvement in Libya? What about having bases in Germany, Japan, and over 100 other countries? Should we not just pull back, and if we don't immediatly, as Obama promised, does that not stain his presidency just as blood red as it did Bush's?

There is something wrong with being working class, and being bitter about it to the point of blaming the people who give you a job. There is no other country with the upward mobility we have in the United States.

I agree with this statement. I don't think it is condescending., My father owned a small plumbing company. He always told me if you are going to do something, be the best at it that you can be and there is pride in that. I think there is a ton of truth to that.

As for the causes of the last crash, who do you feel like blaming today? Its like the Kennedy assasination, I can change the narrative to indict almost any of the usual suspects. The rich? The bankers? Wallstreet? The political class? The capitalist system? Socialism? The mixed economy? Fiat money?

Personally, I think America has lost touch with the idea that you gain wealth through production. Making things. The things don't have to be tangible, it can be intellectual, and even investments can bring about wealth if they provide a real value.

But instead, after the tech boom, we tried to prop up the economy not by doing work or creating value, but by turning houses, by stimulating people to buy crap, by pushing banks to loan to people who didn't need loans, and by loaning money to those people and then selling those bundled loans to people wanting to make money by buying and selling that which they don't understand.

Ultimately, this is a problem that has developed with the American work ethic, and that indicts pretty much everyone, especially career students with a tendency to discuss politics on the internet.

How do we get out of this mess?

Geez, that is actually the simplest question of all. Simple answer, but its not what is going to be popular in a climate of blame.

We do what we used to do. We make stuff. We go to work. When we sell something, it should have a value greater to the buyer than it did to the seller - that is how value is created. We stop stimulating, we stop spending, we stop looking for a savior, we stop looking for excuses, we man up and do what Americans do. Innovate. Produce. We have 200 billion Americans with skills, education, talent, and the desire to provide all that; and we have the same amount of Americans willing to pay for those skills, that education, that talent, ect. All we have to really do is remove the brakes. Say it wont be a ponzi scheme this time. There are no more free lunches, no more get rich quick schemes, we are going to do this the old fashioned way - but it will work. That is what I think about the economy.

[keithdog]

Originally Posted by WTL

This is the first time I have clicked on this discussion. First off, I don't see the need for the deer eating popcorn type stuff. People whine about those who discuss politics, but it is essential to a free and prosperous nation that we come together to try and create some consensus.

2nd thing I would say is that people are largely influenced by their backgrounds. One of the problems of modern society is that it is so complex that we are forced to take experts on face value for 98% of whats going on out there, because nobody has the time to become an expert on everything.

And so, we blame the economy on the rich writing more loans, or gas prices rising 3 fold on Obama. But this story is more complex.

So with that out of the way, I offer a few shots. Top, thankyou for your service. My Dad also served in vietnam, and like him I have become anti-war over the past several years. But what do you think of our involvement in Libya? What about having bases in Germany, Japan, and over 100 other countries? Should we not just pull back, and if we don't immediatly, as Obama promised, does that not stain his presidency just as blood red as it did Bush's?



I agree with this statement. I don't think it is condescending., My father owned a small plumbing company. He always told me if you are going to do something, be the best at it that you can be and there is pride in that. I think there is a ton of truth to that.

As for the causes of the last crash, who do you feel like blaming today? Its like the Kennedy assasination, I can change the narrative to indict almost any of the usual suspects. The rich? The bankers? Wallstreet? The political class? The capitalist system? Socialism? The mixed economy? Fiat money?

Personally, I think America has lost touch with the idea that you gain wealth through production. Making things. The things don't have to be tangible, it can be intellectual, and even investments can bring about wealth if they provide a real value.

But instead, after the tech boom, we tried to prop up the economy not by doing work or creating value, but by turning houses, by stimulating people to buy crap, by pushing banks to loan to people who didn't need loans, and by loaning money to those people and then selling those bundled loans to people wanting to make money by buying and selling that which they don't understand.

Ultimately, this is a problem that has developed with the American work ethic, and that indicts pretty much everyone, especially career students with a tendency to discuss politics on the internet.

How do we get out of this mess?

Geez, that is actually the simplest question of all. Simple answer, but its not what is going to be popular in a climate of blame.

We do what we used to do. We make stuff. We go to work. When we sell something, it should have a value greater to the buyer than it did to the seller - that is how value is created. We stop stimulating, we stop spending, we stop looking for a savior, we stop looking for excuses, we man up and do what Americans do. Innovate. Produce. We have 200 billion Americans with skills, education, talent, and the desire to provide all that; and we have the same amount of Americans willing to pay for those skills, that education, that talent, ect. All we have to really do is remove the brakes. Say it wont be a ponzi scheme this time. There are no more free lunches, no more get rich quick schemes, we are going to do this the old fashioned way - but it will work. That is what I think about the economy.

I agree with everything you said here Billy. All common sense stuff amd a lot of truth. All I'd like to add is that the Goverment needs to get out of businesses way, reduce all the numerous restrictions, and hand tying policies and let business do what it does best. Compete, develope, employ, and create wealth.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by WTL

First off, I don't see the need for the deer eating popcorn type stuff. People whine about those who discuss politics, but it is essential to a free and prosperous nation that we come together to try and create some consensus.

Agreed. This is "Non-Fishing Related Talk," right?

especially career students with a tendency to discuss politics on the internet.

Okay....serious LOL material there.

[Top Tiger]

WTL, you make very good points.
we need to make things in THIS country, not Viet Nam, not China or some other third world labor camp. Business should be offered incentives to re-open factories and other material producing facilities in the US and hire American workers to staff them. Perhaps a little less profit and a little more pride in "Made on the U.S.A" emblem.
As far as govt. getting out of businesses way--- Acid rain and Love Canal come right to mind.
Plain old simple greed got us into this mess and pandering to that greed does nothing to alleviate the problem. Politicians on both sides of the aisle are guilty of this and it is truly sickening.

[nofearengineer]

In the interest of not proliferating more untruths...

The whole acid rain thing was much ado about nothing. Like Global Warming, Climate Change, etc. it was merely an attempt to kill "Big Energy". Pictures of dead trees on mountain tops were circulated ad nauseum as proof that coal plants were killing the environment, with very little proof. Then they would find an alpine lake here or there where there weren't as many trout as there seemed to be in years past, and voila!, acid rain must have done it. If you think they rushed to judgement on Global Warming, the exact same thing was done over acid rain, CFC's destroying the ozone layer, etc. It continues to this day, and you can find it anywhere a lawyer or a politician can make some money off of it.

Like Love Canal.

Government, not business, caused the Love Canal scandal, using the greed of the populace to fund more spending and bureaucracy. This guy is dead on in his assessment.
http://fumento.com/agent/lovecanal.html

[bassboogieman]

[Top Tiger]

NFE, the 2 paint jobs that I had to give my car in Houston lay waste to your acid rain is a hoax theory. Little blister spots on the car after the rain, only got worse after time. The state of North Carolina has taken the TVA to federal court
over the acid rain produced in coal fired plants in TN. destroying things here in the mountains of western North Carolina. All I hear from you is Big business talking points on almost any issue. It's obvious that you are the one who has been completely "indoctrinated". You have spouted nothing but the tea party line since this discussion started. I've not heard an original idea from you yet.I'm sure it was "red" Kool-Aid.

[nofearengineer]

You're right. Two bad paint jobs constitute absolute, undeniable proof of acid rain. Either that, or you're just a bad painter.

While I am indisputably a crappy painter, I do have a solid knowledge of water chemistry. The average pH of non-polluted rain is 5.6 Did you know that? It's already acidic.

The case for acid rain is a lot like a bad infomercial where the guy cuts the bread with the bad knife, and smashes it down with his other hand to show how dull the knife is.

I can't help it that the Tea Party agrees with me. My beliefs are what they are. I held them long before the Tea Party was formed.

[Top Tiger]

It must have been me on the first paint job. Damn, I bought a new broom and everything. The second one was when the owner of the body shop told me that it was acid rain and that there were a WHOLE lot more cases just like mine. It must have been my bad technique that caused the same problem on my dad's car in Pittsburgh, 1200 miles away. Funny though, the paint and body shop there told him the same thing that mine did to me in Houston. I wonder why.
But I really find it hard to believe that the state of NC thinks that I'm so bad a painter that they find it necessary to sue the TVA over acid rain.

[bassboogieman]

I can solve the acid rain issue - Stop burning coal. Then you'll have no electricity, everyone will be so freakin' happy. Except the coal miners who will be unemployed. More to collect those unemployment checks. You want electric - build a nuclear plant - but not in "my backyard". Oil fired generation is not economical, so that's out and it would drive the price of gasoline through the roof. Hydro power - yeah the rivers and lakes are dryin' up so that's out. Wind generation is so undependable, unless maybe we set a windmill in front of a few of you, the hot air might just generate enough electric to run a micowave and generate some radiation. Is anyone willing to give up their luxuries provided by electricy, or our combustion engine toys, etc. NO way, just like our politicians y'all been yapping about. You are all part of the problem and not part of the solution, so why don't you just stop slinging your childish barbs at one another and get back to discussing something productive - like fishing.

P.S. I also personally accept as Gospel anything I'm told by another providing me a service - like a mechanic, plumber, electrician, USED CAR SALESMAN (especially, there's an honest human being), etc. who may have some financial gain in a "little white lie" or spin some information to his favor. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, how 'bout you?

[nofearengineer]

Bruce,

I hereby call for you to be taxed of your Wafflerod, and it be sent to me as soon as possible. Only then will the sea levels start to fall.

[nobass]

top tiger you said you live in houston. not 100 percent sure but is ther not a lot of oil refineries and chemical plants thier , no doubt you did have some sort of acid rain. do to you location as far as world wide not 100 percent sure on that theory, i dop believe there is climate change wheather its man made of just the earths cycle of nature,i do not know enough to render a intelligent decision on that.. but got to agree with kdog we need to start talking and telling the dc folks piss or get off the pot. we are tired of you screw balls doing what you think is right and not wants right for the people not just special intertest groups. they seem to forget they work for we do not work for them