Do you really get what you pay for? (Rods) - Page 2

Vegasspider · 10-07-09, 03:56 PM

Your about $20k off of your item 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

1. They must own a $40,000 fiberglass bass boat, or develop an inferiority complex about it.

bassboogieman · 10-07-09, 04:11 PM

You got most if it right NFE

but I think you went overboard with this one

Quote:

They must have expensive rods and reels, because that's what the pros use

Most of the "pros" do not use the top-of-line, "PREMIUM" rods. They are mostly for us amatuer consumers, who buy into the hype. YES, I'm guilty.

Check the deck of most the pros on either BASS or FLW and they're mostly using "mid-range" rods & reels. Pick any brand, you'll find some pro using it. I've not seen many pro's using Loomis GLX, Kistler LTX, Diawa Steeze, St. Croix Tourn. Elites, ETC. Most are using the IMX, LTA or Magnesium, Avids, ETC. Some DO, but MOST - do not.

Rick Clunn uses his signature BPS rods and reels - I saw a rod that was taken right out of his rod locker at Amistad earlier this year, still had a spinnerbait attached to it, which was signed and donated to a charity event we had here on the Northeast River (MD). KVD uses a lot of his signature Quantum rod & reels. Ike does have a few Steeze combos, but he uses a lot of the Light & Tough Bass Rods. So enough of that.

It's us "wannabees" that buy the "good stuff" because it helps us in our fishing as our skills are not honed to the level of the touring pros. It builds our confidence and helps improve our skills. I totally believe it boils down to the very basic premise that: A pro with two Ugly Sticks will out fish most recreational fishermen with a dozen GLX's (example only, insert whatever premium stick that blows yer dress up), because the pro's skill is such that it surpasses what equipment can compensate for in the recreational fisherman. And conversly - take two equally skilled recreational fisherman and give one a dozen Ugly Sticks and the other a dozen GLX's and the GLX equiped guy will out perforn the Ugly Stick guy most days (you MUST compensate for the luck factor).

No one has said you cannot catch fish with entry level equipment, you certainly can. But those of us that have bought into the "premium" rod idea, can see a difference it the detection of bites, composition of bottom or cover that we absolutely could not with what we used before investing our money. Premium sticks are lighter than less expensive rods, not a big issue with "young bucks", but it is easier on old arthritic guys like me to use the lighter gear and get through and enjoy an entire day on the water. The advantages are many, but do not apply equally to all users.

Our casting distance and accuracy improves also. I absolutely swear that last point IS fact, and I'm certain some of you will want to beat me with a stick for the confession that follows. I admit I have used that to my advantage when fishing Club tournaments with a non-boating member on the back deck. I can hit targets 10 -20 feet beyond what most of the guys on the back can reach, and call it what you will but I've done it - kept a competitor "out of range". I don't have to position my boat to freeze out the back deck (which is un-sportsman like for most Club events and can result in a DQ). My guy on the back deck is fishing from the same boat position, he just can't reach it and that's through no fault of mine. I will not position my boat closer to a target and possibly spook fish, because the guy on the back can't reach a target with his choice of equipment. Recreational fishing - I'm much nicer and would move in, but in a tournament situation, if I can reach it and the other guy can't - too bad for him.

So does using "premium" rods and reels give me an edge - I think so. I don't tournament fish much anymore, I find the friendlier, calmer, recreational side of fishing, much more enjoyable. But I still like my choice in equipment, and it makes my day on the water more enjoyable also.

Kevin · 10-07-09, 06:15 PM

This has been a fantastic discussion and I've enjoyed hearing everyone's opinions on this subject. I figured I'd chime in and share some of my thoughts regarding expensive rods.

Like many others on here, I have accumulated a vast array of rods, both in style and price. While I don't fish any rods that are $30-$40 dollars (I'm certainly not knocking rods from that price range.. I've fished them before), I do fish some rods that are as little as $60, and have rods (both production and custom) that are so called, "top of the line" that sell for over $400+.

Since variety is the spice of life (at least for me!), I've never liked sticking with one particular brand, like many Pro's suggest you to do, for reasons of "standardized feel and performance". This theory of sticking to one brand of rod for the purposes of "standardized feel" is akin to your irons in golf... it's probably better to own the entire line of irons from Taylormade, than to have an 8-iron from Taylormade, a 9-iron from Callaway and a Pitching Wedge from Nike. And by the way, Taylormade has the best Pitching Wedge... but whatever you do, DO NOT buy their 10-iron.. it's terrible.

Do I think rods are akin to your golf irons in this respect? No. I wouldn't hesitate to encourage another angler to buy a hodge podge of brands in lieu of buying all rods from one brand. Any advantage gained from "standardized feel" is most certainly one of comfort, not one of competitiveness.

Now onto the discussion of price, and what price gives you in the rod world.

nofearengineer used a great term, and one that is especially applicable to certain fishing products (if not all)... "The Law of Diminishing Returns". This merely states the price of a good, let's call it Widget A (God, my econ professor would be so proud), is NOT directly proportional to the quality of Widget A, but rather to either the labor hours used to build Widget A, or an intentional price hike from the manufacturer to induce a "Snob Effect" for Widget A (snob effect is an actual economics term, so don't think I'm calling anyone here a snob!). The Snob Effect can be created with Velben goods (now I'm just being funny), which are nothing more than high-priced goods that are valued more as status symbols than for their craftsmanship or function. The manufacturer places a ridiculous price tag on the Velben good to attract snobs who seek elite status. Anyone here have a wife or girlfriend that bought a pair of sunglasses that cost over $300? And they weren't even polarized!!!

Have you all ever looked at the price of Michael Jordan's basketball shoes? Some are well over $150 dollars. An independent Quality-Control firm inspected a pair of his high-end shoes and came to the conclusion that of all the costs of materials, construction and labor, the most expensive part of his shoes was the BOX! The box the shoes came in was more expensive than the shoes themselves. Another basketball player's shoes (Stephon Marburry), which are known to be cheap (like $19 bucks), were compared by this firm to the pair of Jordan's, and found to be similar in quality of materials and craftsmanship, except for the box.. it was a cheap box they said.

Sorry for going off on a tangent here (I've had fun if you haven't been able to tell), but I think all these points, which are just rehashes of what others have said in this thread, lay out some principle economics of how to look at these uber-expensive goods (whether they are rods, reels, golf irons or Jordan's sneakers).

I also think a lot of anglers look at a rod that sells for $300 and see its components as "extremely expensive". To you they are! But that $300 rod might only cost the manufacturer $30 bucks to make. Those NASA-engineered line guides and those built in flux capacitors weren't delivered by a BRINKS truck, as many manufacturers would love you to believe.

Wow, Kevin.. you're really not painting a pretty picture for expensive rods!

Not true. I like $500 sticks just as much as the next guy. And let's face it, we all want to be snobs to a certain extent with our tackle. It happens in golf, it happens with muscle cars, it happens with guns and it happens BIG TIME in fishing. I'm all for it! If you have some side cash to splurge and want to know what it's like to pick a $500 rod off your front deck to fish with, that's great. I've bought for the very same reason and would like to see others do so as well. It's fun!! You do get some added, albeit marginal, confidence with high-end gear, and you'll look oh so good chunking that $2 crankbait into the trees.

Ahhh... okay Kevin. Now I see. I knew you would be a fan boy for high end rods!

No, no, no. I don't recommend all super expensive rods. I think it's fun to splurge every once in awhile and buy some for fun and to try out, but I'm happy with moderately-priced rods and so should everyone else.

Like I've mentioned above, I own several $400+ rods and many under $200. Do I gravitate towards the expensive models? No, I don't. My favorite rod is one that is under $200. I have numerous complaints about some of my ultra expensive rods as well, that I don't have with some of my affordable rods.

Sensitivity has always been the selling point for high-end rods, but honestly, there isn't much gain in sensitivity going from a $200 rod to a $300 rod, or $400 rod. Again, that law of diminishing returns take over.

So what about those cheapo $100 rods Kevin?!?!?

There is nothing wrong with a $100 rod. There are many great $100 rods on the market. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a $100 rod, nor should you.

What I'd really like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on, is where the inflection point is on the graph showing the diminishing returns for rods. In other words, at what price point do we find that "sweet spot" of quality and value? I tend to believe it is less than $200, though the anglers I tend to talk to think it's much higher. What are your thoughts?

Skeet Reese recently designed a series of rods for Wright & McGill (Tessera), and in his personal description of his rods, he's had to lead with the assertion that his rods are not cheap merely because they cost under $100, and that he wouldn't have designed a rod that wasn't sensitive enough for him to compete at the highest level against the likes of the KVD's and so on. Looks like Skeet Reese is the new Stephon Marburry of the rod world. One of the best anglers on the planet uses (and designed) rods that cost less than 100 bucks. If you put some Fuji guides on a broom stick, Skeet would probably still feel more bites than 99% of the anglers out there.

I've had a lot of fun with this thread and have really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. I think it'd be interesting to hear opinions on where that "sweet spot" is, in terms of price, where ultimate value and quality intersect.

Take care,
Kevin Scarselli
BassFishin.Com

CMorg · 10-07-09, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

nofearengineer used a great term, and one that is especially applicable to certain fishing products (if not all)... "The Law of Diminishing Returns". This merely states the price of a good, let's call it Widget A (God, my econ professor would be so proud), is NOT directly proportional to the quality of Widget A, but rather to either the labor hours used to build Widget A, or an intentional price hike from the manufacturer to induce a "Snob Effect" for Widget A (snob effect is an actual economics term, so don't think I'm calling anyone here a snob!). The Snob Effect can be created with Velben goods (now I'm just being funny), which are nothing more than high-priced goods that are valued more as status symbols than for their craftsmanship or function. The manufacturer places a ridiculous price tag on the Velben good to attract snobs who seek elite status. Anyone here have a wife or girlfriend that bought a pair of sunglasses that cost over $300? And they weren't even polarized!!!

True story , my wife just today bought some Gucci's...

Anyway , I try not to spend anymore than 200.00 for any rod.

islandbass · 10-07-09, 07:12 PM

There isn't anything I found myself disagreeing with in your post, Kevin. Thanks for a well written piece.

I think and this is JMHO, that the "sweet spot" of value or bang for the buck is probably at the point where rods start sporting either Hard Loy or Alconite Guides (there is a bit of crossover) but both are certainly braid and bass worthy. At this time it appears that the $70 - $150 rod with these guides is most likely provide exceptional return for the buck.

Spinning Reels - Fortunately, $100 buys a whole lot of spinning reel. The new Shimano Sahara outdoes the well loved Symetre FI (old symetre) for the same $79.00 price of the old symetre. For the purposes of bass fishing, you don't need more(but of course you can exceed it). So $70-100 is the sweet spot for a spinning reel IMHO.

Casting Reels - Hmmm.... Getting what you pay really rings true hear. One thing I learned is that once you try a reel in a certain class, it is really hard to go backward. For example, if you started with a Curado in your hands as your first reel, a Ciriolis is a reel you would snobbishly refuse (and point your nose up and and turn away) to give a second look. Human nature perhaps? For my needs, I believe that a decent casting reel that will stand up to what you can dish out without breaking the bank is the $99-120 range, or the Revo S/Citica E class.

These classes of rods and reels IMHO, once again would, could, and should serve the most budget minded of us in which the return of performance for the buck is optimum. Everything above this class for rods and reels is undeniably awesome to have and might improve fishing pleasure, BUT is not necessary to enjoy fishing.

-ib

I also think that this has been one of the coolest subjects to discuss in a while.

Vegasspider · 10-07-09, 08:21 PM

And that is why G Loomis is the best! They have mid range pricing with exceptional feel and consistency.

TnTom · 10-07-09, 09:48 PM

I make my own rods and can't help drooling over the $300 -$400-$500 rack at BPS when I go there (about once a year when I'm craving a Chicago HotDog out front) until I take a closer look and l'd say better than 60% look like they were finished by a bunch of first time rod builders (I apologize, I've seen first time builders build as nice a rod as any G_Loomis or any other out there.

So much of the stuff is jobbed out I would bet hardly any of it is wrapped in the U.S (and that which is, is probably jobbed out).

No doubt the blanks meet certain standards and the rest of the components must meet certain levels of quality but I know for a fact that they send out blanks in lots of k's to be built.

Next time your in the store spend an hour and really look at the detail. How flat is the apoxy, any spaces in the thread wraps, grade of cork, guide alignment? Hold the blank and twist the grip and see if it spins or brakes loose.

Not saying they aren't good (well functioning) rods but I am saying that if for someone to spend $300+ dollars for a rod... it better LOOK like its worth $300.

You can't tell you'll like the way it casts till you get to the water but you'd think the big guys should have to try a little harder like being sure their product hits the shelf well finished.

I showed a hand full of rods to a BPS salesman that they had in the $300-$400 rack and he took them off the floor. I'm sure they went out about half price (or full price

).

Ive gone through a lot of $100-$150 dollar rods where I couldn't find a flaw. If I were to buy a rod I'd sure start there.

It wouldn't make sense for a company to develop a flawless assembly and finishing process and cut the cost in the cost of the blank. If the company has any history in the industry they can sell a rod for $150.00 and give you a rod that will meet your any need and make it look nice to and still make a 50% profit on every rod.

You cant take 10 rods off the shelf and rig them and think they will cast the same. Every factory rod of the same model is built with the same guide spacing criteria and no 2 blanks are the same. If it were worth $400 someone would have had to take the time to be sure the blank was built to its greatest potential. They can afford to assure a batch meets certain standards. If you like paying $300-$400 for a batch rod........?

BeaverIslander · 10-07-09, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I think you probably get what you pay for (I've never owned a G. Loomis rod, take with a grain of salt), but as with any leisure activity, fishing gear is subject to the law of diminishing returns.

Is a $300 rod twice as good as a $150 rod or four times as good as a $75 rod? Probably not, but once you hit a certain high level of quality or performance, the incremental cost to get that extra 10-20% improvement just goes up and up. Basically, if you can't get that level of performance for less anywhere else, and it's worth it to you personally, I guess you do get what you pay for.

These are my thoughts exactly. I really feel the point of diminishing returns is about $150-200 for any rod or reel. At that point you're better off setting the extra money aside towards your next combo suited to another technique. However I do make exceptions for combos in which sensitivity is extremely important. I have a Loomis Mossyback for casting and pitching jigs/Texas rig worms, and a GLX for tubes/shakeyhead worms. Otherwise, St Croix Premium and Avid rods are good enough for me for the rest; cranks, spinners, frogs, buzzers, topwater plugs, etc. I always laugh when I hear or see a person using a $400 rod for tossing frogs or buzzbaits.

Mac2 · 10-08-09, 07:27 AM

I think it's similar to creating perpetual motion, the industry works diligently in trying to produce "constant need". This sometimes actually benefits via new creations, but can also offer false plateaus at other times. If a fisherman is good at locating fish, he'll catch many bass.
If he can turn on the lithargic, neutral bass too, he'll catch more. Now, if his rod is a 35 dollar graphite, he might miss a few, but if he concentrates it might be just a couple compared to catching on a high end rod.

Now the argument can be made that the couple he missed by using the less sensative rod, were trophy bass, huge fish.....something difficult to prove, but possible. On the other end, his ability to locate and catch will still prove to catch numbers of fish, some of which will be trophy fish as well. Some of the lower end, 35 dollar rods have made great advances over the years and have become quality rods without having quality prices. Not many, for certain, but there are a few.

In short, the difference is in the ability and concentration of the fisherman and having a reasonable quality of gear certainly helps, but high end really isn't necessary to do well if a person is selective.

At the bait shop, a fellow handed me a baitcaster rod and reel that had a small bullet weight tied to the end of the line. I closed my eyes, as directed, and slowly dragged the weight across the tile floor....I could feel the weight as it crossed each tiny seam in the tiles' edges. I am still amazed at what sensitivity was produced. If a bass made a similar tic with the same small degree of input with the wave action hitting the line and possibly the wind and the rocking of the boat....I still don't know if I would have picked up on the touch.....but in the baitshop, it really was amazing. I should obviously go back with my rod and reel and try the same test across the tile.

woody · 10-08-09, 08:52 AM

There's no doubt about it. That the "No Questions Asked" return policy that a certain rod builder offers is a -good thing- for us anglers. But as you know with most products and services, they do not come without cost to you the consumer. Yes, what I am saying is that the Rod Builder is passing along the cost of this service to you when you buy one of their rods. This type of marketing kinda reminds me of how Sears has always offered a lifetime return policy on Craftsmen tools; if you ever break it, return it for a new one. These manufacturers are not only selling a well made product, but also a gaurantee to go along with it.

So to your question, I answer "yes", that is if you use the manufacturer's return policy for a new replacement rod a time or two.

-Mark

riverfisher · 10-08-09, 09:14 AM

I think Chris Farley put this warranty best in a line from Tommy Boy "Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel allllllllll warm and toasty inside. Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of ****. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time."

Whenever I hear anything about warranties I always think about this part of the Movie!!

Sorry

rodnreel · 10-08-09, 11:15 AM

LOL, Tommy Boy is such a great movie...."Quit playing with your dingy"

The point of diminishing return for me would be right around $150-200. I think it all comes down to supply and demand. As long as there are people out there willing to buy a $400+ rod, rod manufacturers will continue making them. Greed drives the beast, and in my opinion that's what our economy is. Businesses have grown so large they have to find ways to make enough money to sustain themselves. Most of this "survival" is marketing IMO. Many of us, including myself, have seen pros using top end products and heard companies preach the benefits of using top end gear and we become accustomed to thinking that these products will MAKE US BETTER ANGLERS. An ultra sensitive rod and reel combo teamed up with $15 dollar crankbaits won't catch bass if you don't know where to find bass or how to work that crankbait.

I've only been a member of this site for a short time, and I love what I read. And I've seen some posters on here mention to others who are in a funk that it's not always catching fish that matters. Sometimes it's just enough to be out on the water and able to mentally and physically fish that is most important. Has fishing become more about the quality and price of the equipment we use rather than the appreciation for the animals we catch?

woody · 10-08-09, 12:01 PM

Personally, I wouldn't pay $400 for a rod. But I would consider spending $220 on one of their GL3 rods with the intentions of using their Xpeditor services.

-Mark

nofearengineer · 10-08-09, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodnreel

Greed drives the beast, and in my opinion that's what our economy is.

I don't think it's greed, per se, but one's man's profit motive is another man's greed, I guess. It's like a conversation I had with another site member (and fellow musician) about playing music professionally. His point was that since I admitted I got into music to pick up hot chicks (man, oh man....) maybe I didn't really love music. My attitude was that doing anything to make money turned it into a business, and that's what businesses are for...making money...period. In essence, playing music to meet women is no more or less sinister than making money.

I wouldn't want to do anything I really truly loved for money (maybe strongly enjoyed would be okay

), because making money has to be the prime motivation. So while some of us tend to curse business for making money, who wants to lose money? I, for one am glad that manufacturers continue to put out lots of new products for me to choose from. I'm smart enough (well, usually heh) to sift the gems from the crap.

Quote:

Businesses have grown so large they have to find ways to make enough money to sustain themselves.

I do tend to agree with you here in a sense. Sometimes it seems that while most companies grow and achieve success by filling a market need, when those companies get old, fat, and lazy, some of them tend to try to drive the market with clever marketing, rather than react to it.

Quote:

I've only been a member of this site for a short time, and I love what I read. And I've seen some posters on here mention to others who are in a funk that it's not always catching fish that matters. Sometimes it's just enough to be out on the water and able to mentally and physically fish that is most important. Has fishing become more about the quality and price of the equipment we use rather than the appreciation for the animals we catch?

You're right on there. Before I about killed myself yesterday, my buddy was apologizing constantly for us not catching any fish at the spot he took me to. I tried to remind him that I was having fun just casting and netting baitfish. I love fishing, even when I'm not catching. I wish more people were like that.

rodnreel · 10-08-09, 12:37 PM

I'm wasn't trying to curse those companies for making money. I can't fault anyone for trying to make a buck the way our economy is right now. But IMO the manufacturers are the ones creating the "need" through advertising/marketing. We see the pros using expensive equipment and all the ads about these new breakthrough technologies, and we think that for us to be successful we have to have the same stuff. I just see that as a false sense of need. Cudos to all those marketing teams

zooker · 10-08-09, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Is a $300 rod twice as good as a $150 rod or four times as good as a $75 rod? .

In a G-stick you get an outstanding feel and a light weight. However when you lose weight and increase feel you get a brittle stick that will break..quite easily I have done it, I know. Would I buy another g-stick? Doubt it... a $150 stick is going to give you good feel though slightly. We are talking ounces here-heavier..the up side is you still get the same eyes and reel seat as the $300 rod with a less likely hood of it snapping like a twig..

The only reason I would drop more than $150 on a rod is if it is VERY custom made to my specks...

zooker

BigBassin144 · 10-08-09, 04:12 PM

This is kind of how I think of prices on rods.

20-50 bucks is like the walmart rods. Ugly Sticks, lightning rods, Shimano Voltaeus, etc. Personally, I've never used one for bass fishing, so I cannot attest to their sensitivity, or quality.

60-120 bucks in the "value" price range. This has just been flooded this year, with Abu's new Vendetta, the new Skeet Reese Tessera, St. Croix Mojo Bass, Falcon Bucoo, Kistler Carbon Steel, Shimano Clarus & Compre, etc. I think this is the most popular price range, and I do think you get your money's worth, especially now that there is so much competition in the range. All the competition is going to make companies build better rods in the price range. I've used and own rods in the price range and they work great.

150-250 bucks is the beginning of the high end stuff. Shimano Crucial & Cumara, Daiwa Zillion, carrot sticks, Falcon Cara, Loomis GL3 & most of the IMX rods, Kistler Argon & Helium LTA, St Croix. Avid & some Tourney series. I think there is where you get the most for your money. At this point, you're getting (on most rods) the top of the line materials (SiC or comparable guides, quality reel seats, high grade cork, etc). I also think this is the best blend of lightness, strength and sensitivity for the money. I've fished with and own rods in this category and I'm very happy with most of them.

300+ bucks is the super high end. The Daiwa Steez, Loomis GLX, St Croix Legend Xtreme, Kistler Helium LTX, and pretty much any JDM rod. I don't own any rods this expensive, nor have I fished with any. I have handled a couple including the LTX and the Steez. Without reels, my Loomis IMX and the Shimano Cumara are both better balanced IMO than either the Steez or LTX.

Like I said, I think you get your money's worth in the "value" price range, but the most for your money is the $150-250 range.

BB

Vegasspider · 10-08-09, 09:47 PM

A St. Croix rep at a gun and sports show was demonstrating true way to test feel is to tie 10lb mono to the tip guide. (This was pre braid days, I would think braid would better to use now) Tie direct to tip and not through the eyes to the reel. Remove the reel all together. Using a tear drop sinker find a surface to drag the weight across. (Something with a change in texture, lip etc. Carpet to tile or concrete to grass etc.) You should do this left to right with only a pulling motion and not reeling. I do it with my arms extended not locked out straight. About the same as I would while fishing. It works but so does any test you use to test sensitivity.

The casting test I use for sensitivity it to sink a coke can in the bottom of my pool and cast across the can and then reel up to can and pull not reel over the can. A good rod I can feel the weight fall off the can. A bad one not so much. The reason I preach G Loomis is I can feel it with the 7’7” Bronze backs the same as a 6”6” GLX. I keep a couple of ugly sticks around for the kids or relatives from Indiana and I cannot only not feel the fall I can’t feel the drag. I think this fits what you get what you pay for – but the price difference in Bronze backs and GLX’s – well this comes down to preference or what Kevin said, perhaps a treat ones self or other benefits. I still say if I had it all to start over with, I would have spent less on combos and more on maps and baits.

Vegasspider · 10-08-09, 09:50 PM

I agree the "Loomis IMX and the Shimano Cumara" is a very balanced combo. Sorry if my first reply came off sarcastic I was really agreeing with you. I ment to apply either or is a perfect combo. I have a Cumra its the only rod other than G Loomis I keep on the boat. I like the handle and tigger feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBassin144

This is kind of how I think of prices on rods.

20-50 bucks is like the walmart rods. Ugly Sticks, lightning rods, Shimano Voltaeus, etc. Personally, I've never used one for bass fishing, so I cannot attest to their sensitivity, or quality.

60-120 bucks in the "value" price range. This has just been flooded this year, with Abu's new Vendetta, the new Skeet Reese Tessera, St. Croix Mojo Bass, Falcon Bucoo, Kistler Carbon Steel, Shimano Clarus & Compre, etc. I think this is the most popular price range, and I do think you get your money's worth, especially now that there is so much competition in the range. All the competition is going to make companies build better rods in the price range. I've used and own rods in the price range and they work great.

150-250 bucks is the beginning of the high end stuff. Shimano Crucial & Cumara, Daiwa Zillion, carrot sticks, Falcon Cara, Loomis GL3 & most of the IMX rods, Kistler Argon & Helium LTA, St Croix. Avid & some Tourney series. I think there is where you get the most for your money. At this point, you're getting (on most rods) the top of the line materials (SiC or comparable guides, quality reel seats, high grade cork, etc). I also think this is the best blend of lightness, strength and sensitivity for the money. I've fished with and own rods in this category and I'm very happy with most of them.

300+ bucks is the super high end. The Daiwa Steez, Loomis GLX, St Croix Legend Xtreme, Kistler Helium LTX, and pretty much any JDM rod. I don't own any rods this expensive, nor have I fished with any. I have handled a couple including the LTX and the Steez. Without reels, my Loomis IMX and the Shimano Cumara are both better balanced IMO than either the Steez or LTX.

Like I said, I think you get your money's worth in the "value" price range, but the most for your money is the $150-250 range.

BB

BeaverIslander · 10-08-09, 10:15 PM

I picked up a Cumara today. Might be my next reel I buy.

Cincinnati Kid · 10-08-09, 10:25 PM

I am glad I asked you guys......if I had this same conversation with myself my wife would have locked me up.

Much appreciation for the great responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cincinnati Kid

.......got me thinking.......and I said to myself "self, when you purchase new rods do you really need to spend ~$250 for one?" Instead of answering myself, I thought I would ask you guys on this forum.

Jigger · 10-09-09, 11:10 AM

G. Loomis makes a great rod. I have a crankbait rod that I love. I've had one for 15 years or so. I broke the tip off my first one trying to poke a crankbait off a submerged log. I sent it back and they sent me a brand new one free and they paid the freight. I don't know if they'll still do that or not.

Are they worth the money? I'd say you do not get the most bang for your buck with a G. Loomis but if you've got the dough and your willing to part with it, you simply cannot beat G. Loomis quality, weight and sensitivity. My understanding is that they are one of the few companies that designs and manufactures their own rod blanks. Most other companies buy rod blanks from manufacturers and then add the grips, reel seats and wrap the rod guides. Am I correct here? I think I am.

Best bang for the buck goes to Falcon Original series. I've probably got 15 of them. They're very well made and sensitive. Not as light as some other rods. If I switched companies, I'd look seriously at St. Croix as my work horse rods.

TnTom · 10-09-09, 01:33 PM

"Note to Wholesalers:
Due to G-Loomis' abandonment of their rod blank program, Mud Hole can no longer continue to offer our existing stock of G-Loomis blanks at wholesale prices. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you."

Makes me think they are reducing the number of sub-contractors they use. I think its good for the quality control aspect but makes it a little harder for the guy that wants to build his own G-Loomis. I was sorry to see this.

Vegasspider · 10-09-09, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnTom

"Note to Wholesalers:
Due to G-Loomis' abandonment of their rod blank program, Mud Hole can no longer continue to offer our existing stock of G-Loomis blanks at wholesale prices. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you."

Makes me think they are reducing the number of sub-contractors they use. I think its good for the quality control aspect but makes it a little harder for the guy that wants to build his own G-Loomis. I was sorry to see this.

I seen that G Loomis was going to do that sometime back. I am a little unclear what that represents in regards to is it a cost savings for the company or just prefer to keep things in house? Either way if a builder has a following and that following is related to GL blanks it kind of sucks for them.

TnTom · 10-09-09, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegasspider

I seen that G Loomis was going to do that sometime back. I am a little unclear what that represents in regards to is it a cost savings for the company or just prefer to keep things in house? Either way if a builder has a following and that following is related to GL blanks it kind of sucks for them.

I'm guessing whatever is out there will get grabbed up pretty fast, I don't have any but wish I did. It's probably not any cheaper to bring in house what they have jobbed out if that's actually what they are doing. It may be that they won't change that part of it but all that will be available is a finished rod.

They do make the blanks themselves so that aspect of the quality shouldn't change. If they do job out the assembly and I'm guessing they do just from the variation I see in the stores by bringing it back inside the quality control is easier to control

The original question as to getting what you pay for. I think you do in most cases. Just sometimes its gets a little unclear what the objective is, and its all relative to whats realistic. How much is a lot?

10-07-09, 07:12 PM	#30
islandbass BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: WA State Posts: 1,783	There isn't anything I found myself disagreeing with in your post, Kevin. Thanks for a well written piece. I think and this is JMHO, that the "sweet spot" of value or bang for the buck is probably at the point where rods start sporting either Hard Loy or Alconite Guides (there is a bit of crossover) but both are certainly braid and bass worthy. At this time it appears that the $70 - $150 rod with these guides is most likely provide exceptional return for the buck. Spinning Reels - Fortunately, $100 buys a whole lot of spinning reel. The new Shimano Sahara outdoes the well loved Symetre FI (old symetre) for the same $79.00 price of the old symetre. For the purposes of bass fishing, you don't need more(but of course you can exceed it). So $70-100 is the sweet spot for a spinning reel IMHO. Casting Reels - Hmmm.... Getting what you pay really rings true hear. One thing I learned is that once you try a reel in a certain class, it is really hard to go backward. For example, if you started with a Curado in your hands as your first reel, a Ciriolis is a reel you would snobbishly refuse (and point your nose up and and turn away) to give a second look. Human nature perhaps? For my needs, I believe that a decent casting reel that will stand up to what you can dish out without breaking the bank is the $99-120 range, or the Revo S/Citica E class. These classes of rods and reels IMHO, once again would, could, and should serve the most budget minded of us in which the return of performance for the buck is optimum. Everything above this class for rods and reels is undeniably awesome to have and might improve fishing pleasure, BUT is not necessary to enjoy fishing. -ib I also think that this has been one of the coolest subjects to discuss in a while. __________________ ARX "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." Doug Larson (Shimano 2005 Reel Catalog)

10-07-09, 08:21 PM	#31
Vegasspider BassFishin.Com Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 570	And that is why G Loomis is the best! They have mid range pricing with exceptional feel and consistency. Last edited by Vegasspider; 10-07-09 at 08:22 PM. Reason: wong text

10-07-09, 09:48 PM	#32
TnTom BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Woodbury Tn Posts: 119	I make my own rods and can't help drooling over the $300 -$400-$500 rack at BPS when I go there (about once a year when I'm craving a Chicago HotDog out front) until I take a closer look and l'd say better than 60% look like they were finished by a bunch of first time rod builders (I apologize, I've seen first time builders build as nice a rod as any G_Loomis or any other out there. So much of the stuff is jobbed out I would bet hardly any of it is wrapped in the U.S (and that which is, is probably jobbed out). No doubt the blanks meet certain standards and the rest of the components must meet certain levels of quality but I know for a fact that they send out blanks in lots of k's to be built. Next time your in the store spend an hour and really look at the detail. How flat is the apoxy, any spaces in the thread wraps, grade of cork, guide alignment? Hold the blank and twist the grip and see if it spins or brakes loose. Not saying they aren't good (well functioning) rods but I am saying that if for someone to spend $300+ dollars for a rod... it better LOOK like its worth $300. You can't tell you'll like the way it casts till you get to the water but you'd think the big guys should have to try a little harder like being sure their product hits the shelf well finished. I showed a hand full of rods to a BPS salesman that they had in the $300-$400 rack and he took them off the floor. I'm sure they went out about half price (or full price ). Ive gone through a lot of $100-$150 dollar rods where I couldn't find a flaw. If I were to buy a rod I'd sure start there. It wouldn't make sense for a company to develop a flawless assembly and finishing process and cut the cost in the cost of the blank. If the company has any history in the industry they can sell a rod for $150.00 and give you a rod that will meet your any need and make it look nice to and still make a 50% profit on every rod. You cant take 10 rods off the shelf and rig them and think they will cast the same. Every factory rod of the same model is built with the same guide spacing criteria and no 2 blanks are the same. If it were worth $400 someone would have had to take the time to be sure the blank was built to its greatest potential. They can afford to assure a batch meets certain standards. If you like paying $300-$400 for a batch rod........? __________________ When fishin poles are outlawed only outlaws will have fishin poles and Shimano reels. Last edited by TnTom; 10-07-09 at 10:01 PM.

10-08-09, 07:27 AM	#34
Mac2 BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 389	A Few Opinions I think it's similar to creating perpetual motion, the industry works diligently in trying to produce "constant need". This sometimes actually benefits via new creations, but can also offer false plateaus at other times. If a fisherman is good at locating fish, he'll catch many bass. If he can turn on the lithargic, neutral bass too, he'll catch more. Now, if his rod is a 35 dollar graphite, he might miss a few, but if he concentrates it might be just a couple compared to catching on a high end rod. Now the argument can be made that the couple he missed by using the less sensative rod, were trophy bass, huge fish.....something difficult to prove, but possible. On the other end, his ability to locate and catch will still prove to catch numbers of fish, some of which will be trophy fish as well. Some of the lower end, 35 dollar rods have made great advances over the years and have become quality rods without having quality prices. Not many, for certain, but there are a few. In short, the difference is in the ability and concentration of the fisherman and having a reasonable quality of gear certainly helps, but high end really isn't necessary to do well if a person is selective. At the bait shop, a fellow handed me a baitcaster rod and reel that had a small bullet weight tied to the end of the line. I closed my eyes, as directed, and slowly dragged the weight across the tile floor....I could feel the weight as it crossed each tiny seam in the tiles' edges. I am still amazed at what sensitivity was produced. If a bass made a similar tic with the same small degree of input with the wave action hitting the line and possibly the wind and the rocking of the boat....I still don't know if I would have picked up on the touch.....but in the baitshop, it really was amazing. I should obviously go back with my rod and reel and try the same test across the tile.

10-08-09, 08:52 AM	#35
woody BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Jonesville, Indiana Posts: 3,597	Cost of "No Questions Asked" Return Policy There's no doubt about it. That the "No Questions Asked" return policy that a certain rod builder offers is a -good thing- for us anglers. But as you know with most products and services, they do not come without cost to you the consumer. Yes, what I am saying is that the Rod Builder is passing along the cost of this service to you when you buy one of their rods. This type of marketing kinda reminds me of how Sears has always offered a lifetime return policy on Craftsmen tools; if you ever break it, return it for a new one. These manufacturers are not only selling a well made product, but also a gaurantee to go along with it. So to your question, I answer "yes", that is if you use the manufacturer's return policy for a new replacement rod a time or two. -Mark

10-07-09, 06:15 PM	#28
Kevin Administrator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 651	This has been a fantastic discussion and I've enjoyed hearing everyone's opinions on this subject. I figured I'd chime in and share some of my thoughts regarding expensive rods. Like many others on here, I have accumulated a vast array of rods, both in style and price. While I don't fish any rods that are $30-$40 dollars (I'm certainly not knocking rods from that price range.. I've fished them before), I do fish some rods that are as little as $60, and have rods (both production and custom) that are so called, "top of the line" that sell for over $400+. Since variety is the spice of life (at least for me!), I've never liked sticking with one particular brand, like many Pro's suggest you to do, for reasons of "standardized feel and performance". This theory of sticking to one brand of rod for the purposes of "standardized feel" is akin to your irons in golf... it's probably better to own the entire line of irons from Taylormade, than to have an 8-iron from Taylormade, a 9-iron from Callaway and a Pitching Wedge from Nike. And by the way, Taylormade has the best Pitching Wedge... but whatever you do, DO NOT buy their 10-iron.. it's terrible. Do I think rods are akin to your golf irons in this respect? No. I wouldn't hesitate to encourage another angler to buy a hodge podge of brands in lieu of buying all rods from one brand. Any advantage gained from "standardized feel" is most certainly one of comfort, not one of competitiveness. Now onto the discussion of price, and what price gives you in the rod world. nofearengineer used a great term, and one that is especially applicable to certain fishing products (if not all)... "The Law of Diminishing Returns". This merely states the price of a good, let's call it Widget A (God, my econ professor would be so proud), is NOT directly proportional to the quality of Widget A, but rather to either the labor hours used to build Widget A, or an intentional price hike from the manufacturer to induce a "Snob Effect" for Widget A (snob effect is an actual economics term, so don't think I'm calling anyone here a snob!). The Snob Effect can be created with Velben goods (now I'm just being funny), which are nothing more than high-priced goods that are valued more as status symbols than for their craftsmanship or function. The manufacturer places a ridiculous price tag on the Velben good to attract snobs who seek elite status. Anyone here have a wife or girlfriend that bought a pair of sunglasses that cost over $300? And they weren't even polarized!!! Have you all ever looked at the price of Michael Jordan's basketball shoes? Some are well over $150 dollars. An independent Quality-Control firm inspected a pair of his high-end shoes and came to the conclusion that of all the costs of materials, construction and labor, the most expensive part of his shoes was the BOX! The box the shoes came in was more expensive than the shoes themselves. Another basketball player's shoes (Stephon Marburry), which are known to be cheap (like $19 bucks), were compared by this firm to the pair of Jordan's, and found to be similar in quality of materials and craftsmanship, except for the box.. it was a cheap box they said. Sorry for going off on a tangent here (I've had fun if you haven't been able to tell), but I think all these points, which are just rehashes of what others have said in this thread, lay out some principle economics of how to look at these uber-expensive goods (whether they are rods, reels, golf irons or Jordan's sneakers). I also think a lot of anglers look at a rod that sells for $300 and see its components as "extremely expensive". To you they are! But that $300 rod might only cost the manufacturer $30 bucks to make. Those NASA-engineered line guides and those built in flux capacitors weren't delivered by a BRINKS truck, as many manufacturers would love you to believe. Wow, Kevin.. you're really not painting a pretty picture for expensive rods! Not true. I like $500 sticks just as much as the next guy. And let's face it, we all want to be snobs to a certain extent with our tackle. It happens in golf, it happens with muscle cars, it happens with guns and it happens BIG TIME in fishing. I'm all for it! If you have some side cash to splurge and want to know what it's like to pick a $500 rod off your front deck to fish with, that's great. I've bought for the very same reason and would like to see others do so as well. It's fun!! You do get some added, albeit marginal, confidence with high-end gear, and you'll look oh so good chunking that $2 crankbait into the trees. Ahhh... okay Kevin. Now I see. I knew you would be a fan boy for high end rods! No, no, no. I don't recommend all super expensive rods. I think it's fun to splurge every once in awhile and buy some for fun and to try out, but I'm happy with moderately-priced rods and so should everyone else. Like I've mentioned above, I own several $400+ rods and many under $200. Do I gravitate towards the expensive models? No, I don't. My favorite rod is one that is under $200. I have numerous complaints about some of my ultra expensive rods as well, that I don't have with some of my affordable rods. Sensitivity has always been the selling point for high-end rods, but honestly, there isn't much gain in sensitivity going from a $200 rod to a $300 rod, or $400 rod. Again, that law of diminishing returns take over. So what about those cheapo $100 rods Kevin?!?!? There is nothing wrong with a $100 rod. There are many great $100 rods on the market. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a $100 rod, nor should you. What I'd really like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on, is where the inflection point is on the graph showing the diminishing returns for rods. In other words, at what price point do we find that "sweet spot" of quality and value? I tend to believe it is less than $200, though the anglers I tend to talk to think it's much higher. What are your thoughts? Skeet Reese recently designed a series of rods for Wright & McGill (Tessera), and in his personal description of his rods, he's had to lead with the assertion that his rods are not cheap merely because they cost under $100, and that he wouldn't have designed a rod that wasn't sensitive enough for him to compete at the highest level against the likes of the KVD's and so on. Looks like Skeet Reese is the new Stephon Marburry of the rod world. One of the best anglers on the planet uses (and designed) rods that cost less than 100 bucks. If you put some Fuji guides on a broom stick, Skeet would probably still feel more bites than 99% of the anglers out there. I've had a lot of fun with this thread and have really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. I think it'd be interesting to hear opinions on where that "sweet spot" is, in terms of price, where ultimate value and quality intersect. Take care, Kevin Scarselli BassFishin.Com

10-08-09, 09:14 AM	#36
riverfisher BassFishin.Com Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Charlton, New York Posts: 92	I think Chris Farley put this warranty best in a line from Tommy Boy "Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel allllllllll warm and toasty inside. Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of ***. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time." Whenever I hear anything about warranties I always think about this part of the Movie!! Sorry Last edited by riverfisher; 10-08-09 at 09:22 AM.*

10-08-09, 11:15 AM	#37
rodnreel BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Jamestown, OH Posts: 310	LOL, Tommy Boy is such a great movie...."Quit playing with your dingy" The point of diminishing return for me would be right around $150-200. I think it all comes down to supply and demand. As long as there are people out there willing to buy a $400+ rod, rod manufacturers will continue making them. Greed drives the beast, and in my opinion that's what our economy is. Businesses have grown so large they have to find ways to make enough money to sustain themselves. Most of this "survival" is marketing IMO. Many of us, including myself, have seen pros using top end products and heard companies preach the benefits of using top end gear and we become accustomed to thinking that these products will MAKE US BETTER ANGLERS. An ultra sensitive rod and reel combo teamed up with $15 dollar crankbaits won't catch bass if you don't know where to find bass or how to work that crankbait. I've only been a member of this site for a short time, and I love what I read. And I've seen some posters on here mention to others who are in a funk that it's not always catching fish that matters. Sometimes it's just enough to be out on the water and able to mentally and physically fish that is most important. Has fishing become more about the quality and price of the equipment we use rather than the appreciation for the animals we catch? __________________ "If you become a jack of all bass fishing trades but a master of none, you're setting yourself up for mediocrity." - Denny Brauer

10-08-09, 12:01 PM	#38
woody BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Jonesville, Indiana Posts: 3,597	Personally, I wouldn't pay $400 for a rod. But I would consider spending $220 on one of their GL3 rods with the intentions of using their Xpeditor services. -Mark

10-08-09, 12:37 PM	#40
rodnreel BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Jamestown, OH Posts: 310	I'm wasn't trying to curse those companies for making money. I can't fault anyone for trying to make a buck the way our economy is right now. But IMO the manufacturers are the ones creating the "need" through advertising/marketing. We see the pros using expensive equipment and all the ads about these new breakthrough technologies, and we think that for us to be successful we have to have the same stuff. I just see that as a false sense of need. Cudos to all those marketing teams __________________ "If you become a jack of all bass fishing trades but a master of none, you're setting yourself up for mediocrity." - Denny Brauer

10-08-09, 04:12 PM	#42
BigBassin144 BassFishin.Com Premier Elite Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 9,463	This is kind of how I think of prices on rods. 20-50 bucks is like the walmart rods. Ugly Sticks, lightning rods, Shimano Voltaeus, etc. Personally, I've never used one for bass fishing, so I cannot attest to their sensitivity, or quality. 60-120 bucks in the "value" price range. This has just been flooded this year, with Abu's new Vendetta, the new Skeet Reese Tessera, St. Croix Mojo Bass, Falcon Bucoo, Kistler Carbon Steel, Shimano Clarus & Compre, etc. I think this is the most popular price range, and I do think you get your money's worth, especially now that there is so much competition in the range. All the competition is going to make companies build better rods in the price range. I've used and own rods in the price range and they work great. 150-250 bucks is the beginning of the high end stuff. Shimano Crucial & Cumara, Daiwa Zillion, carrot sticks, Falcon Cara, Loomis GL3 & most of the IMX rods, Kistler Argon & Helium LTA, St Croix. Avid & some Tourney series. I think there is where you get the most for your money. At this point, you're getting (on most rods) the top of the line materials (SiC or comparable guides, quality reel seats, high grade cork, etc). I also think this is the best blend of lightness, strength and sensitivity for the money. I've fished with and own rods in this category and I'm very happy with most of them. 300+ bucks is the super high end. The Daiwa Steez, Loomis GLX, St Croix Legend Xtreme, Kistler Helium LTX, and pretty much any JDM rod. I don't own any rods this expensive, nor have I fished with any. I have handled a couple including the LTX and the Steez. Without reels, my Loomis IMX and the Shimano Cumara are both better balanced IMO than either the Steez or LTX. Like I said, I think you get your money's worth in the "value" price range, but the most for your money is the $150-250 range. BB __________________ As of June 14, 2014 the members of the BF.com forum have moved to basschat.yuku.com!

10-08-09, 09:47 PM	#43
Vegasspider BassFishin.Com Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 570	A St. Croix rep at a gun and sports show was demonstrating true way to test feel is to tie 10lb mono to the tip guide. (This was pre braid days, I would think braid would better to use now) Tie direct to tip and not through the eyes to the reel. Remove the reel all together. Using a tear drop sinker find a surface to drag the weight across. (Something with a change in texture, lip etc. Carpet to tile or concrete to grass etc.) You should do this left to right with only a pulling motion and not reeling. I do it with my arms extended not locked out straight. About the same as I would while fishing. It works but so does any test you use to test sensitivity. The casting test I use for sensitivity it to sink a coke can in the bottom of my pool and cast across the can and then reel up to can and pull not reel over the can. A good rod I can feel the weight fall off the can. A bad one not so much. The reason I preach G Loomis is I can feel it with the 7’7” Bronze backs the same as a 6”6” GLX. I keep a couple of ugly sticks around for the kids or relatives from Indiana and I cannot only not feel the fall I can’t feel the drag. I think this fits what you get what you pay for – but the price difference in Bronze backs and GLX’s – well this comes down to preference or what Kevin said, perhaps a treat ones self or other benefits. I still say if I had it all to start over with, I would have spent less on combos and more on maps and baits.

10-08-09, 10:15 PM	#45
BeaverIslander BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: St. Cloud, Minnesota Posts: 275	I picked up a Cumara today. Might be my next reel I buy.

10-09-09, 11:10 AM	#47
Jigger BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 490	G. Loomis makes a great rod. I have a crankbait rod that I love. I've had one for 15 years or so. I broke the tip off my first one trying to poke a crankbait off a submerged log. I sent it back and they sent me a brand new one free and they paid the freight. I don't know if they'll still do that or not. Are they worth the money? I'd say you do not get the most bang for your buck with a G. Loomis but if you've got the dough and your willing to part with it, you simply cannot beat G. Loomis quality, weight and sensitivity. My understanding is that they are one of the few companies that designs and manufactures their own rod blanks. Most other companies buy rod blanks from manufacturers and then add the grips, reel seats and wrap the rod guides. Am I correct here? I think I am. Best bang for the buck goes to Falcon Original series. I've probably got 15 of them. They're very well made and sensitive. Not as light as some other rods. If I switched companies, I'd look seriously at St. Croix as my work horse rods.

10-09-09, 01:33 PM	#48
TnTom BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Woodbury Tn Posts: 119	"Note to Wholesalers: Due to G-Loomis' abandonment of their rod blank program, Mud Hole can no longer continue to offer our existing stock of G-Loomis blanks at wholesale prices. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you." Makes me think they are reducing the number of sub-contractors they use. I think its good for the quality control aspect but makes it a little harder for the guy that wants to build his own G-Loomis. I was sorry to see this. __________________ When fishin poles are outlawed only outlaws will have fishin poles and Shimano reels.

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