Spiral Guides on a rod?

[WaffleJaw]

While looking at rod makers in Texas,I found this website.

http://www.texassidewinderrods.com/aboutus/aboutus.asp

Apparently the spiral guides enable you to cast further than traditional rods, according to an article on the site with their tests. Anybody ever use one?...I never seen one before. They look pretty hideous, but that's just me.

Thoughts? Comments?

[islandbass]

I love how they look in a hideous and sickly way. Kinda of cool but ugly.

I imagine that any gain in casting distance is going to be small.

I think as a best guess for the concept of having spiral guides is to serve as an answer to addressing the torque on the rod blank for a casting rig inherently possesses.

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by islandbass

I love how they look in a hideous and sickly way. Kinda of cool but ugly.

I imagine that any gain in casting distance is going to be small.

I think as a best guess for the concept of having spiral guides is to serve as an answer to addressing the torque on the rod blank for a casting rig inherently possesses.

Yea the difference from the article wasnt much if I remember right..maybe a few feet of difference...

The guy only lives 30 minutes away...I might call him tomorrow,see if he needs a weekend apprentice

[Bender]

I have a custom spiral wrapped rod using a GLX blank. Honestly I haven't used it too much this year, but I did catch a big pike on it recently and it was nice that the rod didn't want to roll over with that much force on it. I can't really say it helps with casting that much, but maybe a little.

If you are looking for something cool to try look up micro guides.

[BigBassin144]

Wow, I think that's really ugly, lol.

I doubt that it really helps enough to make any difference. I'd rather work on proper casting technique to gain a few feet of distance (or at least to get more a more consistent distance)

BB

[nofearengineer]

I think it's hideous. Both in how they look, and in how they're selling this useless gimmick. P.T. Barnum must have been the company's founder.

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by Bender

I have a custom spiral wrapped rod using a GLX blank. Honestly I haven't used it too much this year, but I did catch a big pike on it recently and it was nice that the rod didn't want to roll over with that much force on it. I can't really say it helps with casting that much, but maybe a little.

If you are looking for something cool to try look up micro guides.

Bender,when you say rolling over. Do you mean like when you hold a rod loosely, and the reel (baitcaster) wants to flip down?

I discovered mirco guides last week,lol, they look cool and incredibly hard to wrap. I'd love to see a rod with them in person and cast it!

[nofearengineer]

I think Bender was describing what happens when a rod blank isn't splined correctly when the guides are put on.

The rod blank has a built-in tendency to favor bending in one direction. This is just due to the construction techniques required to make it. It isn't a bad thing. It's just that the direction of bend needs to be lined up with the rod guides so the rod doesn't try to twist when a heavy load is applied.

Golf clubs are like this as well.

[BigBassin144]

I'd think the sprial wrap would cause the rod to roll more.

But like nofear said, if the guides are wrapped on the same or opposite side from the spline, it shouldn't roll anyways.

BB

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I think Bender was describing what happens when a rod blank isn't splined correctly when the guides are put on.

The rod blank has a built-in tendency to favor bending in one direction. This is just due to the construction techniques required to make it. It isn't a bad thing. It's just that the direction of bend needs to be lined up with the rod guides so the rod doesn't try to twist when a heavy load is applied.

Golf clubs are like this as well.

Ok, that makes sense, misaligned rod blank cause the rolling, right?

Originally Posted by BigBassin144

I'd think the sprial wrap would cause the rod to roll more.

But like nofear said, if the guides are wrapped on the same or opposite side from the spline, it shouldn't roll anyways.

BB

See, that's what I think. Placing the guides like that seems like it would throw everything off...It seems like your placing stress points all over the rod.

[rodnreel]

I've been thinking about this for the past hour, and can't think of any real advantage it might have over conventional guides. And the picture on the website looks funky to me. Do the guides continue to spiral all the way to the tip of the blank, with the last guide being on top? It looks like the last 4 or 5 guides are all on the bottom of the blank, which is completely opposite from a conventional casting rod.

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by rodnreel

I've been thinking about this for the past hour, and can't think of any real advantage it might have over conventional guides. And the picture on the website looks funky to me. Do the guides continue to spiral all the way to the tip of the blank, with the last guide being on top? It looks like the last 4 or 5 guides are all on the bottom of the blank, which is completely opposite from a conventional casting rod.

I would think they would come back over,but I cant really tell either in the pic...When I read the article again,It only out casted the traditional rod by a a yard or two...not enough to impress me.
That and I dont need a rod to cast 40+ yards..Little over kill In my opinion

[islandbass]

I think two things are getting confused, the rod's spine and the tendency for a casting rod with reel rolls over.

These are NOT the same thing.

To the former, the rod's tendency to roll over as a result of the spine is the result of how a blank is made. There is a spine which illustrates the blank's tendency to remain in an arch of least resistance when flexed. Rod builders know how to find this and align the guides with respect to it. Guides are typically place on the spine or 180 degrees of the spine.

To the latter, the tendency of a casting rod to roll over with a casting reel attached to it is the result of the reel (being on top of the casting rod) and it is independent of the spine. With the reel attached, the rod and reel will want to roll onto its heavy (handle) side because the reel is on top of the rod and much of the reel's weight is on the handle side. The force that counteracts this to keep the rod and reel upright is the angler. This roll over is not the same thing as the former. Whether the casting rod's guides are aligned with the spine or opposite to it, the casting rig will always roll down with the casting reel attached.

Waffle, keep us posted if you learn from this guy.

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by islandbass

I think two things are getting confused, the rod's spine and the tendency for a casting rod with reel rolls over.

These are NOT the same thing.

To the former, the rod's tendency to roll over as a result of the spine is the result of how a blank is made. There is a spine which illustrates the blank's tendency to remain in an arch of least resistance when flexed. Rod builders know how to find this and align the guides with respect to it. Guides are typically place on the spine or 180 degrees of the spine.

To the latter, the tendency of a casting rod to roll over with a casting reel attached to it is the result of the reel (being on top of the casting rod) and it is independent of the spine. With the reel attached, the rod and reel will want to roll onto its heavy (handle) side because the reel is on top of the rod and much of the reel's weight is on the handle side. The force that counteracts this to keep the rod and reel upright is the angler. This roll over is not the same thing as the former. Whether the casting rod's guides are aligned with the spine or opposite to it, the casting rig will always roll down with the casting reel attached.

Waffle, keep us posted if you learn from this guy.

I will,
And your right, guides go 180 (or the opposite side of the spine)...and that's what I want to ask this guy, does spiral guy affect that?

I've never used one, but I'm curious about rod stress.

And that's what I curious about when Bender mentioned rod roll. Was it just top heavy?

[islandbass]

WJ,

I think so. casting rods are going to want to roll because of the reel's biased weight with a reel on top.

In addition to this the roll that I think Bender was referring to is also inherent by design with casting reels because the guides are on top of the rod. When the fish tugs and you pull back the "easiest" place those guides want to go is to the bottom. This is the torque that spiral wraps are supposed to address.

This is not an issue with spinning rods because the guides are already at the bottom. The guides are already in that "happy" place.

Maybe nofear and others can elaborate on torque and placement of guides on a casting rod.

[DaveW731]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I think it's hideous. Both in how they look, and in how they're selling this useless gimmick. P.T. Barnum must have been the company's founder.

Yea, just like with the "wide-spool reel" gimmick! (Inside joke from another thread....couldn't resist)
I first saw a spiral-guide casting rod about 25 years ago, from a custom rod-builder here in Michigan. The guy claimed that they not only cast farther, they greatly reduced backlash. This is the first I have heard anything about them since then.

[rodnreel]

You guys are way too smart for me I think I remember the website saying that the guides spiral to the left for left handed retrieve and to the right for right handed retrieve. To compensate for the torque, I would think it should be opposite. But once again, what do I know

[nofearengineer]

Rod'n'reel, though this guy may claim it to be so, it is not so. You simply can't correct for an axial torque by applying axial forces on each end of the rod. It defies physics.

If the implication is that having the rod guides on one side of the rod somehow counteracted the unbalanced weight of the reel, then you would be correct, they should be on the other side. However, I haven't weighed any rod guides myself, but I would assume they are very, very light, and would not be enough weight to balance the torque, given their extremely close proximity to the moment axis (the rod).

The biggest problem with reel torque on a baitcaster is while reeling. But since this moment alternates clockwise, then counterclockwise, as the force you put on the handle pushes up and then down, no permanent arrangement of guides could ever conceivably fix that.

Nice marketing ploy, but I'll never own one.

[muddy]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I think it's hideous. Both in how they look, and in how they're selling this useless gimmick. P.T. Barnum must have been the company's founder.

Oh Really??? How many have you used and for how long?/ I have a 7 ft. Custom Wrap from Alpster on BR.com and it is the single best rod I have ever owned. ( All my other rods are off the rack Fenwicks) Throwing larger baits ( 2 oz baits) with it for 2 years now and the spiral wrap is no gimmick. It helps on the cast and especially when gishting larger fish like Pike and insane blue fish on the Ocean off Brooklyn. Why would you knock something as a gimmick, that many respected builders use and many fishermen have used for a long time? Why would you knock something you obviously have not used?
Experience as a tool for a review is the only way to go, if you experienced something and did not like it then VALID other wise it is just reading someone elses experience which is really not worth much to me
When i went fishing at Lake Fork with some of the fellas over at BR.com in 2007 I was surprised about just how many spiral wraps were in use. They are not a gimmick and the next rod i have done , will also be a spiral.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by muddy

Oh Really??? How many have you used and for how long?

So let met get this straight...in order to have an opinion about something, I have to own one and use it? Sorry, bud...that's why math and science were invented. So we wouldn't have to use trial and error as our method of choosing the right designs.

Islandbass...let's look at this hypothetically. Let's say you have a 50 pound fish on your line. Let's also assume you have the very best drag out there (for a low-profile at least), with a 23 pound maximum force. This means that the maximum force a fish can exert on your rod tip is going to be 23 pounds, at least continuously. Let us now assume your line runs out of the last rod guide 1/2" from the center of the rod (probably less, but I'll give you this one). That means, under perfect conditions, you are going to experience 1 foot pound of torque axially on your rod handle from the fish. And again, that is under PERFECT conditions, using conservative values above. In the real word, it will certainly be much less.

Bass fishing? Haha...miniscule torque.

Yes, a rod tip will twist a bit under that torque. But that doesn't mean you have to go with it and let your rod roll over. Just point the rod in the fish's direction instead of to the side, and the rod simply can not twist, since there will not be any more moment on it.

[muddy]

I fish with Pfluger President Spinning reels, you know with graphite bodies. Many , who never use them say these reels are not good because fish toruqe the bodies out of shape and throw the gearing out of line. After many years and many fish , this has not happened once, not only for me but many in the club I fish with experience trumps theroy, every time.

Spiral Wrapped Guides: I do not know how much more distance they give, as the one spiral wrap I have is different from my 4 other rigs. The other 4 are all the same, ABU 5600WS reels/12 lb Trilene XL and on 7 ft Fenwick rods, all for LMB fishing.

This spiral rod, is wrapped on a Lamiglass Blank ( IM 10 Graphite) 7 ft/Med Hvy, Fast Tip; and I use it for Northern Pike,Strip Bass and Smaller Blue Fish ( 12 to 20 lbs) throwing big Mirro Lures baits, and the weight of the baits themsevles makes them fly a great distance, with ease.

It is in the fight that the Spiral Wrap really shows a difference for me. No line slap and the guides being in the spinning rod ( for lack of a technical term) keep the fish and lure moving back to me much eaiser then when I have used Conventinal Wrapped rods. I use to use a big Graphite Penn Inshore rod for these applications and the spiral wrap far outperforms them in this way.

[nofearengineer]

You obviously enjoy your spiral rod, so keep using it. Just don't misrepresent my posts to be something they're not.

We love debate on here...we just hope to keep it civil. There's no divide big enough to keep a couple of guys from enjoying fishing together.

[Forums Admin]

This has been a good thread with quality discussions. Let's make sure to stay on the topic of spiral wrap guides and not get into any personal jabs.

[Woodsy]

I have one spiral wrap rod that I won in a small club tourney last year - and I think it is great. It is by far the most sensitive fishing rod I own and has become my go to rod for finesse fishing. To be fair, it may be more sensitive just because it is a better rod blank and not for the spiral wrapping - most of my other rods sell for half the cost of what this one sells for on-line. But I believe I can cast farther with it - and more importantly, I find I cast more accurately with it. It was built by JB Custom Rods (http://www.custombassrods.com), who advertise the difference to be:

The spiral wrapped rod
The concept of the spiral wrapped rod was invented around 1920. The spiral wrap takes the guides of the rod around to the bottom of the rod to give you better control, more casting distance, less stress on the rod, better hook setting power and faster response. It involves taking the guides from the top of the rod and "wrapping" them around to the bottom in a spiral motion.

[islandbass]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

So let met get this straight...in order to have an opinion about something, I have to own one and use it? Sorry, bud...that's why math and science were invented. So we wouldn't have to use trial and error as our method of choosing the right designs.

Islandbass...let's look at this hypothetically. Let's say you have a 50 pound fish on your line. Let's also assume you have the very best drag out there (for a low-profile at least), with a 23 pound maximum force. This means that the maximum force a fish can exert on your rod tip is going to be 23 pounds, at least continuously. Let us now assume your line runs out of the last rod guide 1/2" from the center of the rod (probably less, but I'll give you this one). That means, under perfect conditions, you are going to experience 1 foot pound of torque axially on your rod handle from the fish. And again, that is under PERFECT conditions, using conservative values above. In the real word, it will certainly be much less.

Bass fishing? Haha...miniscule torque.

Yes, a rod tip will twist a bit under that torque. But that doesn't mean you have to go with it and let your rod roll over. Just point the rod in the fish's direction instead of to the side, and the rod simply can not twist, since there will not be any more moment on it.

Right on, my brother engineer. The torque argument that I was illustrating is a likely selling point for some spiral wrappers in addition to the claim of enhanced casting.