How far will this go?

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by keithdog

I was just listening to the radio today and they were talking about this subject and pointed out that a very similar attack just occured last week in China. A guy who was convinced the end of the world was near killed his neighbor lady with a knife, and went to the elementary school and stabbed over 20 young children. How many died I don't know. If your demented, you'll find a way. I can deal with banning high capacity clips, but thats about it. You don't need a 30 round clip to hunt with. But an AR15 semi auto works just the same as any other semi auto hunting rifle.
What I think your going to see is a greater amount of attention to getting care for those who have mental illnesses. Not so much gun control. Thats the biggest issue in this arena. The stigma against mental illness sickens me, and is a very hard issue for society to deal with. You can have any sort of physical illness and everyone accepts it and is glad to see you get the needed care. However, if one is bipoler or has any other mental illness that makes life in public difficult at best, people say, get your act together! Tighten your boot straps and get moving. The fact is, people with these problems simply cant "get it together" without help. And ignoring this is inviting tragedy. As a society, we can no longer keep looking the other way and wanting those with mental illness to just go away. They are here, and if they don't get the help they need, the drugs that can control their issues, then tragedies such as what happened in Conn. will continue.

No children died, in the attack in China. Seconds count, so having to change clips would make a difference. A 6 yr old shot 11 times with the 5.56 would be pretty horrific. Anyone with tactical handgun tactics would tell you that there is more to personal combat then just carrying a gun. We all know the Assault Weapons Ban was BS, anyone familiar with guns and the aftermarket knows we could always get what ever we wanted. Last, I am a gun owner, hunter, and father of a 5 and 9 yr old. I would never give up my rights to my guns, but really, you NEED an AR or AK w/high capacity mags? The solutions aren't in gun/ammo control, mental healthcare, arming teachers, body armor for our children, but in personal decision to change, to be a part of the change that is needed in turning our culture away from guns and violence.

[lilmule]

He did have 2 9mm semi autos then a bushmaster,some are however in the industry bowing to the adverse publicity bushmaster is for sale,dicks,walmart have pulled what most deem as assault rifles.
No I dont need a barret 50 cal,or 100 rd drum mags,also dont need big brother in my pockets more or regulating more.
Their answer is for them to make guns just harder to get as he did not go buy one,many have gone and bought an ar15 thinking they will be banned gun sales tripled in a month.
Fact is if they were soon after a 400 dollar lic would apply in order to keep, thats yearly just like full auto weapons,is a 223 worth that as a deer rifle no then again they get their way.Next up is caliber restrictions in europe one cannot own a 9mm and up,so home defense becomes 32 acp( I like the round),25,or 22.
Does one need a mauser to hunt deer with its military,no but surplus bolt action rifles are cheap and viable weapon for hunting,yet can be placed under same bans as ak etc.After all Kennedy was shot with a 14 dollar surplus italian rifle of dubious small caliber.
Give them 1 in they will take a mile

[nofearengineer]

But Joe...we've all heard about the dozens of times in Texas teachers have snapped and killed their students...oh wait....

[bassboogieman]

Yo Dog - Northampton High School is getting a little too close to home. Those Bucks County guns are going berserk. Copy Cats - big danger right now. Hey that kid in CT is getting so much National attention - those other poor kids need attention too. Another mother leaving her guns where they can be stolen by her son... Yep let's ban those guns... Maybe a consideration of those evil video games that feature blood and carnage - kill the Zombies, or other villians. Splatter them all, that's the ticket - just another harmless video game, it isn't real. Some of these kids obviously have a distorted notion of reality, seems that prior to the advent of video mayhem this was not as big a problem. Possible influence? Maybe it's the video games and not the guns we should worry so much about... Huh?

[nofearengineer]

I'm thinking of waiting on my AR purchase. For a third of the price, I can buy enough 30-round magazines to hold over a thousand, quickly accessible rounds. Then buy the rifle when I can get a better price. For some reason the inexpensive ones are all out of stock right now.

I think the magazines are what is most likely in danger. The Republicans will probably cave and ban the sale of high capacity magazines, rather than ban the rifles. It's what happened with handguns. I cherish the 15-round magazine I have now for my handgun.

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I cherish the 15-round magazine I have now for my handgun.

I have 4.
No AR, but I've thought about it some over the past couple of years.

[Jrob78]

You should see my Glock 27 with 4" of magazine sticking out the bottom of the gun.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

You should see my Glock 27 with 4" of magazine sticking out the bottom of the gun.

Sounds like an assault weapon to me. I mean, do you really need that for hunting deer? (I love how they always ask that, despite no mention of deer hunting in the Bill of Rights ).

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Sounds like an assault weapon to me. I mean, do you really need that for hunting deer? (I love how they always ask that, despite no mention of deer hunting in the Bill of Rights ).

That's something that most people don't really consider. The 2nd Amendment wasn't speaking about hunting firearms, it was speaking about guns of war. "Well regulated militia," has absolutely nothing to do with hunting. Self defense handguns and rifles are exactly what the 2nd Amendment sought to protect.

[pro reel]

I must be like totally clueless to how the other half of this country thinks. The NRA made a sugestion today that was the same thing I have been saying. They said that every school in america should have at least one armed police officer in the building at all times kids are there. Half the responses I have heard today are either ridiculing that idea or saying that it would scare them to have a police officer there. I just saw a comment from a school superintendent that said that would be a terible idea because it would just make the children less safe with 2 peolple shooting at each other. The kids could get caught in the crossfire. WTF, I will say it again WTF WTF WTF!!!!!!! Would they rather have a bunch of kids shot point blank with no one trying to stop them or take the chance that a few might get shot while an officer was trying to take down the guy thats shooting the kids? Any child getting hurt or killed is one to many, absolutly, but i would much rather know that there was someone at the school who could and would shoot to kill if a crazy person was there to hurt my kids than to have them there like sheep in a pen. I had to go get a new SS card a while back. I was shocked that there were 2 armed police officers at the SS office. Who the hell robs the SS office or stroms in there to kill the 3 workers behind the bullet proof glass. Seriously, there were 2 officers there to protect 3 SS workers that were behind bullet proof windows. And we can't put cops in schools? I guess there may be some mad people that get turned down for benefits that might make a scene, but seriously, do we need cops at the SS office but not in schools?

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

...guns of war. "Well regulated militia," has absolutely nothing to do with hunting. Self defense handguns and rifles are exactly what the 2nd Amendment sought to protect.

We all know firearms, I, by myself, could have ended the Revolutionary War with the weapons Lanza took into Sandy Hook Elementary.Throw in a Barret and their artillery , and navy would have been with in easy range. So do you think the "Founding Fathers" at the time had any grasp of weapons beyond the musket? If you really think that AR is going to protect you from our government, or foreign invaders you're delusional. Read a "funny" post by a writer who is compiling a history of drone warfare, "If you think an AR-15 can do some damage, you should see what a Hellfire equipped drone can do". Think about it.

[joedog]

I'm not sure but "I can't OWN a drone now either?"

But I am sure of this...."If war hits....I'm headed for the 'mess tent'!

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

We all know firearms, I, by myself, could have ended the Revolutionary War with the weapons Lanza took into Sandy Hook Elementary.

"Frankly", as long as we're talking time travel, I wish someone could go back and prevent your conception with a well-placed condom.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

We all know firearms, I, by myself, could have ended the Revolutionary War with the weapons Lanza took into Sandy Hook Elementary.Throw in a Barret and their artillery , and navy would have been with in easy range. So do you think the "Founding Fathers" at the time had any grasp of weapons beyond the musket? If you really think that AR is going to protect you from our government, or foreign invaders you're delusional. Read a "funny" post by a writer who is compiling a history of drone warfare, "If you think an AR-15 can do some damage, you should see what a Hellfire equipped drone can do". Think about it.

If all hell breaks loose and fighting erupts in the streets, that's exactly where it's going to happen, in the streets. The militia the Founding Fathers were referring to is a group of regular citizens taking up arms against....whoever, be it our government or another, most likely ours though I assume. That's neither here nor there though. I sure as hell hope my militia is armed with the very best weapons of war we can get our hands on.

"Hellfire equipped drones??" Seriously?? I'm not sure where all these hellfire equipped drones are going to come from or who will be controlling them but I think they will be the least of our worries.

[pro reel]

This issue is just as polarizing as the election. Most of us have firm beliefs on one side or the other and no discusion here is going to change anyones opinions. If we were actually addressing the root issue of the increased violence in our society, we would be talking about a different part of the bill of rights. Free speech. Just imagine how much fighting there would be if we actually tried to do something that might really save lives over the long term. Steep restrictions on hollywood for starters. No violence of any type allowed to be depicted in any movie or television show. All forms of games and computer programs must be violence free. All sporting events must be played in a violence free way with steep penalties for any occurances of violence. All news stations required to have permision from an independent comittee before they report anything, no more false reporting and glorification of these events. Even is something happens, why does the whole world need to hear about it? If it saves even one life by not putting the idea in the mind of the next copycat waiting in line, wouldn't it be worth it? I mean come on folks, this is the same stuff they say we should accept with guns, and guns are not the root of the problem. People growing up in a violent world are the root of the problem. If Adam Lanza had never been exposed to any violence in his life, if the only TV he ever saw was mickey mouse shows and fields of butterflies, then how would he have even gotten the idea in his head to do what he did? Wouldn't that be worth giving up all of our freedoms for? hmmmmm?

[WTL]

Yall still talking about politics?


There is a legal issue here; what are the limits of the 2nd amendment, and does that constrain our power to act.

There is a policy issue here; if we had free reign to write the laws to ban what we wanted to ban, how effective would it be in advancing domestic peace?



We have to keep both these questions in mind. The Constitution is the law, it sets an outermost boundary which we cannot ignore.

But while everyone is pushing for action, we must also keep in mind that the action we do pursue must be effective. We shouldn't be doing this just to "do something" or just to salve our own conscience. CAN we remove the guns already in our midst? Will people just skirt around the law, or openly ignore it? Will this stop criminals from being able to get the specific arms we ban?

Dogmatic, I am not going to bore you with what my answers are. Yall can probably guess. But I will say, you should consider that there are limits to the law. You just can't eliminate all bad from the world by decreeing that it should be vanquished. Public policy is a difficult field primarily because people think it is easy.

[Tavery5]

I don't think that putting armed guards in schools is going to help much. Schools are too big for an individual or even a couple of guards to secure. A crazy gets into just one classroom and you end up with the same situation. What happens when one of the paid guards goes nuts and shoots up a bunch of kids, hire guards to watch the guards? It's a band-aid at best and not a real solution.
What would happen in the event of a bomb threat or fire, children would be forced to evacuate the building in groups leaving them exposed to anyone who wanted to harm them.
Violence has always been, and will always be, Cain killed Abel because he was jealous, not because of video games, or sporting events. I believe he smashed his head with a rock or club. Probably would have just shot him if a gun was available.

[lilmule]

It is because of the way the media played it armed police officer,what police officers are not(rent a cop maybe)?
Tn has one officer assigned to each school he issues tickets,meets anyone coming in off hrs.
When wva started the lock down schools thought was weird,seems was ahead of times,or ahead of many.Regardless if individual classrooms are locked buzzed in and out entrances should be,with bp glass.No one enters or leaves without being buzzed in or out.Hooked to the bell system will auto unlock on alarm.
Think about it who needs to get in school once its in session no one other than a parent who has an apt or is expected.
So who is at fault , really lies in no control of area which could easily be avoided at some expense key word expense not the fault of officials for not installing using money for other things,is it.
Repeat all police are generally armed not like placing armed guards in area any more than a foot patrolman is a armed guard hes a law enforcement officer who has a gun to inforce it.

[Tavery5]

Originally Posted by lilmule

It is because of the way the media played it armed police officer,what police officers are not(rent a cop maybe)?
Tn has one officer assigned to each school he issues tickets,meets anyone coming in off hrs.
When wva started the lock down schools thought was weird,seems was ahead of times,or ahead of many.Regardless if individual classrooms are locked buzzed in and out entrances should be,with bp glass.No one enters or leaves without being buzzed in or out.Hooked to the bell system will auto unlock on alarm.
Think about it who needs to get in school once its in session no one other than a parent who has an apt or is expected.
So who is at fault , really lies in no control of area which could easily be avoided at some expense key word expense not the fault of officials for not installing using money for other things,is it.
Repeat all police are generally armed not like placing armed guards in area any more than a foot patrolman is a armed guard hes a law enforcement officer who has a gun to inforce it.

Sounds like it would be easier to just throw all the criminals out of prison, and force the children to attend school there.

[joedog]

Ok, this is what we do in our area.

All schools have DIRECT contact with the police department.
Just like an officer on the 'beat'.
Kind of like a 'Bat Phone' setup.

No guns in the schools and extreme response time.

Ya someone can get in but no matter what system you create...someone WILL find a way to get around it.
But hey, it's a good start.

I don't know where you live but every year at least ONE gun is confiscated from a school around here.
Usually student brought and more frequently than not...unloaded. But a guns a gun...JAIL TIME in Wisconsin...NO EXCEPTIONS!

Any one hear of a guy named...Timothy McVeigh ...NINETEEN CHILDREN...NO GUN... DAYCARE!

[lilmule]

I agree having a complete lockdown school sounds like a prison,one of the reasons I disliked it in w.va,but having entrance and exit on it would reduce visits from unwanted adults.The average business in or around or within 200 miles of nyc you get buzzed in.
As for Timothy agree fertilzer and box vans are not harder to get.
No matter how or what some will slip thru,the world has nuts,but media coverage is not helping,one of the reasons they do it,live on in Infamy.
The media also suggests police are armed guards,all police are armed unless the extremists have their way like english bobbies.

[pro reel]

The schools my kids went to had officers there all the time. My kids went to school at a suburb town close to Wichita. Thats towns officers had offices in and close to all of the schools there. At any given time you could expect a cop to be around somewhere. Those same schools also had electronic doors for the last 20 years. Unless the shool was open for conferences or something, then anyone had to be buzzed in, unless someone from the inside opened a door for you. Unless it's not true, I heard that Sandy Hook had the same system of doors but that he broke in. Who knows, most of what was reported was false. Anyway, my kids and my wife and I never felt like the schools were prisons and it was actually one of the things that made us feel better about having the kids in the school district. The kids were taught at a young age that police officers were there to help them if needed and were not to be feared. To them he was just another part of school life and didn't bother them a bit.
Would this stop all possible school shootings, NO, but isn't the standard we are supposed to go by the same thing they always say about gun control " if it saves even one life it was worth it"
As for the posibility that a police officer could snap and be the next guy to shoot a bunch of kids. I suppose, but couldn't they do that now. You can't go very many places where you won't see a few cops around, especialy at big events. That doesn't seem to make anyone that I know scared to be at those events, so why would it scare them for an officer to be at the school. Maybe it will happen some day, but I have not yet heard of a cop snapping and being the one that gunned down a bunch of people.
It seems to me that the core reason many would be against this is that they may see it as admiting defeat or admiting that the world is not a safe place and schools are no exception.

[Tavery5]

Dude all you have to do is type "Police officer kills" in a search engine and you will get pages of information on Police officers flipping out and killing their wifes, family members and themselves. If the standard is to just save 1 child, then home school them, and mission accomplished. Putting a police officer in a school is not going to help anything, how many Presidents have been killed or injured at the hands of a gunman, even though they are surrounded by security.

So far most of the conversation has been dominated by discussion about how to keep our children safe at school. What about at the Grocery store, Mall, Wal-Mart, restaraunt etc. etc. etc. The world is not a safe place, I suggest you get yourself a firearm and learn how to use it, it's you best chance to keep your family safe.

[lilmule]

The issue many overlook is because of this excuse they will attempt to make you having a firearm harder to get.
I have a ccw permit even that doesnt guarantee no harm will come to me or mine,but less chance.Some restaraunts or stores post no guns allowed signs,I dont frequent them.
No police are not immune but when they do go off the deep end generally isnt against john q public.And other ccw may go off as well,nothing is written in stone but care must be taken.
Yes agree become efficient with a firearm,have one legally safely secured in home and on person-not all however would agree.

[bcklash]

I live 10 min from where the Va. Tech shootings happened. Tech has lost millions in court battles because people say they could have prevented some or all of the deaths. What a load of crap, since that terrible day there has been about 4 more murders and Campus police officer shot and killed. Those nut jobs will find a way. Like Tavs said, get a gun and protect you and yours.