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Old 07-06-09, 04:22 PM   #26
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And this concludes our lesson for the day....

Ummmm, two questions if I may:

1) Who is about to surpass Bush on the biggest spending deficit in American history?

2) On what basis do the facts state that other countries hate the U.S.? I have lived all over the world and it's a mixed bag, many countries are more concerned about their own governement and not the U.S.
I know I'd find it, the south, red!
Obama has not done it yet! Bush put people out of work, not Obama!
Read, all of the World hates America, But Bush was a bully, Agree with me, or I'll bomb your ***!
The whole world hates America, READ!
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Old 07-06-09, 04:25 PM   #27
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I know I'd find it, the south, red!
Obama has not done it yet! Bush put people out of work, not Obama!
Read, all of the World hates America, But Bush was a bully, Agree with me, or I'll bomb your ***!
The whole world hates America, READ!
I was watching the currently active users, so I was waiting for you to finish replying. I cant believe it took you so long to write...that^^^^
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Old 07-06-09, 04:30 PM   #28
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I'm not saying you're an idiot, just don't tell someone to go read a book when it is blatantly obvious that you are not an avid reader. This is not always true, but typically someone who reads a lot has a much higher proficiency in grammar and spelling.

I have read you're posts and you have some interesting points. I am very much open minded even if my beliefs tend to lean a bit more 'right'. More recently I have made my own determination that the federal government of the U.S. is too big and too removed of the people. I also believe that if there is truly hope of fixing our country it can only begin at a local level. We must start micro-managing our local economies and move forward one building block at a time.
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Old 07-06-09, 04:32 PM   #29
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I'm not saying you're an idiot, just don't tell someone to go read a book when it is blatantly obvious that you are not an avid reader. This is not always true, but typically someone who reads a lot has a much higher proficiency in grammar and spelling.

I have read you're posts and you have some interesting points. I am very much open minded even if my beliefs tend to lean a bit more 'right'. More recently I have made my own determination that the federal government of the U.S. is too big and too removed of the people. I also believe that if there is truly hope of fixing our country it can only begin at a local level. We must start micro-managing our local economies and move forward one building block at a time.
Here, here!

Good post.

I think we should start a separate political thread in which the names of all political candidates are banned. Just talk policy. What YOU believe. What matters to YOU.

I think we would get farther.
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Old 07-06-09, 04:33 PM   #30
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I know I'd find it, the south, red!
Obama has not done it yet! Bush put people out of work, not Obama!
Read, all of the World hates America, But Bush was a bully, Agree with me, or I'll bomb your ***!
The whole world hates America, READ!
I'm so far removed from the south that it makes this statement laughable!
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Old 07-06-09, 04:33 PM   #31
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I know I'd find it, the south, red!
Obama has not done it yet! Bush put people out of work, not Obama!
Read, all of the World hates America, But Bush was a bully, Agree with me, or I'll bomb your ***!
The whole world hates America, READ!

WNY,
President Obama will make up for lost time in the unemployment numbers if the cap and trade bill passes the Senate. By the way, you never responded to my earlier post. Have you even heard of the cap and trade bill?
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Old 07-06-09, 04:44 PM   #32
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Just because I read a book on Germany, France, Belgium, Switzerland, Italy, England, Ireland or even Austria does not mean that I have experienced the people of those places. ( I have ) I have lived in all these places among others and have experienced the everyday news, politics and people and can tell you first hand that the majority of everyday folks have a common respect for "we" as the people of the U.S. and our FREEDOM. Personally I believe that you will never be able to please everyone all the time and as Americans we find it easier to ridicule ourselves. Or perhaps as many past girlfriends have said "it's me not you"...HAHAHA
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Old 07-06-09, 05:17 PM   #33
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I think that the greatest thing we can hope for is a passion about our government. It is one of the rights that we are guaranteed. My issue it that a rush to judgment, assumptions, and even name-calling, are often mistaken for that same needed passion.
Elections are almost always decided by the current mood of Americans. If our stomachs are full, our job (assuming we have one) doesn’t suck, and we feel comfortable about the future of our children, then we have no reason for change. When we are scared, we will rush to anything in hope of a better life. One who will bring us back into the better days or at least someone not as bad as the last guy. (The Jimmy Carter syndrome)

No one party or person got us into this mess and no one individual will get us out. I personally blame both the left and the right for our current situation. I hope to hell that Obama becomes the greatest president we have ever seen. It is the same hope I had for Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, (I was alive for the Carter and Ford years, but was to busy wanting to be Steve Austin the 6 million dollar man to care)

I will end by saying, please be passionate about your beliefs just not at the cost of others.
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Old 07-06-09, 07:26 PM   #34
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WTL,

While I'm not so sure Obama is more intelligent than Palin...I am certain he's more educated, and he was certainly groomed for national politics longer than 3 weeks like Palin. Now that can often make you come across as more intelligent, given the level of discourse. I.e, an uneducated person can't really speak intelligently on the matters at hand.

That being said, some of the smartest people, and greatest leaders in history were uneducated, at least in the academic sense. Great leaders are often revealed only by their rise to a challenge, not by how prepared they were for it. Remember, I'm not making an endorsement of Palin here...I wish we had a great candidate to oppose Obama, but we don't. In my opinion, we have some people better suited for the Presidency than Obama, but nobody charismatic enough to get the votes. Yet.

On the matter of "family values", yes, I agree it is a hackneyed old tactic, kind of like outrunning explosions in a Michael Bay movie. I'm not asking for legislation along those lines...but it lets me know what kind of person the candidate is, and helps predict which way they would lean on an issue. Don't fall into the trap of equating anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage attitude as some religious fundamentalist exclusive. Those points of view are perfectly reachable without relying upon our nation's links to its Judeo-Christian roots. Regardless, a person's motives for voting a certain way are unassailable, whether his vote is constituional is all that matters (or should be).
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Old 07-06-09, 07:42 PM   #35
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I think Palin went three or four weeks out of the public eye and got bummed

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Old 07-06-09, 07:48 PM   #36
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I do think Obama is more intelligent, but its a moot point. We shouldn't use raw smarts as a gauge of who should lead.

In fact, I would say that there is a far greater type of intelligence - knowing that one does not know everything and being willing to delegate. I distrust men and women who want their hands on EVERYTHING.
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The people who are real proponents of family values don't have to center their campaigns around it.

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WTL,
Don't fall into the trap of equating anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage attitude as some religious fundamentalist exclusive. Those points of view are perfectly reachable without relying upon our nation's links to its Judeo-Christian roots. Regardless, a person's motives for voting a certain way are unassailable, whether his vote is constituional is all that matters (or should be).
I agree. I am unflinchingly pro-life without basing it on religious values. I think it is a clear issue of human rights. It is illogical to conclude the fetus is without rights.
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Old 07-06-09, 07:50 PM   #37
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Are you going after the religious vote, quoting Jesus like that? lol
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Old 07-06-09, 07:51 PM   #38
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I know, I know. But it a good quote. lol

*vote for me*
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Old 07-06-09, 07:56 PM   #39
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Just quickly, Palin is a lightweight, Obama has a light resume. Big difference., it is probably a little early to judge Obama's presidency, but he is clearly a deft maneuverer of the political machine.

You cannot judge the founding fathers on todays standards, the political system was vastly different. They ran the gamut from true revolutionaries to several who advocated a return to English rule until the last days of the Continental Congress.

WTL, this is probably not the forum for this and I'm not strongly opposed to you point and am completely unprepared to debate it, but,from an academic standpoint, I 'd like to hear your argument on why it is illogical to conclude a fetus is without rights...

GOD, I love this country!
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Old 07-06-09, 08:38 PM   #40
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I think that pro-choice or pro-life has played much to large a point in a lot of recent debates while larger issues go ignored . I guess when it comes down to it i would consider myself pro-choice just on the fact that some people should not be allowed to have children mean how many crack babies does the world really need to have. Or if a women was raped and ended up pregnant , in certain cases I can agree with that choice . On the matter of family values I think a lot of our degeneration as a society falls on the fact that most kids hardly spend time with their parents , they are raised more by daycare's and teachers and after school programs than an actual parental figure , and at that point it really does not matter what type of beliefs the parents have because they are not around their children long enough to impart them to them .


and WNY it just seems that as of late you are going out of your way to make yourself appear retarded just knock it off man .


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Old 07-06-09, 09:07 PM   #41
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When it comes to abortion, and many other things, the government needs to get out of our private lives. That's a choice that should be made by the mother and posibly the father if she is inclined to include him. That's between her, the baby, the father and God, and the mother's parents depending on her age. However, the government shouldn't pay for it either except for the possible case where the mother's life is in danger.

Politics in my opinion is really a moot point. The elections are bought and paid for long before they ever start campaigning. All those election booths a rallies are just feel good parties to give people the delusion that they've actually done something worthwhile.

As far as Obama and Pailin, they are both jokes. Bambam may have a better education, but when things are boiled down he's as big a goofball as she is.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:10 PM   #42
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Haha....I can tell 1/4 is really the eternal optimist!

On my bad days, I agree with him. I usually get over it and start giving a crap again though.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:12 PM   #43
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When it comes to abortion, and many other things, the government needs to get out of our private lives. That's a choice that should be made by the mother and posibly the father if she is inclined to include him. That's between her, the baby, the father and God, and the mother's parents depending on her age. However, the government shouldn't pay for it either except for the possible case where the mother's life is in danger.

Politics in my opinion is really a moot point. The elections are bought and paid for long before they ever start campaigning. All those election booths a rallies are just feel good parties to give people the delusion that they've actually done something worthwhile.

As far as Obama and Pailin, they are both jokes. Bambam may have a better education, but when things are boiled down he's as big a goofball as she is.

It all hinges on what a fetus is. If it is human, there is no way to say that government should stay out.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:20 PM   #44
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That's between her, the baby, the father and God, and the mother's parents depending on her age.
Well, someone's going to have to speak for the baby, since speech isn't learned until the first year.

The federal government replaced the father years ago with the welfare state.

The government has also done a bang-up job of chasing God out of the law.

I'm sure we can all agree that we had to listen to our parents for the first 18 years of our lives, and we're quite done with that.

That leaves the mother, and the obligatory "and her doctor" appendage.

My argument is, when women start creating life all on their own with no input from a male, and being completely responsible for said creation event and the upbringing of un-aborted youngsters, then they get to have all of the rights of determination of the fate of aformentioned youngsters.

Of course, this is an absurdity, but like a certain fat radio personality says, you sometimes have to be absurd to illustrate absurdity. A fetus having no rights is absurd.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:22 PM   #45
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It all hinges on what a fetus is. If it is human, there is no way to say that government should stay out.
So let's say it's decided that life begins at conception and it becomes illegal to abort a pregnancy. They'll find a way to do it, in a back alley or in the closet with the do it themself kit. Then you have two lives gone or more money invested in the girl's medical bills from repairing a botched abortion.

If you're going to say that the government is going into the buisness of protecting human lives then we need to start dismantling the military as well.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:26 PM   #46
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Well, someone's going to have to speak for the baby, since speech isn't learned until the first year.

The federal government replaced the father years ago with the welfare state.

The government has also done a bang-up job of chasing God out of the law.

I'm sure we can all agree that we had to listen to our parents for the first 18 years of our lives, and we're quite done with that.

That leaves the mother, and the obligatory "and her doctor" appendage.

My argument is, when women start creating life all on their own with no input from a male, and being completely responsible for said creation event and the upbringing of un-aborted youngsters, then they get to have all of the rights of determination of the fate of aformentioned youngsters.

Of course, this is an absurdity, but like a certain fat radio personality says, you sometimes have to be absurd to illustrate absurdity. A fetus having no rights is absurd.
I agree that life begins at conception. My point is they are going to do it anyway. Make it as safe and painless as medical knowledge can allow.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:52 PM   #47
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I would never argue the fact that life does not begin at conception and that in the right situation , that life should be placed higher than most other aspects of a mothers day to day life , but there are exceptions to every rule , and ultimately the final decision will end up resting with the expectant mother . We unfortunately live in a world where expected rights are trampled daily and there isn't much of an end in sight for the conditions that led to that. We constantly put people in charge that are unfit to do the job they have weather they have the experience or not and have relegated ourselves to be okay with mediocrity .


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Old 07-06-09, 09:52 PM   #48
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So let's say it's decided that life begins at conception and it becomes illegal to abort a pregnancy. They'll find a way to do it, in a back alley or in the closet with the do it themself kit. Then you have two lives gone or more money invested in the girl's medical bills from repairing a botched abortion.
Don' t begin to talk about money when life is involved. Life is priceless.

Saying that they would do it anyway does not mean its right, nor is it an argument for its legality if it is truly wrong and against human rights. People murder anyway, but it still should be against the law. Just because it is difficult to enforce, doesn't mean that we should give up on an issue such as human life.

Also as a side note, RU 486 made coathangers obsolete. There will be almost no back alley abortions if it is made illegal.


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If you're going to say that the government is going into the buisness of protecting human lives then we need to start dismantling the military as well.
Government is in the business of creating law. The laws are created to re-enforce patterns of behavior or protect personal rights. The law against murder protects a human right.

Peacetime laws do not exist in war between combatants. War is fought beyond the scope of normal law. So your example does not work.
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Old 07-06-09, 10:14 PM   #49
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Don' t begin to talk about money when life is involved. Life is priceless.

Saying that they would do it anyway does not mean its right, nor is it an argument for its legality if it is truly wrong and against human rights. People murder anyway, but it still should be against the law. Just because it is difficult to enforce, doesn't mean that we should give up on an issue such as human life.

Also as a side note, RU 486 made coathangers obsolete. There will be almost no back alley abortions if it is made illegal.




Government is in the business of creating law. The laws are created to re-enforce patterns of behavior or protect personal rights. The law against murder protects a human right.

Peacetime laws do not exist in war between combatants. War is fought beyond the scope of normal law. So your example does not work.
At least until it can be scientificly proven exactly when life begins, it's still a grey area as to if it's murder or not, (Legally that is). And killing is still killing no matter what scope it is in.

I have no clue what RU 486 is. lol
What makes you think every woman/girl with an unwanted pregnancy is going to know about it or how to get it?
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Old 07-06-09, 10:15 PM   #50
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Government is in the business of creating law. The laws are created to re-enforce patterns of behavior or protect personal rights. The law against murder protects a human right.
Government is in the buisness of making money for themselves and giving themselves power, and little else.
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