It seems as though they don't care...

[BigBassin144]

Who doesn't care? and about what?

Rod companies, that's who. Many (not all) don't seem to care about build quality and craftsmanship. Keep in mind, this isn't a thread to bash one specific rod, just to express my overall disappointment with build quality and craftsmanship.

A recent trip to Cabela's and Gander Mtn got me thinking about this.

At Gander, I finally got my hands on a rod with micro guides. Unfortunately, it was only a Skeet Reese rod. Regardless, I picked it up off the rack and the first thing I did was sight down the blank to check for guide straightness. With the regular Skeet rods, it seemed about every other one had crooked guides. The micros on this rod were actually fairly straight. As my eye moved down the blank, and finally settled on the tip, I was astounded. The tip was nearly an 1/8 turn off!

The other micro rod they has wasn't nearly as straight, but at least the tip wasn't hugely off from the rest of them. This isn't the only problem with those skeet rods however. I've heard reports of the whole reel seat breaking loose!

Also while I was there, I saw a carrot stick. Upon closer inspection of the reel seat, or more specifically the hood and screwlock part, I found that the actual hood part that goes over the foot of the reel was broken off from the screwlock part that you'd turn to loosen or tighten it... I won't even mention all the breakage issues because that was more of an issue with design. Also, many people have had problems with the guides on carrot sticks, although e21 claims to have fixed that.

Now on to what I saw at Cabela's: I searched up and down the rod racks, looking to get my hands on one of those new G Loomis NRX rods. When I finally found them, I was fairly impressed with how they felt. BUT, there was some extra epoxy around the parts of the reel seat where the blank was exposed. Also, the guides (while wrapped straight) weren't wrapped very well. There were gaps in the thread on a lot of guides on almost all of the rods I looked at. I'm sorry, but if I'm going to pay $450-500 for a rod, I'd want it to be PERFECT!!

Even some of the rods I consider to be the "best" of the value rods (in the $100 range) have their issues.. But hey, they only cost $100. An example would be my Abu Garcia Vendetta. I think it is a great rod for the price, but if Abu is shooting for rods comparable to high end rods at cheaper prices, then I think they need to give a bit more. The guides are pretty straight on my Vendetta (although I'd like to have a couple more on it), but the wraps are far from perfect. Maybe I'm being too picky for a $80 rod, but from what I've heard the Veritas is fairly similar in build quality/craftsmanship to the vendetta. Although I still haven't gotten my hands on a Veritas yet...

Well, I guess my long winded rant has finally come to an end. Like I said in the beginning, I have nothing against any of these rods, and this isn't to put down any of them. I am hoping to spawn some good discussion on this topic though.

BB

[Old Hooker]

There was a time in this country when substandard workmanship wasn't tolerated. People expected a quality product at a decent price. Remember the addage "You get what you pay for"? Somewhere along the line we were taught to pay for whatever was put in front of us. We started exchanging quality for a cheap price. All of a sudden, everything we buy is made overseas by people that have never seen what they are making and couldn't afford to buy it if they did. American workers followed suit in an effort to compete. As a result, we are expected to pay whatever the price tag says no matter how crappy the product quality is. It used to be the exception to find a bad egg, now it's the rule.

I am a firm believer in voting with my wallet. I got away from my Harley Davidsons a few years ago because they got WAY too proud of a inferior product. It seems everything is going that way too. Don't be afraid to make your opinion heard by the retailer and the manufacturer. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[96ecss]

BB, I agree 100%. It's like that with almost everything these days. Have you ever seen B & R Outlaw Rods? http://www.broutlawrods.com/home.html My brother has one and it's great. $139.95 is a very good price. Everybody he lets use it, loves it. We compared them side by side with G Loomis rods at BPS and the B & R was hands down the better rod. I'll be getting one soon.

Dave

[walkeraviator]

I second the B&R recommendation. Their stuff is top notch and Made in the USA... If i were in that price range searching for rods, that is where my money would go, but they too are out of my budget.

[BigBassin144]

Yes, I have looked into B&R Outlaw Rods, and have even briefly fished with one. They are a pretty good rod for the money. However, earlier this spring, I was talking to one of the guys from the closest B&R Outlaw dealer (over an hour away) and he said they wouldn't be carrying them much longer due to a lot of issues with breakage around that time.

I really don't see myself buying many new rods that aren't Dobyns. Performance and craftsmanship are outstanding on these rods, and the company takes pride in a good product and cares about the customer.

BB

[bamabassman]

Ant, when we meet in the spring at the get together, I got 3 micro guide rods ol zook left me, I'll let you handle one if you want. these are GREAT.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by bamabassman

ant, when we meet in the spring at the get together, i got 3 micro guid rods ol zook left me, i'll let oyu handle one if oyu want. these are GREAT.

Thanks John, I'll definitely make a few casts with em!

Not to get off subject, but right now I'm torn between wanting a micro guide rod, or a rod that I actually need, lol.

BB

[bamabassman]

Ant.......the micro DOES cast further. Trust me.

[Jrob78]

Since I began building rods, the construction of off the shelf rods is always the first thing I notice. Most are pretty sloppy. It is even more obvious when the wraps are done in any color other than black. Black thread on a black/gray graphite blank hides everything. When you use a light color thread like the yellow that is on the Skeet rods, every single error shows up. A lot of companies use a paint or tape to do color trim bands, they aren't even thread.

Another place manufacturers cut costs is with the grips. Let me first say, I have no problem with EVA grips. I have built several rods with EVA, it is durable, comfortable and the black looks nice. That being said, it is about 1/4 the cost of cork.

Why do you think split grips are so popular now? They cost half the price of full grips. An EVA split grip costs about 1/8th of what a full cork grip costs.

Look at any cork grip on a new production rod, if you look closely at the nice, new, smooth cork you will see a lot of wood filler. Good cork that doesn't need filler is very expensive, that is just the way it is. At some point though, all that wood filler is going to come out. That's why your old rod grips are so full of open pits.

I got to handle a Loomis NRX in a store today. The rod felt great, it was really light, crisp and balanced. I was horrified to see how sloppily it was built though. The thread work was not good at all. I wasn't being hyper-critical either. It was sloppy, the epoxy was sloppy and upon close inspection, every single wrap had gaps between the thread and metallic inlays that crossed over the main wrap. The edges of the main wraps weren't straight where the tie off was pulled through. The cork split grips were full of filler. All the guides were straight but I didn't see any benefit whatsoever in using a combination of ceramic and Recoil guides. (That's another topic for another day.) It just didn't look like a rod worthy of $475 to me.

Building a fishing rod is a time consuming thing that has to be done by hand. Most of the imperfections we are talking about don't effect performance at all. Even slightly crooked guides shouldn't effect casting much, if any. I do believe that if you are paying top dollar for a rod you should get something that wasn't haphazardly thrown together. If anyone is considering shelling out $350+ for a rod, my advice would be to consider going the custom route.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

...And all those that agreed, said amen JRob. It is disgusting as all of you have pointed out. You don't get what you pay for anymore. In today's standards you are considered sub-par if you reel is under a benny. Some tend to look on price, rather than quality. The only reason they outprice this stuff is because we buy it though. Who would have thought a coke would be over a $1.50, 15 years ago. And it keeps going up because we keep buying it. They are just looking for the breaking point to see how far they can push. Just think 15 years from now, a coke will be 4 bucks, and the G. Loomis Sq root 3051 will be a grand. And people will still be paying for it.

[rrw4258]

Well, first off this was a great post to start. It is great to hear everyone's opinion and thoughts.

But, I think alot of people are thinking way too much of this. I don't even look at guides or the wraps on a rod anymore, when buying rods. It doesn't make a difference if the guide wraps have some gaps in them. I have plenty of higher end rods and I don't care if the guides are off just a hair, or the wraps aren't perfect, and I know some of my rod guides are off a little bit. I fish my equipment hard, every day, and I don't need to be worrying about the apperacne of my rod and how it was built.

Now by all means, I see where you guys are coming from and I would like a quality rod for the money but it won't keep me from buying a rod if it is comfortable in my hands.


Ryan

[96ecss]

Originally Posted by BigBassin144

Yes, I have looked into B&R Outlaw Rods, and have even briefly fished with one. They are a pretty good rod for the money. However, earlier this spring, I was talking to one of the guys from the closest B&R Outlaw dealer (over an hour away) and he said they wouldn't be carrying them much longer due to a lot of issues with breakage around that time.

I really don't see myself buying many new rods that aren't Dobyns. Performance and craftsmanship are outstanding on these rods, and the company takes pride in a good product and cares about the customer.

BB

That's interesting about the B & R's breaking. We met the owner of the company at an outdoor show when my brother bought his and he told us if we ever had a problem to just send it back for a replacement.

When they told you they had breakage issues, did they say anything about getting replacements? I know it's a pain to have to send a rod back, but I'm curious to see how well they stand behind their products.

Dave

[doc]

Originally Posted by 96ecss

That's interesting about the B & R's breaking. We met the owner of the company at an outdoor show when my brother bought his and he told us if we ever had a problem to just send it back for a replacement.

When they told you they had breakage issues, did they say anything about getting replacements? I know it's a pain to have to send a rod back, but I'm curious to see how well they stand behind their products.

Dave

I had a b&r medium action that I used for topwater, One day while fishing my local lake, I tied on a spook made a cast, and the rod broke about halfway down. The manufacturer will replace the rod for $50, but it was only $100 brand new, and since I did not abuse the rod i'm scared to replace it, only to have it break again while casting.

[96ecss]

Originally Posted by doc

I had a b&r medium action that I used for topwater, One day while fishing my local lake, I tied on a spook made a cast, and the rod broke about halfway down. The manufacturer will replace the rod for $50, but it was only $100 brand new, and since I did not abuse the rod i'm scared to replace it, only to have it break again while casting.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the $50 replacement fee. I'm having second thoughts about getting one now.

Dave

[BigBassin144]

B&R features and Expeditor Warranty Program. Where if you break the rod, no matter the cause, they'll replace for a set fee. You could take the rod to the owner of the company, break it across your knee, and they'll replace it for the fee.

A number of large companies feature a warranty similar to this. G Loomis is probably the most well known example. Although they recently changed how theirs works due to people abusing it; breaking rods on purpose to get new ones.

The Expeditor warranty isn't something I'd shy away from. In fact, Dobyns rods offers a this in addition to their warranty. If you need the rod quickly, or don't want to send it in and have it appraised for warranty purposed, you can take it to any participating Dobyns dealer and get a new one for $60.

But if you want a good warranty without an expeditor fee, Shimano's Limited Lifetime Warranty is hard to beat.

As per the original topic, you guys make some good points. If you fish your gear hard, and very often, or if you just don't care, it probably doesn't make a difference how well constructed the rod is, as long as it works. And most craftsmanship issues such as straight guides, neat wraps, etc shouldn't effect the performance of the rod.

BB

[WaffleJaw]

You can go into different shops and pick up the same rods that are almost flawless in construction...Its all dependent on who built them...Maybe one guy was having a sheety day and decided not to care about build quality on 20-30 rods..And the guy next to him was the having the best day and his rods came out super clean/straight.

Ive seen some really shotty work on high end rods...But then Ive seen some really nice work on the same models...It just depends on whos doing the construction at the warehouse...These guys are spitting out a rods every 3-4 hours...Thats just how it is.

If you find a model you like..Dig around,You'll find someone who built it right!

[Bob Smith]

I have seen just about everything you guys mentioned at one time or another. Fortunately, one of my fishing buddies just happens to be a real nice custom rod builder and really gets off on building my rods. My nickname is Porko, and he has named my rods the Porko series. Almost all are made of Rainshadow Blanks, with some high end Mudhole blanks. I have no complaints. He just built me a cranking stick with the micro-guides and I love it!! I put the Revo STX on it and talk about a sweet combo! He made one for himself and put the Shimano Core on it and the whole things weighs less than 11 oz.
He enabled me to re-rod without going to the over the counter rods and he did it for a fraction of the cost. I would suggest you look around in your area for a similar deal and DO NOT BE AFRAID of the Rainshadow or Mudhole blanks, I can assure you they are the real deal and you won't be dissapointed!

[bassboogieman]

Finding pride in workmanship is very difficult these days and not just in fishing rods. It's a shame I dumped a lot of $$$ in off-the-rack rods last winter - I know I would have been much happier with a locker full of NELSON custom built rods.
If only I had known.....................

[DVT Mike]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

Since I began building rods, the construction of off the shelf rods is always the first thing I notice. Most are pretty sloppy. It is even more obvious when the wraps are done in any color other than black. Black thread on a black/gray graphite blank hides everything. When you use a light color thread like the yellow that is on the Skeet rods, every single error shows up. A lot of companies use a paint or tape to do color trim bands, they aren't even thread.

Another place manufacturers cut costs is with the grips. Let me first say, I have no problem with EVA grips. I have built several rods with EVA, it is durable, comfortable and the black looks nice. That being said, it is about 1/4 the cost of cork.

Why do you think split grips are so popular now? They cost half the price of full grips. An EVA split grip costs about 1/8th of what a full cork grip costs.

Look at any cork grip on a new production rod, if you look closely at the nice, new, smooth cork you will see a lot of wood filler. Good cork that doesn't need filler is very expensive, that is just the way it is. At some point though, all that wood filler is going to come out. That's why your old rod grips are so full of open pits.

I got to handle a Loomis NRX in a store today. The rod felt great, it was really light, crisp and balanced. I was horrified to see how sloppily it was built though. The thread work was not good at all. I wasn't being hyper-critical either. It was sloppy, the epoxy was sloppy and upon close inspection, every single wrap had gaps between the thread and metallic inlays that crossed over the main wrap. The edges of the main wraps weren't straight where the tie off was pulled through. The cork split grips were full of filler. All the guides were straight but I didn't see any benefit whatsoever in using a combination of ceramic and Recoil guides. (That's another topic for another day.) It just didn't look like a rod worthy of $475 to me.

...............x2

[Dave63]

If I paid Loomis prices and had ANY defect whatsoever, they would swear that I had rabies from all the foam coming out of my mouth! That is SO not acceptable, it's crazy. Ironically, I have seen very few issues with my "cheaper" rods. Go figure.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

I have seen just about everything you guys mentioned at one time or another. Fortunately, one of my fishing buddies just happens to be a real nice custom rod builder and really gets off on building my rods. My nickname is Porko, and he has named my rods the Porko series. Almost all are made of Rainshadow Blanks, with some high end Mudhole blanks. I have no complaints. He just built me a cranking stick with the micro-guides and I love it!! I put the Revo STX on it and talk about a sweet combo! He made one for himself and put the Shimano Core on it and the whole things weighs less than 11 oz.
He enabled me to re-rod without going to the over the counter rods and he did it for a fraction of the cost. I would suggest you look around in your area for a similar deal and DO NOT BE AFRAID of the Rainshadow or Mudhole blanks, I can assure you they are the real deal and you won't be dissapointed!

Once you start fishing custom rods with micro guides it is hard to go back to production rods, there really is no comparison. I don't think I will ever not build my own rods and every rod I build gets micro guides. The Rainshadow and MHX blanks are the best value on the blank market IMO. Based on deflection measurements, the MHX blanks are exact copies of Loomis IMX blanks in regards to power and action.

[CiK]

It takes a post like this to remind me why I wanted to get into building my own rods. I built 1 last winter, and I am going to build a few more this winter. At least with me building them I will know the intent of quality will be there.

What did you mean by "just a skeet reese rod" ?

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by secure111

What did you mean by "just a skeet reese rod" ?

Since you asked "you" instead of quoting the poster, I'll assume anyone can answer this.

I'm pretty sure he meant, "not an expensive, high end rod." You're not going to get, nor expect...truly flawless assembly on a mass-produced rod like the Skeets. This thread is more of a complaint about basic assembly being off; i.e, guides not straight, handle loose, etc. Even on a low-buck rod, that minimal level of quality should be expected, and anything less not tolerated.

Ok I see what you and the poster were saying.....
Personally I use the Wright & Mcgill Tessera's and have never had any problems out of them or noticed any major defects but I can understand they are arent hand poured and rolled on the thighs of cuban virgins so they arent top of the line but in my experience they get the job done.

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Since you asked "you" instead of quoting the poster, I'll assume anyone can answer this.

I'm pretty sure he meant, "not an expensive, high end rod." You're not going to get, nor expect...truly flawless assembly on a mass-produced rod like the Skeets. This thread is more of a complaint about basic assembly being off; i.e, guides not straight, handle loose, etc. Even on a low-buck rod, that minimal level of quality should be expected, and anything less not tolerated.