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Old 11-04-08, 05:41 PM   #26
WTL
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I think you do misunderstand.

OK, here goes. I care very much who is President. I care also who I endorse. When you vote, you endorse someone.


I cannot endorse either McCain or Obama. They are both terrible choices.


There are people who utter false maxims like "if you don't vote, you can't complain" and "if you vote 3rd party, it is a wasted vote". If you follow these two maxims, you basically allow yourself to become the stooge of the current power structure, which many believe to be broken. Not voting because of apathy is, as you said useless. But not voting in protest, which I do, is a powerful statement against the status quo of the current political climate.

Those who allow themselves to have their arms twisted into voting for the lesser of two evils make certain that they will get yet more evil candidates 2 or 4 years later. You have to hold on to your vote, and only give it to those you really believe in - otherwise you disenfranchise yourself.

Cassy, believe it or not I didnt realize this conversation was heated!
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Old 11-04-08, 05:41 PM   #27
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I agree with some of what you said, cassid, but i will not agree with the burning of the flag...you may believe they died for this and that but...burning of the flag is destroying the symbol of the country that many died for
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Old 11-04-08, 05:45 PM   #28
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ok WTL, you believe Obama is the worse of two evils, so why would you not try to get the less of two evils...ok lets just say that they both will do a bad job, but if one will do worse than the other than, wouldn't you want as little problems done as possible...
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Old 11-04-08, 05:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw1503 View Post
and as i said previously, i voted all republican, but i am not forced to, i have the right to choose a republican president and vote all democrats to the house and then split the house,

And I quote Doc, "That in my opinion is the greatest thing about being a registered independent, your not pigeonholed in to 1 party that you have to vote for."

No one is forced to vote all one party, they can vote how they please!!!!

Ok, dude ill bite. I'll dive into this philosopical agument with you.

The great part is this almost lies in the same argument your presenting to WTL.

Go vote even if you dont believe in anyone running its your civic duty to settle for 1 and go vote. It's easy to settle isn't it. What decides the settling for a candidate line for the majority of people you think?
PARTY AFFILIATION

You see there are that people associate themselves with either party based on what they believe, and it's ok if that candidate doesn't fully believe in what you do because you settle for your side.

Then there are a few of us who believe Independently of party lines, who do not settle for a candidate. Who particapate in the Election process, vote in the Primaries, watch the debates and then say. Meh! they are both butt-clowns with hidden agendas and baggage. And instead of picking a lesser candidate than what we had truely hoped for in the primaries. We decide to sit it out, hoping that next time will be the time for us.


I can tell from your posts your the right winged republican dude. If anyone opposes your views they are un-american and should be labled a pinhead by the factor. In typican fashion, far sided party members take quotes and twist the meaning, you know what I meant and you know what I said holds merit. You are in fact pidgeon holed into voting (in your case) republican because you just cant stand the thought of the other guys.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:51 PM   #30
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Okay, I will break what I said about staying silent for the purpose of explaining what I meant. I never would condone the burning of the flag, however, the right to do so is protected.
One of the things that I loved most about serving in the Marines is that we were not afforded the luxury to pick and choose what orders we followed. Upon enlistment and subsequent re enlistments, I would raise my right hand and swear to protect and defend the constitution of the United States of America. I myself would never want to see a flag destroyed, but our country considers the ability to do so to be protected as an expression of free speech. It is not up to me to decide where that line is drawn. Because of that I am left with a choice of accepting or rejecting the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in its entirety.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:52 PM   #31
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yes i vote republican, as i have said before, and i never said others who other parties are not americans, actually that makes them just aas much american as me, and more american than non-voters. and i will ask a question, have you ever voted for president
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Old 11-04-08, 05:53 PM   #32
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ok WTL, you believe Obama is the worse of two evils, so why would you not try to get the less of two evils...ok lets just say that they both will do a bad job, but if one will do worse than the other than, wouldn't you want as little problems done as possible...
I'm glad the conversation is going in this direction. Good question.

I don't want Obama President. That is very, very true.

The problem first is, for me personal. I do believe strongly that a vote is a vote for someone, not against. When you vote for someone, you vouch for them. You give them your personal support, and they take from that a mandate. By voting for McCain, if he were to be elected, he would then take my vote and millions like them and say "look here, I have the support of the people! They want my policies of larger government, continued war, and campaign finance regulations"

Now of course, I didn't vote for those policies. I voted against the most evil (Obama) and for the least (McCain). But somewhere that vote morphs from a vote cast agains someone in the booth to a vote in favor of someone in Washington, and I'm not comfortable with that.


Second, voting for McCain would further entrench the current sad state of the GOP. The republicans used to stand for something, now they dont. McCain is almost as liberal as the average democrat. My non-vote sends a message to GOP higherups that they really have strayed from their principals, and the next candidate they put in better damn well be better than McCain. If I were to capitulate and vote for McCain now, it would be doing a small part to make sure we get another McCain like liberal again in 4 years.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:53 PM   #33
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This will be my last post on this topic because it is reaching a heated point that i would rather not be a part of.
I do not believe that anyone used any of the excuses listed above for a reason not to vote. I believe that the statement I heard the most was. "I did not like either candidate" You make voting for a president sound like King Solomon and the baby. (1Kings 3) That we are forced to choose to make a choice we do not like because it is the right thing to do.
As far as the benefits fought and died for. This is a topic that you need to tread lightly on. Guess what, those same men and women fought and died for the right to be an American. The right to vote or not to vote. The right to complain and stay silent. At the end of the day, those individuals fought died for the flag and every American's right to burn it. If you disagree, then I respect your opinion on that, but do not say that we the veteran's fought for you as long as you complete this checklist. Doing so cheapens the value of anything we as a country have ever fought for.

I'm not a veteran. Infact the only thing I ever fought for was the last beer.
But I agree with you sir. And we are grateful to all the veterans and their families that fought and sacaficed to protect those rights. We can never shout that thank you loud enough.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:54 PM   #34
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ok...cassid, thanks for clearing that up, and just for the record thank you for your service!!!!
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Old 11-04-08, 05:55 PM   #35
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*peeks around the corner*

So....ermmm....did anyone else vote?
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Old 11-04-08, 05:55 PM   #36
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I agree with some of what you said, cassid, but i will not agree with the burning of the flag...you may believe they died for this and that but...burning of the flag is destroying the symbol of the country that many died for
I totally agree we should put them in jail, or deport them.

Lets also jail or deport anyone who doesn't like baseball hell it is our official "national pastime".

Helmet laws for everyone, even if you dont ride a motorcycle or are over the age of 18.

Is it disrespectful to burn the flag absolutely, never in my house. I won't even let one touch the ground.
If you impose your will on everyone, then it's not a free country.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:56 PM   #37
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yes i vote republican, as i have said before, and i never said others who other parties are not americans, actually that makes them just aas much american as me, and more american than non-voters. and i will ask a question, have you ever voted for president

yes I have. In every election since I was 18 minus this one.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:56 PM   #38
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I'm glad the conversation is going in this direction. Good question.

I don't want Obama President. That is very, very true.

The problem first is, for me personal. I do believe strongly that a vote is a vote for someone, not against. When you vote for someone, you vouch for them. You give them your personal support, and they take from that a mandate. By voting for McCain, if he were to be elected, he would then take my vote and millions like them and say "look here, I have the support of the people! They want my policies of larger government, continued war, and campaign finance regulations"

Now of course, I didn't vote for those policies. I voted against the most evil (Obama) and for the least (McCain). But somewhere that vote morphs from a vote cast agains someone in the booth to a vote in favor of someone in Washington, and I'm not comfortable with that.


Second, voting for McCain would further entrench the current sad state of the GOP. The republicans used to stand for something, now they dont. McCain is almost as liberal as the average democrat. My non-vote sends a message to GOP higherups that they really have strayed from their principals, and the next candidate they put in better damn well be better than McCain. If I were to capitulate and vote for McCain now, it would be doing a small part to make sure we get another McCain like liberal again in 4 years.
Well said.
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Old 11-04-08, 05:57 PM   #39
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ok..well, i can see what you are saying wtl, i am unerstanding a little more now, but i want to know, is the shot to GOP, worth it, if you know that he could of done a better job, than the person he is running against
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Old 11-04-08, 05:59 PM   #40
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And we are grateful to all the veterans and their families that fought and sacaficed to protect those rights. We can never shout that thank you loud enough.
Here, here!

I told someone the other day that I couldnt wait till the election was over, I could be proud to be a Republican again. When your party has the President, it is a cult of personality. Our policies become the policies of the President or the candidate.

Now, we a freeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Old 11-04-08, 06:01 PM   #41
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There were several other candidates in the primaries that I would have rather seen on the ballot today. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. You have to pick the one that you feel will do the least damage to the country. I don't worry about what the new prez might do in the next four years except for appointments he may make to the supreme court and other judgeships. Those guys will be around for many years and could really screw things up. There has been a change in the way some organizations try to get things done. It is too hard to get the constitution changed so they get one of these radical judges to rule on a case and skirt the constitution by coming up with a "new" interpretation of the law that is not what the founding fathers intended.
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Old 11-04-08, 06:04 PM   #42
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is the shot to GOP, worth it...than the person he is running against

You know that is the question.



I think so....


The damage done by Obama being Pres for 4 years will be less than the damage done to the nation if the Republican party ceases to exist as a voice for limited government.

Just look at Bush. Did anybody *really* think Bush was a good choice in 2000? Look where it got the party, electing that guy!

We need to hold out for better options.
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Old 11-04-08, 07:51 PM   #43
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OK, now that the dust has cleared. lol

My wife, daughter and me voted this morning.

We were in line 1hr40mins.

We got in line at 9:45, but I heard earlier this morning the wait time was 2-2 1/2hrs.
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Old 11-04-08, 08:16 PM   #44
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I just got done voting. It took a whole 5 minutes!! Not a line at all.
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Old 11-04-08, 08:17 PM   #45
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Voted this morning before work. I'm a morning person and was at the polls around 6am.
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Old 11-04-08, 09:14 PM   #46
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hahaha mb. i like that pal. YES i VOTED!!! SO DID LISA!!!!
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Old 11-04-08, 10:37 PM   #47
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Just remember, IF YOU DON'T VOTE, YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO B!TCH ABOUT WHO'S ELECTED. (unless you're not old enough like me. )



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Old 11-04-08, 10:43 PM   #48
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I understand the arguments presented for not voting for president. If you don't want to endorse either candidate I understand. However, I don't hardly understand how you can choose not to vote when the president is but one vote of probably 30 on the ballot. Are you seriously saying that no-one on the entire ballot is worthy of any vote? That no other office, whether state, local, county, district, etc is important? If you don't know the candidates then you haven't done your homework to educate yourself. So, choosing to 'not vote' and not go to the polls because you don't like Obama or McCain is hard to understand when there are many other choices to make.
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Old 11-04-08, 10:46 PM   #49
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Are you seriously saying that no-one on the entire ballot is worthy of any vote? That no other office, whether state, local, county, district, etc is important? If you don't know the candidates then you haven't done your homework to educate yourself. So, choosing to 'not vote' and not go to the polls because you don't like Obama or McCain is hard to understand when there are many other choices to make.
No, I couldnt say that. I would have voted in the case of those guys, but I happened to move and I didnt get registered in this county. But I agree, should have and I will next time. I'm actually watching the election coverage now just lookin at congress, as Obama has already won.
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Old 11-04-08, 11:25 PM   #50
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Yes I voted today, and let me be the first to say:
Don't blame me, I voted for McKinney:

j/k
I did vote, but not for that nut.
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