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Old 08-15-11, 09:11 PM   #1
keithdog
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OBAMA INHERITED: a AAA credit rating; $1.61 gas (as of 12/31/08); 5.4% unemployment; and an 8 trillion dollar debt (accumulated since 1776, that was called “devastating”). 2 and 1/2 years later, we have an AA credit rating, nearly tripled gas prices, 9-10% unemployment & the debt ceiling is 17 TRILLION. Some STILL say this is a good job! Not sure who is scarier Obama or his supporters. NUMBERS DON’T LIE!
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Old 08-15-11, 11:16 PM   #2
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Couldn't agree more! I was disapointed when he got elected and I have a sickening feeling that he will repeat. I saw where the secret service just shelled out 7 figures for a new tour bus for him too, well good for him
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Old 08-16-11, 07:55 AM   #3
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The seven figures is for 2 busses. The GOP candidate gets one also.
As for the rest of it, like everything else, any story can be spun to give any impression. Yep, gas was 1.61 but that was before huge tax breaks for the rich and corps.
While we're placing blame, let's not forget 2 very expensive, on the cuff, wars.
Let's not forget tax breaks for the rich, tax subsidies for big oil and others who show a profit from the sweat of others while playing up to the indecent spirit of Americans.
When totalitarianism comes to USA, it will come wrapped in a flag and quoting the bible.
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Old 08-16-11, 08:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Tiger View Post
The seven figures is for 2 busses. The GOP candidate gets one also.
As for the rest of it, like everything else, any story can be spun to give any impression. Yep, gas was 1.61 but that was before huge tax breaks for the rich and corps.
While we're placing blame, let's not forget 2 very expensive, on the cuff, wars.
Let's not forget tax breaks for the rich, tax subsidies for big oil and others who show a profit from the sweat of others while playing up to the indecent spirit of Americans.
When totalitarianism comes to USA, it will come wrapped in a flag and quoting the bible.
Seems you're good and spinning things the way you want it too!
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Old 08-16-11, 09:35 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Tiger View Post
The seven figures is for 2 busses. The GOP candidate gets one also.
As for the rest of it, like everything else, any story can be spun to give any impression. Yep, gas was 1.61 but that was before huge tax breaks for the rich and corps.
While we're placing blame, let's not forget 2 very expensive, on the cuff, wars.
Let's not forget tax breaks for the rich, tax subsidies for big oil and others who show a profit from the sweat of others while playing up to the indecent spirit of Americans.
When totalitarianism comes to USA, it will come wrapped in a flag and quoting the bible.
Two wrongs make a right. Check.
Anti-rich talking points. Check.
Anti-corporation, anti-oil talking points. Check.
Anti-war (republican only) talking points. Check.
Pretending the working class produces wealth. Check.
Irrational fear of religious people. Check.

And there you have it, folks. A good part (not all) of the reason our country is in really bad shape. I'm pretty sure TT voted for Obama, and will again. That should tell you everything you need to know.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:01 AM   #6
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The best way I have ever seen it put:

You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong
You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they will not do for themselves.

- Rev. William J. H. Boetcker
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Old 08-16-11, 11:11 AM   #7
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I'll try again, check by check.
They are not just Democrat busses but you're right 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Anti rich? I wish I was rich. I just think they should pay the same tax rate as me. Seems fair.
Corporations are not people! Elections are paid for with MONEY! Are you saying that big business should control our elections? That's also known as fascism.
Anti war? You're damn right I am. After spending multiple tours as a door gunner in Viet Nam, I'm saddened to see the country making the same errors.
This working class family produced wealth enough for itself and profit for various company owners. Same same for most everyone, I guess. Only now working class is now somewhere in S.E. Asia and they get $3.00 a day. A lot more profit for the owners.
I have no fear of religion. I just find it hard to believe that Jesus was a white American. Lord, protect us from some of You're followers.
I voted for Obama and will probably do so again. So far the GOP has offered me, personally, nothing that I can use. Spend my tax dollars to fix the roads or something around here.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:23 AM   #8
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One correction, Top, if you don't mind. The rich actually pay more taxes than you. A review of 2008 income tax data released by the IRS indicates that the top-earning 1 percent of taxpayers absorbed a greater portion of the overall tax burden than the bottom 95% (the first time in the history of our country that this has occurred). Further, the top .1 percent accounted for a little less than 10% of total adjusted gross income while they paid 18.5% of the total tax burden. Over 50% of taxpayers paid $0 in taxes.

I see this everyday in my profession.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:28 AM   #9
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I think they are all equally to blame. Republicans and democrats. Democrats had the same arguments when Bush was in office. If a republican gets elected, democrats will spew this same rhetoric, republicans will blame the previous administration as democrats are doing now. All while nothing really gets accomplished.

As for the gas prices I remember the same crap during the BUSH administration. I belieive the nation average got to 4.11 then. But magically started bottoming out during election time, I bet the same thing happens again.

The whole system is broken, our politicians are too busy pushing their own agendas, and exploiting loopholes in our government. I also think they should go to work just like me and you 5 days a week. Congress should start meeting every business day until some of this mess gets straightened out.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:29 AM   #10
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Sort of my point exactly when you figure that the top 1% or so make 90 something percent of the money. I said the same tax rate, flat or whatever. The same rate.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:33 AM   #11
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One correction, Top, if you don't mind. The rich actually pay more taxes than you. A review of 2008 income tax data released by the IRS indicates that the top-earning 1 percent of taxpayers absorbed a greater portion of the overall tax burden than the bottom 95% (the first time in the history of our country that this has occurred). Further, the top .1 percent accounted for a little less than 10% of total adjusted gross income while they paid 18.5% of the total tax burden. Over 50% of taxpayers paid $0 in taxes.

I see this everyday in my profession.

my heart does not bleed for the 1%. The last time the government tried to stimulate the economy with tax breaks for the rich (like it is doing right now and the past administration) was the decade before the great depression. They were trying to avoid a depression, it did not work. You would think that with almost 10 years of tax breaks behind us now, and nothing getting better they would adbandon this already proven to be broken strategy. Warren Buffet said it best a few days ago. The idea that rich people will not invest their money because they have to pay more taxes on their return is lunacy.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:39 AM   #12
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You'd better be glad for that 1% (though I know you're far too indoctrinated to ever be). They're the ones who know how to move mountains and are responsible for the majority of the wealth in this country. Why you think they should be forced to give it to others is beyond me.

Third world countries have lots of available manual labor. Why aren't they rich? It would seem that wealth is not created with sweat. The difference between us and them is the 1%. Concentration of wealth gets things done.

Why should they even pay the same rate? Does a billionaire cost the government more than some poor uneducated shlub? Hardly. As I said, you should be glad the 1% is paying what they're paying already. You wouldn't have the road you drove to work on, the iphone you called your union rep with, or the computer you posted to this thread with if not for the 1%'ers.

Labor is cheap. Ingenuity and Entrepreneurialism are rare...thus they are more greatly rewarded.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:39 AM   #13
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Again, Top, a humble correction. The top 1% made 20% of the total Adjusted Gross Income but paid 38% of the taxes. The top 1% (those with AGI over $380k in 2008) had an average tax rate of 23.27% while those in the bottom 95% had an average tax rate that was significantly less. Therefore, the facts indicate, that the rich pay more dollars of taxes and pay taxes at a higher rate than you do.

Full disclosure: I'm not rich - far from it. I just understand the facts.

John.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by nofearengineer View Post
Two wrongs make a right. Check.
Anti-rich talking points. Check.
Anti-corporation, anti-oil talking points. Check.
Anti-war (republican only) talking points. Check.
Pretending the working class produces wealth. Check.
Irrational fear of religious people. Check.

And there you have it, folks. A good part (not all) of the reason our country is in really bad shape. I'm pretty sure TT voted for Obama, and will again. That should tell you everything you need to know.



Hey Bryce; You are a very smart young man, I have learned a thing or two from your posts, this last posting of yours was a bit troubling in a few areas;


I was a life long Democrat, was born and raised in an immigrant Brooklyn Household in South Brooklyn, A WORKING CLASS ITALIAN AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOOD
the middle class may not build wealth, they just built and protected America all these years, now the Tea Party wants to vilify them and any union member
I come from a huge Italian/Sicilian family, lots of Uncles and Aunts ( good Catholic families were like this in the early 50's when I was born), none on welfare almost all in Unions
Bricklayers ( if it ends in a vowel, hand it a trowel!),Carpenters, Butchers, Produce Handlers, Longshoremen, Electricians, garbage men, and a lot of the women , like my mom were seamstresses in the ILGWU. They built, fed and cloth this country for a lot of decades.
Many of them cops and firemen, why do doctors and oil executives make more than cops? I have never seen one oil executive put himself between a civilian and a loaded gun, I have never seen a doctor, come crashing out of a fire with a kid in their arms, why are cops and firemen s unions being challenged by these Tea Party Yuppies? In my eyes you can not pay cops and firemen enough for what they do.


The middle class paid SS taxes their whole lives, I am banging on 61 years old, we paid these taxes to help out older citizens, and I would do it again, they only pulled us out of a depression and won WWII, we were promised that the country would have our back in turn, now both parties want to renege on that promise in their own ways for their own reason. The middle class are the true heroes of this country, stop treating us like villains. Maybe you all need time picking up your own garbage, shoveling you own ####, facing loaded guns and burning buildings on your own


I will personally never vote again, unless Rudi Giuliani makes a run fro it, yes Rudi the republican I voted for him and yes I voted for Obama the first time. Obama was the end of a long line of politicians who have NEVER AFFECTED MY STATARD OF LIVING , and who never saw the problems for what they were, and had the balls to solve them, based on constituent needs and not party lines. I am done, Pulled out as a registered Democrat and I am done
2 more issues; 1.61 cent gas, was from the resultant drop to a dollar a gallon when the economy tanked in 07 to 08. The oil ring gamblers were sitting on a lot of processed gasoline and when things came crashing down, the price dropped to a dollar, they were afraid of getting stuck with too much on hand. The price og gas has more going on than supply and demand it has a lot to do with the futures ring and the gamblers found there
and finally the Bail out was passed as part of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008
that was drafted and passed in Oct 2008, one month before Obama was elected, and 4 months before he took the oath of office. Bush and Bernake were very responsible for this, and I am not smart enough to argue what will work and what will not, but the bailouts were drawn up before Obama got the seat, that is just historical observation


As a country we have stopped listening to each other, and the news media is so biased from CNBC on the left to Ailes and Fox on the right, we yell at each other, we no longer talk to each other and we are getting no where. WHY ARE WE RED AND BLUE, I think it would be best for all of us to be united as RED< WHITE AND BLUE and reel the News Media and Professional Politicians in, this is where the ugliness is for me.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:47 AM   #15
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Hi Doc, Mr. Buffet was quoted as saying that many of his super rich buddies wouldn't mind to pay more dollars in taxes - especially considering his perception of the suffering of many Americans. My question to him is this - if these folks really wouldn't mind to part with their dollars, why would they not donate to a charity, provide scholarships to inner-city or needy children, or volunteer their time. Friends, in my opinion, donations and personal love for others can never be replaced by governement coerced reallocation of dollars - especially at a greater extent than what is already occuring.

And for a flat tax - let's do it. But I assure you, it won't be the mega rich that would be complaining - it would be the over 50% of folks that don't currently pay taxes.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:51 AM   #16
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same argument different administration. Nothing has "changed" nothing will "change". Republicans now are running on the premise that washington is ''broken" (sigh). Nothing will change until republicans and democrats stop the "whos at fault'' , look what you did, nu uh you did it mentality and actually start working together.

the whole lot of them should be fired, and stripped of their government perks. IMO
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Old 08-16-11, 11:55 AM   #17
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Dom,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being working class. The world needs bakers, butchers, and bricklayers too.

There is something wrong with being working class, and being bitter about it to the point of blaming the people who give you a job. There is no other country with the upward mobility we have in the United States.

The vast majority of the poor working class in America stay poor because they don't bother to learn how math or money works, and they make poor decisions. There is of course, some luck involved, as there is in anything, but I have found that oddly, bad luck tends to hit the unprepared the most.

I'm not saying any of this to be mean or arrogant. These are cold, hard truths of life.
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Old 08-16-11, 11:57 AM   #18
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Ebbetsguy, you're right. Obama has disappointed me too but it still seems a better offering for me than to have the Bachman, Perry Overdrive "Takin' Care of Business"
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Old 08-16-11, 11:58 AM   #19
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Hi Doc, Mr. Buffet was quoted as saying that many of his super rich buddies wouldn't mind to pay more dollars in taxes - especially considering his perception of the suffering of many Americans. My question to him is this - if these folks really wouldn't mind to part with their dollars, why would they not donate to a charity, provide scholarships to inner-city or needy children, or volunteer their time. Friends, in my opinion, donations and personal love for others can never be replaced by governement coerced reallocation of dollars - especially at a greater extent than what is already occuring.

And for a flat tax - let's do it. But I assure you, it won't be the mega rich that would be complaining - it would be the over 50% of folks that don't currently pay taxes.
sorry, the article I read had him saying "The claim that, if taxes on deca-millionaire and billionaires were increased, these super-rich Americans would stop investing, thus clobbering the economy and hurting job growth: Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.
I didn't refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what's happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.''


I don't want it to look like I'm for one side or the other because at this point I blame both sides equally. Just trying to get my point across that it's the same rhetoric over and over again thru different adminstrations.

I believe Mr. Buffet has even said this before during the bush administration. He does make a good point. and if this quote is true


'' Buffett observes that his own personal taxes as a percent of his income have plummeted in the past decade, to all-time lows. He observes, as he has before, that he pays a much lower tax rate than his secretary. He calls out the absurdity of hedge-fund managers and other professional investors playing "long-term capital gains" rates on short-term trading profits.''

Then I do see a valid reason for him to call BS. Do I think the rich should pay all the taxes? No, but they should at least pay the same rate.
As for that 50% that doesn't pay taxes, I dunno, but I do know that they should not get a tax refund, or EIC for their 8 kids. IMO
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Old 08-16-11, 12:07 PM   #20
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If we stopped paying 100 million Americans to do nothing (this includes welfare recipients, pointless subsidies, government bureaucrats, etc.), we could all have a tax break.

Unfortunately, I don't know how we're ever going to break the cycle. Once we gave the vote to unlanded, uneducated poor, we were doomed. Those who sit on their butts are never going to vote for fewer handouts. Milking the system has replaced baseball as the national pastime.
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Old 08-16-11, 12:09 PM   #21
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Milking the system has replaced baseball as the national pastime.

quote of the day
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Old 08-16-11, 12:10 PM   #22
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I hate these discussions, because nobody is going to change anybody else's mind about anything.
"Those persuaded against their will, are of the same mind still."
But all that being said....
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Old 08-16-11, 12:11 PM   #23
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My last attempt guys, I'm not sure where Mr. Buffet gets his numbers or why he knows his secretary's income tax rate, but the cold hard facts of life are that the rich both pay a higher amount of taxes (in dollars) and a higher tax rate.

I learned a long time ago that numbers do not lie - even if you don't like them.
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Old 08-16-11, 12:18 PM   #24
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@MississippiBoy

A deer eating popcorn does bring a welcome relief to this discussion.
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Old 08-16-11, 12:37 PM   #25
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And if that one doesn't work, I've also got this one:

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