Cocealed carry defense loads.

[keithdog]

Specifically 9mm, but could apply to other calibers as well. Currently, I carry a S&W 4013TSW Tactical .40 caliber. I have two loads for the gun. Remington Golden Saber 180GR SXT hollow points and Winchester SXT 180GR hollow points. I am planning on purchasing a 9mm sub compact for my new carry gun. I have been doing some research on the net and have it narrowed down to the Glock Gen 4 model 26, my first choice so far but would consider the Gen 3 issue, Springfield Armory XDs, Sig P250, and the S&W Shield. All in 9mm. All look very promising and get great reviews from users. Small, light weight, accurate, easily concealed, easily field stripped and dependable. My current S&W has been very reliable never failing to load and fire anything I put through it. Anyways, back to the issue of my post, defense ammo.

When choosing a defense load, I have always leaned on hollow points for maximum stopping power and tissue damage. However, I am starting to think more about round nose ammo for defense loads, especially for penetrating ability in winter should your attacker be wearing a heavy leather jacket, parka, or whatever over multiple layers. Would not a round nose bullet in this situation be more reliable for penetration? I have actually read recently of guys loading both round nose and hollow point at the same time into their clip for defense use. Best of both worlds. It sounds like a sound idea to me as it covers about any situation at all times. So I was curious for you guys who carry or keep a gun at home for protection, do you use different types of ammo depending on the time of year, warm months/cold months? And what grain do you prefer. Especially in 9mm loads which is what I am going to buy.

Lastly, I am NOT going to argue with anyone, the merits of a 9mm. I'm tired of some guys who think anything smaller that .40 is not sufficient for self defense and does not have stopping power. It worked very well for decades by militaries and police around the world. And the ammo is even better today than back then. Like I like to say, if you don't believe 9mm has stopping power, let me fire a couple round into your leg and see what you think then.

[MallenManson]

Originally Posted by keithdog

Specifically 9mm, but could apply to other calibers as well. Currently, I carry a S&W 4013TSW Tactical .40 caliber. I have two loads for the gun. Remington Golden Saber 180GR SXT hollow points and Winchester SXT 180GR hollow points. I am planning on purchasing a 9mm sub compact for my new carry gun. I have been doing some research on the net and have it narrowed down to the Glock Gen 4 model 26, my first choice so far but would consider the Gen 3 issue, Springfield Armory XDs, Sig P250, and the S&W Shield. All in 9mm. All look very promising and get great reviews from users. Small, light weight, accurate, easily concealed, easily field stripped and dependable. My current S&W has been very reliable never failing to load and fire anything I put through it. Anyways, back to the issue of my post, defense ammo.

When choosing a defense load, I have always leaned on hollow points for maximum stopping power and tissue damage. However, I am starting to think more about round nose ammo for defense loads, especially for penetrating ability in winter should your attacker be wearing a heavy leather jacket, parka, or whatever over multiple layers. Would not a round nose bullet in this situation be more reliable for penetration? I have actually read recently of guys loading both round nose and hollow point at the same time into their clip for defense use. Best of both worlds. It sounds like a sound idea to me as it covers about any situation at all times. So I was curious for you guys who carry or keep a gun at home for protection, do you use different types of ammo depending on the time of year, warm months/cold months? And what grain do you prefer. Especially in 9mm loads which is what I am going to buy.

Lastly, I am NOT going to argue with anyone, the merits of a 9mm. I'm tired of some guys who think anything smaller that .40 is not sufficient for self defense and does not have stopping power. It worked very well for decades by militaries and police around the world. And the ammo is even better today than back then. Like I like to say, if you don't believe 9mm has stopping power, let me fire a couple round into your leg and see what you think then.

Worked for Mel in Lethal Weapon ; )

[lilmule]

Its Size of the individual and pyhsical well being also determine what one carries a 130lb toothpick cannot hide a large frame or double stack well and arthritic hands may not jack a slide well.My first cc pistol was a pt22 due to tip up barrel feature,next a 32 acp llama(1911 peashooter),my primary now is a pa63 9x18 mak,45 is a truck carry.
Most 9mm in a small pkg with defense loads are as hard on the shooter almost as whats in front of it.DB9 kicks like a mule,wont want to fire it twice would hesitate.Takes about 2 min to get feeling back in hands.
In summer shorts and a t shirt still cc a 22 only a revolver snubby 11oclock cannot tell its on me,no wont over penetrate but definately need surgery as hollow points,both my 32 and 9x18 solid nose penetration no problem even in 32 acp if using 205 fpe euro ammo,it does take a real steel pistol to fire most american 32 is 130 fpe pentration exceeds the fbi 12 in min-yes 32 acp.Now your modern 32 cc pistol that weighs 11 oz and is 4 in long wont handle it.9x18 was good enough for the russians surplus is cheaper even now.
Now hears the no brainer corbin 32 rated 160 out of a berretta with its short barrel produces 130.A longer barrel such as a ppk would put out the 160 still small enough to carry as it was THE pistol originally made for it.
Same with other calibers reduce the length of barrel the easier to carry yet less fpe,so a 9x19 or 9mm in a 3 in barrel puts out about what a 9x18 does in a 4,if using non plus p ammo.The 32 with real steel like my lamma more than a bersa 380 or about same 205 fpe,only a few2 mfg of euro are this hot and hard to get sell out quick.
But overall reduce to what only you have to in barrel length to get good effect.
Like my wee 22 they become a hideout gun suitable for extreme close contact and a caliber even smaller with a longer barrel may surpass it in preformance.
Soon as I lose the T shirt due to cooler weather then go up in caliber to 32 then 9x18 mak both the 32 and mak I can hit a pie pan at 50 ft so no problem for me anyway as a self defense weapon,no not 40 s and its what one can use hide and handle and yes feel confident in both the 32 and mak,and the 22 is better than nothing they would definately need surgery as out of the snubby they are dum dums.(sideways entry,tumble)

[bcklash]

Keith, I don't understand that argument either. I do carry a glock 27 .40. Adam carries a Ruger 9mm and Debi carries a Bersa .380. If you're going to shoot me, please use a BB gun, cause I'm pretty sure a 9mm or a .380 will kill me just as quick as a .40 I am thinking about buying a Ruger 22 to carry in my camera bag while I'm on the boat.

[lilmule]

Few calibers kill immediately if they are armed may also return fire,shot placement is more important than what with for the most part.

[Jrob78]

I have carried a Gen 3 Glock 27 for about 13 years. I carry IWB in the Texas heat without a problem. A good Kydex holster is key, I use and highly recommend Comp-Tac holsters.

That said, while the Glock 26 is considered a sub-compact, it isn't very compact. It's a very blocky gun and doesn't conceal nearly as well as some others. If you're looking for a deep concealment gun, I personally wouldn't go with the Glock. Don't get me wrong, I love my 27 and trust my life to it but ultra small it is not. My dad carries a Ruger LC9 and it conceals infinitely better than my Glock.

I carry Federal Hydrashock in my carry gun. I can't really speak to other ammo because I've always used the Hydrashock. If you mean FMJ ammo when you say round ball, I would seriously reconsider that. FMJ flat out doesn't expand and it's very likely to over penetrate if you have to shoot it in tight quarters.

My boss carries Corbon Powerball in his carry guns. It is a hollow point but has a plastic ball in the tip that is supposed to aid in penetration. There has to be something that would work better than FMJ. Even some of the frangible rounds might be an option. I do know that Glock says that lead bullets aren't safe to shoot in factory barrels. I don't know if you've considered lead but make sure it's ok to shoot in whatever gun you decide on.

[keithdog]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

I use and highly recommend Comp-Tac holsters.

That said, while the Glock 26 is considered a sub-compact, it isn't very compact.

FMJ flat out doesn't expand and it's very likely to over penetrate if you have to shoot it in tight quarters.

I don't know if you've considered lead but make sure it's ok to shoot in whatever gun you decide on.

While the Glock 26 isn't the most compact 9mm, it may be the most dependable which is one reason I am considering it. It's also much more compact than what I carry now. But I want to physically compare it to the other guns I mentioned, something I haven't yet done. In the research phase now.

FMJ is what I was referring to. Sorry. The fact that it does not expand is exactly why I was thinking it might be a better option during the winter when an attacker most likely will be wearing multiple layers of clothing. It should penetrate all the layers of clothing better than a hollow point. That's what I'm thinking, but I could be wrong. During summer, when tee shirts rule, hollow points are ideal for sure.

The only time I would shoot lead would be for target shooting, and I would definitely make sure it's safe for the gun. I've shot lead in my S&W which was ok'd by the owner of the gun shop I deal with. So far it's handled it well.

[keithdog]

Originally Posted by lilmule

Its Size of the individual and pyhsical well being also determine what one carries a 130lb toothpick cannot hide a large frame or double stack well and arthritic hands may not jack a slide well.

I hear ya Mule. Exactly some of the issues I'm dealing with. I am not 130 pounds, but I am a smaller individual, smaller frame. I love my S&W .40 caliber pistol, but it's hard to hide on my person without wearing a longer coat, and these arthritic hands are finding it harder to operate the slide and load the clips, both of which are stiffer than most guns I've used. And the take down of my gun is a bi***! You practically need 3-4 hands to strip it down. Many of todays newer guns function much more easily and smoothly. I can't even get all the rounds my clips hold into the clip! It's not just me though. I had 4 guys at the range trying to load the clip fully and all of us came 1-2 rounds shy of getting it filled. The clips just have a heck of a heavy spring. The clips hold 9 rounds, but I quit at 7. Getting 8 rounds into the clip is damn tough. No one was able to stack 9.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by keithdog

While the Glock 26 isn't the most compact 9mm, it may be the most dependable which is one reason I am considering it. It's also much more compact than what I carry now. But I want to physically compare it to the other guns I mentioned, something I haven't yet done. In the research phase now.

FMJ is what I was referring to. Sorry. The fact that it does not expand is exactly why I was thinking it might be a better option during the winter when an attacker most likely will be wearing multiple layers of clothing. It should penetrate all the layers of clothing better than a hollow point. That's what I'm thinking, but I could be wrong. During summer, when tee shirts rule, hollow points are ideal for sure.

The only time I would shoot lead would be for target shooting, and I would definitely make sure it's safe for the gun. I've shot lead in my S&W which was ok'd by the owner of the gun shop I deal with. So far it's handled it well.

The Glocks are definitely very reliable. The main thing about them is the thickness. It's like everything else though, you can get used to it pretty easily. The 26 has a good balance between concealability and magazine capacity.

FMJ should penetrate fine through clothing but if you don't hit a vital organ, it might not have much stopping power because it will pass straight through with no expansion. I would get on some of the gun forums and research ammo. The Firing Line is a good one. There has to be some ammo that will penetrate and expand.

[keithdog]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

The Glocks are definitely very reliable. The main thing about them is the thickness. It's like everything else though, you can get used to it pretty easily. The 26 has a good balance between concealability and magazine capacity.

FMJ should penetrate fine through clothing but if you don't hit a vital organ, it might not have much stopping power because it will pass straight through with no expansion. I would get on some of the gun forums and research ammo. The Firing Line is a good one. There has to be some ammo that will penetrate and expand.

Thanks for the tip on the gun forum. I'll be sure to check it out.

[bassboogieman]

Keith, gun shopping is FUN, so I've listed some of my opinions relating to your post.

GLOCK - love 'em or hate 'em and whichever side of the fence you're on only matters to you. Personally, I do not like hammerless autos nor am I a fan of the trigger safety on the Glock. All that is strictly personal preference.

Springfield XD - this is FYI only as it is the only experience I've had with that model - and it was a .45. I have heard many reports of the XD having issues with jamming. Earlier this summer I was offered the opportunity to fire one by a guy I met at the range. I turned him down, but my nephew was eager to fire it, as he's thinking about a handgun purchase and always takes an opportunity for hands on when offered. As I alluded to at the beginning, the gun jammed on the second shot. The owner said he's had it do that a few times. For me - I would not own one solely based on that experience and from what I've read that this particular model jams. Any auto may do that, but it seems the XD is getting known for it.

Smith & Wesson are fine weapons. I had a S&W .38 for my first carry gun. I no longer own any S&W and no autos but my AR is a Smith.

Sig - never owned one, but they like the S&W are well made.

9MM - sufficient for personal defense as you're talking close range. Close range a .380 would do the trick. I do have a 9mm Beretta 92 and like it, accurate and it's never failed to fire.

If you're still looking, I would suggest a Ruger. If you like the Glock - hammerless and trigger safety, check out the SR9. Really small concealable, again hammerless, the LC9. And if you're like me and want a hammer and thumb safety the P95. My Ruger is a P345,
(.45 ACP) and it's shoots well and it hasn't misfired, jammed, anything but perform flawlessly. It's a bit much for summer carry although it's classified as a "compact", but I like it.

I've had a few pistols and revolvers in my time and the Ruger is my favorite handgun. Next will likely be the .380 LCP or the P95 (9MM). The Beretta mentioned previously is also a little large for summer carry. I think I need to downsize a bit.

As for loads - I like the bullets with the polymer tip, I believe (and like fishing it's a confidence thing) they chamber easily and are less prone to jamming - VERY important in a pistol (auto) - they penetrate and expand very well. Hollow points offer quicker expansion than round nose, but I think they are more prone to hanging up (auto, revolver is a non issue) than the round nose, so if I don't have the polymer rounds I load the round nose - LAST thing I want in a defense situation is a jam. Really, if you unload the clip in a dirt bag, does a hollow point make THAT much difference? I'm one of those idiots that load the ZOMBIES in my P345, yeah I bought into them, but I'm certain I would not want to be on the receiving end of even one of those.

[Jrob78]

Ruger makes great guns. My first handgun was a P90 (.45) Check out the Ruger SR9c, it might be one to add to your list. Sig also makes great defensive handguns. The P239 is a slim, compact 9mm that would also fit the bill. I almost got one in .40 when I bought my Glock.

[Tavery5]

Keith, I have the XDs .45 by Springfield. It is a very reliable weapon. The single stack design make it very easy to conceal. I have very large hands and find it easy to shoot with the extended mag, the standard mag makes it a little more challenging if you have large hands. This gun also has a very low bore axis, much like the Glock and will pinch your hand if you get in a hurry and do not have correct hand placement.

I own a Glock 19 and a Sig P2022 both in 9mm, they are both great weapons but I much prefer the XDs for C.C.

[MIbasser]

I would stick to a hollow point. For my .40 I have the hornady critical defense round. I would stay away from a +P round. No need for them.

I personally would also stay away from a FMJ round (other then practice). One thing to think about is where is that round going to go after it's released? If you miss or get a through & through, could it end up in a car? Another house? At least when it mushrooms you have a better chance of something else stopping it and not another human.

Just my thought.

[MississippiBoy]

I don't think that FMJ would be the way to go. I bet you could set up a couple of tests with old jackets or something to test the penetration of the hollowpoints. I don't think they'd be a factor, but they might.
Have you looked at the Kahr pistols? I've read a lot of good things about them on my favorite gun forum, http://forums.gunsandammo.com/ They have a recommended break in of about 200 rounds, I think, during which they may not function 100%. But after that, they're supposed to be flawless. I've thought long and hard about getting one for me, because I can't conceal my full size M&P .40.

[keithdog]

http://www.eastexshooting.com/Notice.pdf

Thought I would share this if anyone here should need to know. Tavery, I thought you would want to see this for sure. Don't want anything happening to ya buddy.

[keithdog]

Suddenly, two of the guns I was interested in have safety issues. Glad I didn't rush out to buy anything! Glock is looking better all the time. lol

[Tavery5]

Originally Posted by keithdog

http://www.eastexshooting.com/Notice.pdf

Thought I would share this if anyone here should need to know. Tavery, I thought you would want to see this for sure. Don't want anything happening to ya buddy.

Thanks Keith, I will look into this a little more as my gun is in the serial numbers range of those effected by this recall. I can only offer my personal experience and tell you that I have had no issues mine.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by keithdog

http://www.eastexshooting.com/Notice.pdf

Thought I would share this if anyone here should need to know. Tavery, I thought you would want to see this for sure. Don't want anything happening to ya buddy.

Thanks for posting this Keith. My buddy at work bought a XDs .45 about 6 months ago and his falls in the recall.

[nofearengineer]

357 Mag makes a nice, very concealable self defense weapon. And you definitely don't have to worry about stopping power.

[keithdog]

I just came from the gun shop and got to handle a few. Can't say I disliked any of the ones I looked at. I got my hands on a SW Shield and it felt very nice. They didn't have any XDs due to the recall. The Shield is on recall too but they had a used one at the shop. I also handled a Walther that was very similar to the shield. But I've heard a few complaints about Walthers. The Glock is nice but definitely a bulkier gun. I'm glad I'm not in any kind of hurry. Ease of take down is important to me and Glock seems to have the edge there. They did say the only problem with buying a Shield is that it would probably be around February before I could get my hands on a new one.