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Old 06-07-11, 11:48 PM   #26
nofearengineer
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I caught that while you were replying, Tav.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavery5 View Post
I disagree gear ratio can tell you the circumference of the spool if you also know how many inches of line it is retrieving.
Yes, but you have to have a frame of reference, which is "per each turn of the handle"; i.e. revolutions (input)

Your first equation says "circumference = IPT / gear ratio".

At the end you say "gear ratio / diameter = gear ratio". While this already must not be true, take it further and substitute into the first equation.

circumference = IPT / (gear ratio / diameter)

or

circumference x gear ratio / diameter = IPT

which simplifies to

gear ratio x pi = IPT

I'm pretty sure that's not right.

good lord...let's get some sleep.
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Old 06-08-11, 12:09 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofearengineer View Post
I caught that while you were replying, Tav.



Yes, but you have to have a frame of reference, which is "per each turn of the handle"; i.e. revolutions (input)
And you do, that is what the 1 in 7.1:1 relates to. 1 complete turn of the handle results in 7.1 rotations of the spool.

Your first equation says "circumference = IPT / gear ratio".

that is correct

At the end you say "gear ratio / diameter = gear ratio". While this already must not be true, take it further and substitute into the first equation.

Actually I said that gear ratio / spool diameter is equal to drive ratio.

circumference = IPT / (gear ratio / diameter)

this is not correct, circumference is = IPT/ gear ratio or in other words

31/7.1 = 4.366

diameter is equal to circumference / pi or
4.366 / 3.14 = 1.390

now we know the dia of the spool.

gear ratio / diameter of the spool = drive ratio or

7.1/1.390 = 5.10:1 you have lost me on the rest of this.




or

circumference x gear ratio / diameter = IPT

which simplifies to

gear ratio x pi = IPT

I'm pretty sure that's not right.

good lord...let's get some sleep.
I aree a good discussion for another night
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Old 06-08-11, 01:16 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavery5 View Post
So 7.1/1.390= 5.10:1 and 7.9/1.249= 6.32:1 As you can see the 7.1 reel still has the lower gear ratio and has more torque by my calculations.
I could not sleep with this running around in my noggin.

I figured out the problem.

The "drive ratio" as you call it is a product, and not a quotient. You're dividing when you should be multiplying. If you multiply those sets of numbers they come out the same.

Remember, with car rear ends, what is referred to as a 3.73 or 4.11 etc. ratio is actually a 1/3.73 or 1/4.11 etc. The drive shaft spins faster than the tires. In a reel, it's backwards...the spool spins faster than the handle.

God, I hope we have cleared this up.
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Old 06-08-11, 03:36 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavery5 View Post
I disagree gear ratio can tell you the circumference of the spool if you also know how many inches of line it is retrieving. In other words, 7.1:1 and 31 IPT tells us that once the spool makes 7.1 rotations it retrieves 31 inches of line. Therefore if you divide 31 the IPT by the rotations 7.1 or 31/7.1 it will tell you how much line the spool retrieves on only one rotation. That is equal to the circumference of the spool. Not sure you thought that out so well.
That is pretty slick and for all intents, is a simple way to approximate the spools circumference! I followed your explanation as if you were talking to me one on one.

I might be mistaken, but I think the calculation assumes that the spool is filled to optimum capacity.

As the amount of line on the spool decreases, so too will the spool's circumference diminish and consequently, the line recovery rate.

The thing to take away from this is to ensure that we fill the spool to optimum capacity to utilize the reel's advertised line recovery rate and to when necessary make long casts with less effort.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:44 AM   #30
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I've got the BOTTOM LINE - WGAF? Answer = a Technogeek.

This has been discussed before - rate of line retreive vs. gear ratio - and I think a lot of angler's get caught up in the ratio of a reel, believing a higher ratio reel = a "faster" reel in terms of lure retreival. That's not always the case, but it is the way manufacturers and some pro's present the issue to sell them.

A higher gear ratio is faster - in that it spins the spool at a faster rate - but often the spool is of a smaller diameter, so the rate of retreive is the same or very similiar to a reel of a lower gear ratio. Therefore the lure moves through the water at the same or very similiar speed.

As mentioned, the amount of line on the spool also effects the rate of retreive of the lure. After the cast, with little line remianing on the spool, the lure will move through the water and accelerate slightly as line loads on the spool - if the angler maintains the speed at which he turns the handle.

That creates another issue regarding the accuracy of the advertised "rate of recovery", which should vary depending upon the amount of line on the spool. More line on spool the diameter increases which should increase the rate of recovery.

Now another issue - crankbaits. Most recommend a reel with a lower gear ratio, less ROR to work a deep crank. Why? After the cast with little line remaining, you have to crank like a demon to get the lure down to working depth, a "faster" gear ratio would spin the spool faster, therefore gaining more line with a near empty spool, getting the lure deeper with less effort - would it not? That to me is the important issue with a crank, especially the medium or deep divers - getting it down to working depth. A "slower" reel would take longer to get the bait to depth, keeping it in the strike zone for less time.

So bottom line: gear ratio, spool size, quantiy of line all affect the speed which a lure travels. As does how fast you turn the reel handle. IMO - It's all marketing Bullcrap. Not many fisherman use a steady retreive on ANY lure, so where does the reel's technical aspects enter the picture?

I use Pflueger reels, and as an example (baitcasters) - the Patriarch and Summit (now discontinued) are of different ratios, 6.3:1 and 7.1:1 respectively yet have the same advertised ROR @ 28". So they are different but the same. The Asaro and Patriarch are the same ratio, 6.3:1 yet ROR is 28" and 26" respectivly. Again, different yet the same.

So again my opinion is that it's all marketing hype or BULLCHIT. What is important is how the angler uses the reel, that is the variable in all calculations in how the reel will perform. The hands of the angler makes the bait do what it does best, not the reel.

Returning to the crankbait example, I get it that a low gear ratio makes it easier on the angler when retreiving a deep bait by providing more torque to overcome resistance. But the same reel would take more effort to get the bait down to working depth (or sacrifice time in the working depth of the lure) than one with a faster gear ratio. What's the value in the trade off?

With all the technical discussion the one varible NOT considered is the human factor - the angler. Any reel will work a lure the lure differently in the hands of different angler. The important issue is in finding a reel that is comfortable, will cast a lure effectively and fits your budget. That's what the technical aspects of a reel will do best - cast the lure to your target. After the lure hits the water, the technical aspects of the reel means little, it's the angler's manipulation of the reel (and certainly the rod) during the retreive that is the differece.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:47 AM   #31
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I also have to respectfully disagree with your findings Bryce. I do, however enjoy the discusion. You put a lot of emphasis on the reels IPT, I don't. The reason that I disregard the IPT is that it's only a theoretical number at a fixed point. In actual use on a reel, the IPT is constantly changing and therefore can only be used as a reference for a posible retreival rate. The reason for that is that the outside diameter of the spool is not the outside diameter of the line. Even if you start with a spool that was filled to max line capacity, the diameter will drastically decrease when you make a cast. The longer the cast, the lower the OD. Because the actual IPT is the OD of the line still on the spool at the moment of calculation, OD X Ratio per turn, the IPT will start low and steadily increase until you stop cranking to make another cast. This is also affected by spool design and width. The most drastic changes will come form narrow deep spools and wide shalow spools will have the smallest differentials. This is why I believe that Ratio is a valid measurment for a reel, it is constant. If you are trying to pick a reel for a certain use, both the theoretical IPT and the Ratio can help you make a wise choice, but when comparing the same reel , the ratio is all you need to know to decide which one is best for an intended use. We know that a Curado E5 and an E7 are the same size reel so we know that the 5 is slower and stronger. You can then compare it's theo IPT to other similar sized reels but you can also just visually group them by average spool size. Obviously, a large reel with a large spool will need to have a much lower gear ration that a small reel, or it would retrieve line way to fast per turn for most uses. I also understand your opinion on the handle length, but don't agree that it changes anything. Reels are rated at a ration per turn. Crank the handle once and the spool will turn X amount of times determined by the ratio. The IPT will be determined by the line OD per revolution, so it also is not changed by the handle length. IMO, the only consideration of handle length is the amount of leverage it will apply to the reel and then it's overall comfort to use. A very short handle is not easy to turn against resistence and requires a very tight circle of use which is not comfortable. An average sized handle will be the most comfortable for most users and is generaly sized to supply the correct amount of leverage for the reels intended use. Reels that will be used for cranking heavy loads or fighting big fish will need a bigger handle to supply more leverage. All of this regulates the amount of energy you need to use to crank the reel, but doesn't change change the ratio, IPt or the power of the reel, just the power required to use the reel.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:16 AM   #32
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I enjoy the debate as well, Kevin. It helps me crystallize my thoughts into a better presentation.

I agree that the gear ratio is a constant. What you're in effect saying is that, because the gear ratio remains unchanged, even when two spools are emptied by a cast, they should still "feel" the same, as far as torque goes.

However, I disagree about the IPT not being an effective comparison. That's because if you cast two reels 30 yards, their resulting IPT at a half-filled level should also be the same, unless they've got different spool designs. Which just so happens to be my original point.

If two reels have the same IPT and different gear ratios, they must have different size spools.

Just for kicks, since you obviously have access to the most diverse range of reels, how about you PM'ing me or listing a handful of the most popular reels, in stock form, and their advertised ratio, spool diameter, and handle throw? I think it would be fun to compare it to the perception of which has the lowest and highest real ratio.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:26 AM   #33
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Hey, not to beat this dead horse into a bloody mudhole, but I did think of something.

The prime purpose of a gearing system is to establish a mechanical advantage.

A loose description would be:

mechanical advantage = distance input force is applied / distance load is moved

That is the basis of my inclusion of the length of the reel handle.

gear ratio = circumference of reel handle during one turn / IPT, or advertised gear ratio times spool circumference, as Tavery cleverly pointed out.

FUN!
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Old 06-08-11, 11:31 AM   #34
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Quote:
The prime purpose of a gearing system is to establish a mechanical advantage.
OK, I can see where a limp wristed technogeek, or little girl, might be helped by that.

Baits in the water.
Eyeing it up.
But will he bite?
Patience Grasshopper.......................
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Old 06-08-11, 11:33 AM   #35
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OK, I can see where a limp wristed technogeek, or little girl, might be helped by that.
Okay, Mr. Studly. You are hereby limited to hand lining, since you don't need no stinking mechanical advantage.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofearengineer View Post
Hey, not to beat this dead horse into a bloody mudhole, but I did think of something.

The prime purpose of a gearing system is to establish a mechanical advantage.

A loose description would be:

mechanical advantage = distance input force is applied / distance load is moved

That is the basis of my inclusion of the length of the reel handle.

gear ratio = circumference of reel handle during one turn / IPT, or advertised gear ratio times spool circumference, as Tavery cleverly pointed out.

Bryce, I think we are still missing each other here a little bit or maybe we are saying the same thing differntly.

Gear ratio is the comparison of one complete revolution of the handle, to the number of revolutions the spool makes in that same handle revolution.

7.1:1 refers to the spool turning 7.1 times to one handle revolution.

Gear ratio is not effected by handle length.

When I speak of circumference, I am refering to the circumference of the spool. We can figure the circumference of the spool by looking at two numbers. Gear ratio and IPT. We know that when the spool makes 7.1 rotations it hauls in 31 inches of line. So if you divide the IPT by the gear ratio or 31/7.1 This tells you how much line the spool pulls in on one complete revolution, which happens to be the same as spool circumference.

Now if take the circumference of the spool and divide it by PI (3.14), or in this case it would look like this

31/7 = 4.366 then 4.366/3.14 = 1.390, this tells us the diameter of the spool. Diameter = 1.390.

Now all we need to do to figure the final drive ratio for the reel is to divide the gear ratio which is 7.1 by the diameter of the spool 1.390 or 7.1/1.390

This will give us our final drive ratio, 7.1/1.390 = 5.10. So our final drive ratio in this case is 5.10:1

I do not believe that handle length changes anything in this formula, as it makes no difference if the handle is 1 inch or 10 inches, when it makes 1 complete revolution the spool will always complete 7.1 revolutions, the only thing the handle length does is provide you more leverage so it makes it easier/more comfortable to apply the input.




FUN!
Hope this was a clear explanation of my thoughts. And just so you know, it also kept me awake lastnight.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:49 PM   #37
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So how about that new Revo guys!!?
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Old 06-08-11, 08:54 PM   #38
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Best thread ever.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:20 PM   #39
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Best post ever
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Old 06-08-11, 09:28 PM   #40
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Tav, I have no idea whatsoever why you are dividing the gear ratio by the spool diameter.

In the case of a car rear end:

DR1 = DR2
GR1 x D1 = GR2 x D2

where
DR = "drive ratio"
GR = gear ratio
and D equals tire diameter

A lower gear ratio and am inversely larger tire produces the same drive ratio.

It's the same thing as the reel.

And I am including the handle length because you want to talk about torque. You said a higher gear ratio would produce more torque. Torque can't be produced without separation forces...the force of the line trying to turn the spool, and the force of your hand trying to turn the handle. One force is larger than the other. The ratio of the two forces is the mechanical advantage, or "effective", "true", "real" etc. gear ratio.

Personally, I don't care if we agree to disagree on how we describe things. But I'm telling you with 100% certainty, that two reels with the same IPT, but different advertised gear ratios (and let's say same handle length just to go ahead and head that one off) will require the exact same torque to turn the handle. They are both accomplishing the same amount of work (work being force x distance); i.e drag of the lure times IPT, per turn. If not, then Abu-Garcia has just violated the Law of Conservation of Energy.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavery5 View Post
Best post ever
I'm sure everyone is hating us...well, at least me... by now.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:37 PM   #42
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By the way, I found this picture floating around....so I know there is a lefty model out there. I REALLY hope the lefty isn't JDM only. I would consider that a foul by AG. I'd probably change religions over that.

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Old 06-08-11, 09:44 PM   #43
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This may be a Revo I could get on board with. These don't appear to have that super uncomfortable "hump" on the sideplate.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:51 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by nofearengineer View Post
Tav, I have no idea whatsoever why you are dividing the gear ratio by the spool diameter.

Simple, Drive Ratio = Gear Ratio/Tire Diameter or in the case of a reel Gear Ratio/Spool Diameter.

In the case of a car rear end:

DR1 = DR2
GR1 x D1 = GR2 x D2

where
DR = "drive ratio"
GR = gear ratio
and D equals tire diameter

A lower gear ratio and am inversely larger tire produces the same drive ratio.

It's the same thing as the reel.

And I am including the handle length because you want to talk about torque. You said a higher gear ratio would produce more torque. Torque can't be produced without separation forces...the force of the line trying to turn the spool, and the force of your hand trying to turn the handle. One force is larger than the other. The ratio of the two forces is the mechanical advantage, or "effective", "true", "real" etc. gear ratio.

Personally, I don't care if we agree to disagree on how we describe things. But I'm telling you with 100% certainty, that two reels with the same IPT, but different advertised gear ratios (and let's say same handle length just to go ahead and head that one off) will require the exact same torque to turn the handle. They are both accomplishing the same amount of work (work being force x distance); i.e drag of the lure times IPT, per turn. If not, then Abu-Garcia has just violated the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Again I have to disagree, take a bicycle as an example, traveling up a hill a set distance, lets say 50ft. Take a ride up that hill on the bike in first gear and then try it in 10th gear. Which do figure is going to take more torque applied to travel the 50ft.

Like you, I don't care if we agree to disagree, because in the end it truely only makes a difference to those of us who care. I am very comfortable with my method as I am sure you are with yours.
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Old 06-08-11, 10:03 PM   #45
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Again I have to disagree, take a bicycle as an example, traveling up a hill a set distance, lets say 50ft. Take a ride up that hill on the bike in first gear and then try it in 10th gear. Which do figure is going to take more torque applied to travel the 50ft.
Are we assuming the same speed to cover the 50 ft for each time?

Are we assuming the same number of turns of the crank?

Because that's what our reel situation is.

If so, then the torque applied by the pedaler has to be the same, and one bike has a smaller rear wheel.
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Old 06-08-11, 10:17 PM   #46
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ROFLMAO
Guys, lets hope we all have grins on our faces while we are discusing this, I do. Bryce, I agree with you on this statement.
Personally, I don't care if we agree to disagree on how we describe things. But I'm telling you with 100% certainty, that two reels with the same IPT, but different advertised gear ratios (and let's say same handle length just to go ahead and head that one off) will require the exact same torque to turn the handle. They are both accomplishing the same amount of work (work being force x distance); i.e drag of the lure times IPT, per turn. If not, then Abu-Garcia has just violated the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Part of the problem we have here is that we are not all talking about the same things. Bryce is absolutly correct about torque. The torqe he is talking about is true torque which is a twisting force applied to a shaft. On a fishing reel, the true torque is the force that the handle applies to the crankshaft. That is regulated by the force aplied to the handle and also the length of the handle. Torque in an engine on a car is different than anything going on in a fishing reel. A fishing reel has torque applied to the crankshaft, that turns a gear which turns another gear that turns the spool. The ratios of these gears determine how many times the spool turns, but they also determine the retrieval power. Retrieval or recovery power is very important when building a winch or buying a winch for a certain purpous. A fishing reel is a small winch, the big difference is that they are geared backwards than most winches which already puts them at a mechanical disadvantage for recovery power. The spool is turning many more revolutions than the crank where as a winch spool would only turn once with many revolutions of the crank, this generating an advantage and increasing the power. Tav was very correct that these reels will have less recovery power than other revos, even if the IPT is the same. The fact is, you lose recovery power as the ratio increases regardless of size. But what does all this mean for an angler? That still depends on what is important to you and how the reel will be used. If you want a small reel, you need a high gear ratio or the IPT will be very small and the speed that the bait moves will be very slow, unless you turn the crank very fast. The tradeoff though is that a small reel with a high ratio will lack recovery power and that will make it difficult to haul a big fish away from cover and also difficult to work baits that have a lot of resistence. This is wher I have disagreed withan earlir statment from Bryce. I believe that you stated that the power of the reel will be the same if the IPT is the same regardless of the ratio, and thats just not true with a winch. My understanding of these principles is from engineering articles on the design of winchs that I read today.
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Old 06-08-11, 10:28 PM   #47
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Kev, what do you mean by "retrieval power"? As in, what would the units be on that? Lbs? Ft-lbs? N-m/sec^2? I'm a little foggy about what you mean.
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Old 06-08-11, 10:45 PM   #48
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I guess all that I have been trying to say and prove mathematically is that while these reels both retrieve the same amount of line, you are giving up a significant mechanical advantage with the higher gear ratio reel, and it is going to be more difficult to retrieve deep diving or high drag type lures with it as compared to a lower geared reel.

thats it in a nutshell.

Kevin, great explanation, I do understand that we are talking about two different types of torque. Torque as in the amount of force necessary to to rotate the shaft. And torque as the mechanical advantage the gear ratio of the reel applies to spinning the spool. I am concerned with the later.

At any rate a fantastic discussion., "people fear what they cant understand and hate what they can't conquer." author unknown

Stew any last words?
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Old 06-08-11, 11:11 PM   #49
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Tavery, I guess the only way we're going to be able to settle this is we each buy one.

And....we can only hope.
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Old 06-08-11, 11:15 PM   #50
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here you go Bryce.
Comparison shopping for a winch (and we recommend that you do) can be a little confusing. This is largely because winch manufacturers love complicated mathematical formulas. The favorite is to use the "power ratio" of the winch as the basis of choice. Simply put, this is how many pounds of pulling power you will get from a winch for every pound of pressure that you put in. The formula is actually very simple-

2 x handle length x gear ratio
--------------------------- = Power ratio or pulling power or retreival power
Drum Diameter

Technically, this means that a winch with a 10:1 power ratio will produce 100 lbs. of pulling power for every 10 lbs. that you put in. In reality, this is only a rough guide. There are other things that need to be factored in, such as the number of turns in the sheet, the friction produced by the lead blocks, and the operation of the winch itself. However, as a basis of comparison, the ratio is useful.

Here is another explanation of the IPT changing power
As the layers of cable build up on the winch drum, the overall cable speed increases, however the rated line pull decreases at the same rate. By using a snatch block to obtain a "double line pull" you can in effect almost double the pulling capacity of your winch, whilst approximately halving the overall recovery speed.

Simply put, the bigger the OD gets as it reels in line, the less pulling power the reel has, same thing goes for high gear ratios, the faster the spool turns, the less pulling power it has.

Last edited by pro reel; 06-08-11 at 11:27 PM.
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