e-10..thoughts? ideas? best guess??

[zooker]

lets face it in a few years unleaded is going to be gone.we all will forced due to govt regs to burn this bull sh!t in our outboard moters..

if this sh!t don't boost marina visits nothing else will..

of course the standard practice everyone seems to agree on is the use of a 10 micron water seperator and sta-bil ethonal treatment..i use this set up plus seafoam in my yamaha..

i have run e-10 in my boat. let me tell ya i don't like it at ALL. i recently did a side by side running of the stuff with regular unleaded.in my tweaked 50 horse yamaha 2 stroke carb moter swinging a customized 10 3/8 x 14ish stainless steel prop...i started with excatly 6 gallon of fuel each time.weather was mid 50's overcast both days. i did the same milk run on a local lake.-mid week-

hooking up a portable tach and my gps unit i went out and fished..

with unleaded running at wot 5800 rpm i hit 41.6mph gps. and burned just a hair under 3 gallon.

the e-10 had a boggy hole shot-every time-wot at 5600 rpm at 39.8 mph gps.the moter burned nearly 4 GALLON of fuel in the 15.7 mile run..

i did however un hook the fuel line from the moter and run it empty of corn upon loading the boat..dodging a problem that i figure is going to haunt alot of guys..

since i do have a 6 gallon portable tank i just removed the tank and emptied it. -put in the truck-

this all happened afore i talked to 1fastlaser.who was pitchin a fit about e-10...you aint alone...

this is my thought-i tend to agree with laser-only put as much e-10 in the tank as you will burn in a single day.since e-10 draws water like a sponge any lenth of "sit" time adds to the water.this is also important if you live in the high humidity areas of the south..

i highly dout the big three-omc,yamaha,merc- will figure out the tuning problems assoated with e-10. in time to be of really any use to us before we fall under the cloud of corn fuel...
if the proper tuning does appear put money on it coming from susuki outboards...

zooker

[Bill M]

It cost me money on carb repairs big time...use the Star-Tron additive and I have been good to go since.I have a 1995 115 Mariner.

been buyin the 95oct race fuel at the drag strip no ethanol and haven't had a problem yet

[Bender]

After recently moving to this area I had to search for gas. The closest station is Mobil and has only e10. I found another station right downtown that was not easy to get the trailer into and didn't see any e10 labels. After putting about 25 gallons into the boat I noticed a little blue sticker on the blue pump that was hidden under where the nozzle hangs up that said e10. It looks like that is all I can get around here.
Where do you get that Star Tron?

[zooker]

Originally Posted by kg5388

been buyin the 95oct race fuel at the drag strip no ethanol and haven't had a problem yet

can't run high oct juice in factory tuned yamahas..like both bender and i have..

bender
it'll burn it ok just don't let it sit in the tank..shipon it out.. remember hammer carbs rebuild kits cost 3 TIMES what omc and merc do...read that $200-per carb-


zooker

[nofearengineer]

Why can't your Yammies handle high test? I've never heard of that before. I always thought putting gas of too high an octane rating was a waste of money, because you don't get the benefit from it without the higher compression, but never knew of any damage or bad performance from it. Does it flip the computer out or something?

[zooker]

nofear
yamahas are all factory tuned to 83/84 octane commonly found in japan and china. the carbs are non adjustable and since they have no adjustable/advance timing the result is carbon build up, alot of it..

since we don't get "rice test" here we have to use either ring free-yamaha product- or seafoam. to keep the carbs clean and moters running..

zooker

a guy at the lake runs 95oct in his yamaha but he cuts it with 87oct e-10 from the gas station thats where I got the ideal from
15 gallon tank and he runs 10 gallon 95oct and 5 gallon 87 e-10 with seafoam added.

He's dedicated every weekend and several afternoons a week as his boss sneaks to play golf and he forwards the phone to his cell and hits the lake and no problems yet

does he need to cut it more or drop the 95 all together?

[zooker]

unless the moter has been to hydrotech. he needs to drop the 95 oct.. it wont effect it right now but continued use will have carbon build up in the head..i seen 3 POUNDS of carbon scraped out of a moter using high test..

zooker

[nofearengineer]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Zook. I've only ever had to use higher octane fuel than the car needed in old, non-computer engines, which did just fine on it, though it was like I said, wasted money. Learn something every day.

[Culln5]

Thanks Zooker.... I'll be seeking out old fashioned gas, not the E10.

[Abbeysdad]

But wait... Just my opinion, but thought I'd share -

First, ethanol is just bad for at least three(3) reasons...
1) It requires more energy to produce (at least made from corn) than it yields.
2) Even at 10%, it's lower octane reduces gas mileage.
3) In boats, it presents the moisture problem, I'm told more so for some engines than for others.

But further, it would seem that a higher combustible fuel should produce [slightly] more power than a lower combustible fuel (even w/o a higher engine compression). This is exactly the reason that 10% ethanol reduces performance and gas mileage (and why nitro injection boosts speeds in dragsters).

I'm also questioning why a slightly higher octane gasoline would produce more carbon...seems to me the TCW-3 oil in a 2-stroke engine is gonna cause way more carbon than any gas octane.

I always thought that engines were tuned to produce optimum results with a MINIMUM octane rated gas. So if an engine is tuned with 87 octane, it should run fine with 89 or higher. Worst case, one would think the engine might idle higher....but I don't seem to see this in my car when I run 89...(have never tried higher).

I may be lucky (or just kidding myself), but I have a Gulf station not far from home (I live in the country, miles from any big city) that has no indicators on the pumps that ethanol is in the blend. I have been using 89 octane in my 90 HP (oil injected) mercury OB and knock wood, it runs great.

[nofearengineer]

Abbeysdad,

I found out that it's not really the gas's fault. When it has a higher octane, the oxygen sensor in computerized vehicles can see the fuel charge as being too lean, and so it ups the fuel/air ratio trying to fix it...which is where the carbon comes from. Older, purely carbureted engines with no such equipment do indeed run just fine on higher test.

Ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline. It has less btus of energy in it than gasoline per pound, but you can compress it much more, with the higher octane. I have seen 16:1 alcohol burning engines that will flat out scream.

[zooker]

Originally Posted by Abbeysdad

I always thought that engines were tuned to produce optimum results with a MINIMUM octane rated gas. So if an engine is tuned with 87 octane, it should run fine with 89 or higher. Worst case, one would think the engine might idle higher....but I don't seem to see this in my car when I run 89...(have never tried higher).

abby'sdad
re-read my post.

factory tuned yamahas moters are tuned for 83/84 oct unleaded NOT 87 oct..this means you can not advance the timing short of replacing the firing control unit-a $1200 part-welcome to the "modern era" of outboarding huh??


i have worked on alot of old outboards. some of the old "lead" era moters i swear you could tune them to run on bacon grease..


zooker

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by zooker

i have worked on alot of old outboards. some of the old "lead" era moters i swear you could tune them to run on bacon grease..


zooker

Hahah....reminds me of the "Mythbusters" where they were building rockets powered by....salami. ROFL.

[Abbeysdad]

Originally Posted by zooker

abby'sdad
re-read my post. factory tuned yamahas moters are tuned for 83/84 oct unleaded NOT 87 oct..this means you can not advance the timing short of replacing the firing control unit-a $1200 part-welcome to the "modern era" of outboarding huh??

Oh...so you are saying that you need cleaner additive using regular unleaded 87 octane - so your problem with the 10% ethanol is just the poorer performance as compared to regular unleaded w/o the ethanol - yes?

You'd think that Yamaha was big enough to market a different engine in the US where rice wine fuel is not available.

NoFear - Ethanol is 34% lower in energy per unit volume than gasoline. That doesn't suggest a higher octane rating and explains why mileage and performance is lower with E10. It's true that high compression ratio ethanol only engines can deliver performance equal to or greater than gasoline engines, however, they are 20-30% LESS fuel efficient, or put simply, you'd need 20-30% more fuel to get the same distance down the road as a gasoline engine.

http://www.mbcboats.com/perfbull/O2006-009.pdf

[nofearengineer]

Abbey...yes, ethanol has less btus per pound. But btus have nothing to do with octane. Ethanol racing fuel is usually around 113. However, E-10 is usually lower than 87 after it sits in the tank a couple of days.

And trust me...I'm with you on all of the negatives of ethanol. It is an abolute farce on all accounts to try to turn it into our standard fuel in this country. I've been arguing that with greenies for years now. I'm almost to the point where I don't bother anymore. They never listen.

[Abbeysdad]

Okay, I'll go one step further...the myth is that ethanol is a renewable resource...but the 'green' folks are missing something. Anyone that gardens or farms knows that corn is a heavy feeder and NpK doesn't fall outta the sky...it's coming from petro-chemical fertilizer - yep, fossil fuel fertilizer to grow corn to make less efficient ethanol fuel (not to mention the huge amounts of energy required at the plant to make it happen) - doh.

Unfortunately there is one certainty though....fossil fuel can't last forever.

Personally (and what do I know) I think it's more likely that hydrogen fuel cells are a more likely replacement than ethanol, electric or hybrids... But I guess we need a few more energy crisis's before we get it.

Remember the one in 1979? We've had 30 years to develop and transition to alternate fuels ... it only took us the 10 years in the 60's to develop all new technologies to get to the moon!!

[end rant]

lol

[nofearengineer]

Hydrogen fuel cells are not an energy source. If I had a nickel for every time I've tried in vain to explain this to greenie idiots... . Hydrogen fuel cells are more analagous to your gas tank than the gas that goes into it. The energy to charge them still has to come from somewhere. Coal-powered power plants, anyone? And you can bet your last dollar that the people screaming for hydrogen fuel cells now will be the same people screaming bloody murder about all of the extra power lines in the air it would take to carry all of the increased electrical load so people can charge up their cars every night.

[zooker]

btw nofear e-10 also makes less back pressure in car mufflers. ie flowmaster's systems will lose that sound...

zooker

[Abbeysdad]

Hydrogen fuel cells are not an energy source.

Thanks for the update - lol
If you don't currently refine oil into gasoline in your garage, why would you presume to create hydrogen there?

Fossil fuel will run out, perhaps even in our lifetime.

The question is what is the alternative? It will likely be some time before Mr. Fusion can generate the ten gigawatts required to blast your DeLorean back to the future.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by Abbeysdad

Thanks for the update - lol
If you don't currently refine oil into gasoline in your garage, why would you presume to create hydrogen there?

Fossil fuel will run out, perhaps even in our lifetime.

The question is what is the alternative? It will likely be some time before Mr. Fusion can generate the ten gigawatts required to blast your DeLorean back to the future.

Well, I didn't mean you'd be doing the hydrogen generation in your garage haha. I was more meaning electric cars. The same crowd who thinks hydrogen fuel cells are some magic bullet are usually the ones who love electric cars too.

Oddly enough, the problems with storing hydrogen are so great, that it might actually be better to create the hydrogen at home than to distribute it by old-fashioned gas stations. Hydrogen is such a small molecule that in liquid form, it leaks right through solid steel, and in gaseous form, you can't store enough of it to get anything done; it has very, very low btus per pound compared to gasoline. You end up having to pressurize it, which basically turns your car into a rolling bomb LOL. Regardless, electrolysis takes electricity, which has to be generated somewhere....again by burning something. Most well-intentioned greenies just don't understand that.

You hit the nail on the head though...for all intents and purposes, if you don't want to go nuclear, there is no substitute for good old fashioned burning something to generate energy.

[1FASTLASER]

Everything zook has pointed out is VERY true. One thing I wanna add is so you can understand the higher octane WITHOUT compression being a not so good thing. Octane burns at different rates.......87 octane burns at a higher BTU than does 89...91 or 93 therefore the cooler burn of high octane fuel in a engine that is not packing the fuel will reslut in unburned fuel which carbons the motor up. Now ifn ya start packing the fuel..ie......cut the heads or up the dome on the piston you condense the fuel where you can benefit from the high compression. Get the picture now.

[Abbeysdad]

I guess I just ASSumed that higher octane gas delivered more energy (explosive power) than lower octanes. That's kinda true, but only in higher compression engines and actually higher octanes deliver less performance in engines designed for lower octanes. Thanks for the 'limb up' on the knowledge tree.

[1FASTLASER]

Not a problem Abby. For the longest time I was of the same crowd.........until I was actually SHOWN the difference. Even though I aint from Missouri...lived there for along time I did keep ahold of one of there traditions"You got to SHOW ME"