Just sayin

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I'd rather starve on my own two feet than feast on my knees (wow...that sounded really weird).

That's not what Bruce said....
Man, even that smiley face fits both entendres....

[nofearengineer]

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

"Republicanism:The unshakable belief that those priveleged from birth, achieved success all on their own."

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Socialism: The unshakeable belief that nobody with wealth did anything to deserve it.

Ooh, ooh, ooh....I've got one, too.

Liberalism: the belief that anyone can follow their own path, that each person can do or say anything they want, and that there can be many answers to the same question, because each person has their "own truth....."
.......right up to the point where you disagree with a liberal. At that point, you're just wrong, period.

[Dogmatic]

Hey, Rusty, good for you! But the answer to my question is...?

That anyone feels they have the same interest, or concerns that the billionaires funding the right-wing super-pacs have, just amazes me. That these hard-working, job creators have the same at stake, in the success of the U.S., that the rest of us have is just naive.

[nofearengineer]

Dogmatic, you just can't get over the fact that someone else has more money than you, can you?

Here's my recommendation for your therapy:

1. Turn off your computer and internet convention invented by rich, fat, white men.

2. Go get in your truck and boat produced by companies owned by rich, fat, white men. Use some fuel produced by oil companies owned by rich, fat, white men.

3. Go fishing using your tackle produced by companies owned by rich, fat, white men.

You're right...rich, fat, white men are just out of touch with the rest of us.

And the products they produce certainly haven't made your life any better.

[RustyFender]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

Hey, Rusty, good for you! But the answer to my question is...?

That anyone feels they have the same interest, or concerns that the billionaires funding the right-wing super-pacs have, just amazes me. That these hard-working, job creators have the same at stake, in the success of the U.S., that the rest of us have is just naive.

Well Dog I'm not sure what you're question really was. You have managed to completely blur the lines between tongue in cheek/sarcasm/circular logic and outright stupidity.
If course I am well aware that the Left has no super pacs funded by like minded billionaires. The lefts super pacs must be funded by the poor unfortunates who are donating $1 and $2 at a time by selling a few food stamps or forgoing the purchase of a few scratch off tickets this week. Talk about naive----kettle meet pot.

[Dogmatic]

Getting rich has never been a goal of mine, money isn't as important to me, as it must be to you, and I don't adhere to the belief that if I work real hard, and bust my a$$, that I too, will become a member of that class that has continually sold the rest of us out, for their personal gain. The facts don't lie...In the last 30+ yrs. of trickle down economics, while middle class wages have remained stagnant, the wealthy have triple digit gains(percentage wise). If you don't believe that this income disparity is a troubling indicator of how bad things have become then you are naive.

Rusty...really? First, for every "left leaning" billionaire, you name, I'll name three right "leaning" ones, and their interest in subverting/buying the system. Don't be that naive. Second, the question was(pretty obvious), when you bring up our President's color/race what is your point?

[senkosam]

Independent Party viewpoint:
1.The congress and president have been bought for years and sold to the voting public as people with answers and morals. Thousands dead, trillions spent and nothing to show for except tombstones, a money sucking black hole and people scrambling to stay above water almost to the point of every man for himself.
2. Corporations that fund the one or many with guarentees they will increase their bottom line. Granted, some benefit up and own the ladder, but at what cost and who's benefit?
3. Integrity and accountability in government? Give some examples and I'll bet there are a hundred examples of where neither existed.

As far as the candidates are concerned - what exactly are their plans, specifically? Without bipartisan support, the best plan in the world will not be adopted. Then you have to ask the question - why wasn't it supported.

Too bad Dave (Kevin Kline) or the likes of Jimmie Stewart isn't running for office....only in the movies....

[nofearengineer]

Dogmatic, if money isn't important to you, why do you seem to want so much of mine?

I pay over 40% of my salary in taxes of some sort or another, and yet it isn't enough to satisfy the hungry liberal beast.

At what point do I get to enjoy the fruits of my labor, rather than wasting it feeding, clothing, educating (trying to at least ), and paying for the healthcare of those who will NEVER thank me?

[RustyFender]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

Getting rich has never been a goal of mine, money isn't as important to me, as it must be to you, and I don't adhere to the belief that if I work real hard, and bust my a$$, that I too, will become a member of that class that has continually sold the rest of us out, for their personal gain. The facts don't lie...In the last 30+ yrs. of trickle down economics, while middle class wages have remained stagnant, the wealthy have triple digit gains(percentage wise). If you don't believe that this income disparity is a troubling indicator of how bad things have become then you are naive.

Do really believe that the people who have managed to prosper have done so at the expense of the middle class? In the past 30 years the gimme mindset has exploded, the masses who should be making up the middle class by now are instead lamenting their "plight" and trying to blame anyone but themselves and find succesful "rich" people an easy target.
30 years ago I could easily fill skilled positions with good solid hard working people, people that wanted to advance-contribute-build a future-provide for their family-be independant-self sufficient. Now not so much. Applicants are weak-weak-weak.

[senkosam]

Did you forget the three wars conservatives and liberals voted to endorse? Trillions wasted then and now, without end and none of it benefiting America. Incompetence, corruption and unaccountabiltiy crosses party lines and promises made are rarely kept. It's not that simple! Democracy has been hijacked and the founding fathers are rolling in their graves.

Atlas Shrugged.

[nofearengineer]

Senkosam,

The problem isn't with the government. Yes, they're terrible, but the real problem lies with the populace.

Uneducated, lazy, and far, far more corrupt than the politicians.

They continue to vote for candidates who promise them money from someone else's pockets.

Now, we can continue stealing that money back and forth forever if we want to. The politicians love that, because with us distracted, they manage to skim off some every cycle. This conflict is their bread and butter.

I am so tired of seeing on the street interviews with people who don't even know who they're voting for. An uneducated vote is a vote for tyranny.

[RustyFender]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

Second, the question was(pretty obvious), when you bring up our President's color/race what is your point?

I suppose the point you're making when you bring up my candidates race (you're welcome to deny it but the bullets already out of the gun) or the same point you're making when you point out his success. It's OK if money isn't important to you, but hating people who create wealth and blaming them for societys ills is preposterous.

I'm sick of talking about this...your ilk is so indoctrinated that trying to talk sense into you all is akin to peeing on maggots>>>>>they don't care, they already live in filth anyway.

[senkosam]

Oversimplification maybe, but I agree with you in part. The latest generation of people have become more self-centered than the last and the higher you go up the social ladder the more contempt you find for the values that once made this country exceptional. Money is indeed being wasted and someone has to pay, if not now, when?
Neither party is up to stopping the waste due to the consequences of rising unemployment, lowered productivity, lessening stimulus, etc. but when will government be held accountable and stop the waste? Not in your or my lifetimes.

I've stopped watching Bill Moyers because it's too depressing to see the problems identified and solutions ignored. Just go fishing and maintain the family and friendships that mean something in a country where important things stopped mattering after Eisenhower. There are still islands in this country that represent true America and detest what America in general has become.

[Dogmatic]

Yes! Now we are arguing the real issues! Our system is broken, and it's not about pitting one group against another, it's about US. I want to see everyone succeed, I want to be a citizen of a vibrate, innovating, prosperous society, and nation. I believe that the way to this society is through a "middle road", that favors no group in particular. I don't begrudge anyone their success, no matter how they got it, we all work in our own self interest. I come from a very privileged background, my father worked, and his father before him, worked very hard to provide me and my six brothers, and sisters the opportunity to be the most successful people we could be. That included the very best education we could receive. An opportunity I don't think is available to everyone. Yes, the problem lies with us, but it is hard to change a system that is controlled, not by us, but monied interest that have only their own preservation, and not the common good, at heart. The first step, get the money out of our politics.

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by senkosam

I've stopped watching Bill Moyers because it's too depressing to see the problems identified and solutions ignored.

Ah!...but identifying the problems is the first step, I don't miss an episode, and re-watch each one over and over...Bill is an enlightening glimmer of hope, in this rather depressing quagmire we are in.

[bassboogieman]

DAYUM, this has been a busy morning, and it takes a while to get caught up. But I'm done stirrin' da pot.

BUT 'Sippidude.........

That's not what Bruce said....

Don't get me in more trouble than I'm already in.

Bryce feasting on his knees, I'm still laughing my arse off with that mental image. Help, I'm feasting and I can't get up.

OK, I now return you to the slings and arrows portion of this thread.

[Top Tiger]

I've been following this thread for a couple of days now and what I don't understand is how people who claim to have come from meager beginnings themselves, show such hatefulness and an almost criminal lack of basic human empathy? I've chimed in a few times and been called stupid, drinker of kool-aid and a bunch of other, less than flattering, names. I'm none of those things. Do I agree with everything the current administration is doing? No. Do I want to look at Alan/Allen West of Florida and his ilk as a viable alternative? Of course not. I'd like to think that myself and a good portion of the rest of us are not in the extreme in either direction. Hatred and vitriole is not condusive to problem solving.

[RustyFender]

Originally Posted by Top Tiger

I've been following this thread for a couple of days now and what I don't understand is how people who claim to have come from meager beginnings themselves, show such hatefulness and an almost criminal lack of basic human empathy? I've chimed in a few times and been called stupid, drinker of kool-aid and a bunch of other, less than flattering, names. I'm none of those things. Do I agree with everything the current administration is doing? No. Do I want to look at Alan/Allen West of Florida and his ilk as a viable alternative? Of course not. I'd like to think that myself and a good portion of the rest of us are not in the extreme in either direction. Hatred and vitriole is not condusive to problem solving.

Hey TT your post yesterday morning about the K-mart spanking and millionaire forum members being scared of the gov't was in fact quoted a couple of times but I couldn't find where anybody spoke ill of you. Maybe you're refering to threads from the past. Reading posts from members here oriented right, I don't hear hatefulness or lack of empathy. I hear people that resent paying high taxes just to see the gov spend that money irresponsibly. Empathy is one thing but just pouring money on poverty doesn't fix it. If it did then poverty would have vanished long ago. After all the billions the US has spent on the poverty problem, it persists. Why?

BTW if you think Alan West is out there, just listen to the puke D. Wasserman Schultz is spouting. In that regard I would have to agree with Mr. West, she's no lady

[Top Tiger]

Rusty, I was referring to another thread from times past. You're right though nobody jumped on me yesterday.
I don't endorse just throwing money at poor people but by the same token a lot of folks in this country live in abject squalor through no fault of their own. Those folks need a hand up, not a boot to the neck because when hope is gone, that's where anger starts. I would much rather have a friend that I've helped to help than an enemy that's after everything that I have and hold dear. Wouldn't you?
As far as govt. goes--- I believe a big part of the problem is the politicians themselves. I guess, as they say, power is a narcotic of the strongest sort.
Govt., as an organization, is very inefficient. In a large sense, it can't be anything but inefficient and still attempt to see to the needs of over 300,000,000 of us. And yes, the Govt. has a hand in everything anyone does. Whether we like it or not. I'd like to see them working more for the interests of all of us instead of primarily for the special interests also known as BIG MONEY no matter which side of the aisle it flows from or to.

[doc]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I would vote for eliminating all entitlements. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare...EVERYTHING.

All government charity ever produces is more outstretched hands.

We used to be a proud people. Proud of how much we could accomplish with our sweat. That pride has been replaced with envy of how much stuff the other guy has.

Now this country is full of people who think it is okay to live off someone else's back, and that you should be ASHAMED of even hinting at not wanting to support them.

Well, you guys know I'm never ashamed to speak my mind.

The true "greedy" are the mob, voting themselves money out of others' pockets. But never fear, these people are going to starve, one way or another. We simply have a choice of whether we go down with them.

As the father of a disabled child that receives SSI I find your statement very disturbing. Have you ever tried to insure a child with a pre existing condition?
You know those programs were started because there is a real need right, how about we get rid of the people boinking the system. Heaven forbid you get old one day and need to collect benefits for some reason or another. I hope that you will be a man of your own conviction and quickly fade out from exposure, lack of medical attention, or starvation to prove your point (do you see how incorrect that sounded).

[MO_CPA]

Originally Posted by doc

As the father of a disabled child that receives SSI I find your statement very disturbing. Have you ever tried to insure a child with a pre existing condition?
You know those programs were started because there is a real need right, how about we get rid of the people boinking the system. Heaven forbid you get old one day and need to collect benefits for some reason or another. I hope that you will be a man of your own conviction and quickly fade out from exposure, lack of medical attention, or starvation to prove your point (do you see how incorrect that sounded).

In a perfect world, personal charity would provide the support for folks in need and there would be no need for government entitlement. While that may have been alright in the distant past - when people were usually focused around small knit communities - there is no way it is viable now. I agree with Doc. The people on the programs that need it are not the problem. It's the people 'smoozing' the system that we need to focus on.

[nofearengineer]

Well, doc...if you can figure out a way to eliminate the ones who really need it from those who don't, I'll back you all the way.

Good luck with that. God knows it's never been tried before.

If (when) you can't...do I deserve higher tax rates? 50%? 60%? More?

I'm sorry about your kid. That really sucks. I hope I never have to face something like that. But does your misfortune give you the right to take my money against my will?

Perhaps if the government wasn't stealing all of the wealth of its citizens, they would have more left to help people like you. Oh, I know you'd probably have to be grateful and say thank you, and might even have to endure the mention of God by kind Christians, and all of that horrible stuff that you don't have to do when the government just mails you a check, but oh well...

[Dogmatic]

For Christians(and presumably Creationist), much of what has been said sounds awfully like Ayn Rand's social darwinism...how ironic.

Government is doing a pretty lousy job stealing our wealth, considering revenue is down, and the top 1% have had 30 years of triple digit growth in wealth.

[MO_CPA]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Well, doc...if you can figure out a way to eliminate the ones who really need it from those who don't, I'll back you all the way.

Good luck with that. God knows it's never been tried before.

If (when) you can't...do I deserve higher tax rates? 50%? 60%? More?

I'm sorry about your kid. That really sucks. I hope I never have to face something like that. But does your misfortune give you the right to take my money against my will?

Perhaps if the government wasn't stealing all of the wealth of its citizens, they would have more left to help people like you. Oh, I know you'd probably have to be grateful and say thank you, and might even have to endure the mention of God by kind Christians, and all of that horrible stuff that you don't have to do when the government just mails you a check, but oh well...

I preface this with the fact that I am one of the most conservative people you will talk to....not that it matters. With that said, I think we are walking a thin line here. As Americans, in my humble opinion, we live as a part of a social contract. Whereby, we are inclined to care about people we don't even know, help those that are in need, and look out for one another...Any society, no matter how large is going to need some level of government assistance for its people. Just because you are dealt a bad hand shouldn't mean that you are just screwed, left for dead, or left to be destitute. The opposite should be so. So for the way I stand, I am more than willing to ante up a pennace to the government in order to have a safety net should I...God forbid....become disabled or unable to be independently sufficient. Likewise, I don't feel that people that are on the other side of the coin are "taking" my money.

Accountability is what we lack in the programs. Should we have these necessary (in my opinion) programs, we must have accountability in them; to make sure those that shouldn't be there aren't and those that should are...should they so choose.

I am with Doc on this one...if we have the experience that he has personally, we may all have a different opinion.