Moral and/or ethical question

[joedog]

Let's start here.
During the open bass season you frequently catch stocked rainbows while bass fishing on let's say a lipless crank. Now you don't keep trout and for that matter any game fish due to your C&R beliefs. Should said fishing person still get a Trout Stamp? I do but more of a 'lets help all species' type mentality than any moral or ethical reason. Portion of fees goes to research.
Now for the real question.
Said fisherperson now goes and uses a lipless during closed bass but open trout season. Trouts closed from Sept. 30th till Jan. 1st each year.
Do you think this is wrong? Is it morally or ethically wrong if your true intentions are really to catch (and release) bass?
Now as has been discussed, there is no reason for the seasons at all other than TRADITION. Moving water has no seasons other than during trout spawn and that really pertains to streams as opposed to rivers.
The regulations just say you must release an accidentally caught trout if you don't have a stamp and I would guess the same is true for bass.
So this really has to do with ethics as opposed to regulations because I know WTL would have no problem beating this in court as well as any other case he represents after graduation.
So what do you feel about this moral/ethical dilemma?
As most have probably guessed, said fisherperson is ME!
Thanks in advance for your input

[lilmule]

Only if you keep them,however some states make up your mind via laws,such as in trout waters stamp needed,or flies only sections etc.
Same where bass might be closed yet trout open ,release unless laws say different
Your not cheating your not consuming,killing or keeping normally,bad thing is every now an then one will get hooked in such a manner you will kill it.myself I hate killing something and not using and without open season or legal for the other species cant keep.
So its all upon how you feel about it,the fact you asked means you care.
Try a bass 5 in jerkbait size of the trout will go up if present.

[bassboogieman]

First - you can't legislate morality or ethics, you either got them or you don't. Second - not everyone views those traits in a similar light, and opinions will vary. So with that in mind, my views are based upon the criteria mentioned above.

First senario: I would not buy a trout stamp, as I would not be targeting trout. With my home water, I actually avoid fishing for bass in stocked trout water, there is enough bass water to fish that do not hold trout. I also practice C & R to every possible extent, and make every attempt to return fish to the water unharmed - mortally wounded, edible fish I would keep. Now if I was a F & G officer and found someone fishing stocked trout water (out of season) with salmon eggs, red worms or other obvious trout bait, and the angler insisted he was fishing for bass, I'd be LMAO while I wrote a citation.

Second senario: I have to relate this to my home waters, so most of our stocked trout are small (6" -9") with a smattering of mid-size (10" - 13") and only a very few large trout (13" +) released into a section of stocked stream by our state. So I go back to the lure/bait issue mentioned above. An obvious bass lure, large plastic worms, other plastic baits, 1/2 oz crankbaits, spinnerbaits, even my favorite chatterbait, isn't your typical trout bait, at least in my home water. That makes it clear, in my view, that an angler using those baits is not targeting trout. You may catch one incidentally, but you'd obviously catch more bass than trout, so again I'd be LMAO while writing a cittation.

Depending upon the water and species, common sense could determine targeted species by the bait, lure and tackle being used. This example of trout vs. bass is pretty easy. If this would have been trout vs panfish, it would have been very difficult to determine which would have been the target. I've experienced similar problems in Canada, where pike season is open and bass is closed in the spring. Their WLO's don't like anglers catching bass during the closed seasons, but it is nearly impossible to claim anglers are targeting bass during pike season, because they inhabit the same areas and are fished for using the same tackle. But they better not find a bass in your livewell or cooler during the closed bass season, penalties are stiff.

With my ethics/moralityy guiding my choices, I purchase the appropriate hunting/fishing licenses, permits and tags for the species I intend to go after. I specifically target those species for which I have the appropriate paperwork. Incidental catch happens with certain species and when it does I make every attempt to release it unharmed. I believe that is in complete compliance with the fishing/hunting regulations of my state.

[nofearengineer]

I would recommend only using dynamite to fish with. That way, when questioned, they can't really prove what kind of fish you were targeting.

[MIbasser]

If somebody was out "fishing for trout" even though you are releasing them and don't have a trout stamp, hello ticket. That is your target species.

Just remember (we have this battle in MI as well), the more people are out there breaking the law, the harder it will be to change the law. We won a small battle in MI a few years ago to have a "catch and release" season. Join a bass club, get involved in politics and try to change the fishing laws. It can be done. However, chances are you won't be stopped by the DNR or even checked, but hey, if you want to fish out of season go ahead.

[bassboogieman]

[QUOTE][/I would recommend only using dynamite to fish with.QUOTE]

It's also good for constipation, although I would recommend it only in small quantities.

[joedog]

Thanks for the input all.
I feel a need to clarify one thing If only trout were present I would still fish water and truely target trout. Frankly I guess thats what I'm doing. You'll never hear me gripe about any fish I had the fun catching no matter what I truely WANT to catch.
But I can't help it if a Trout hits because no one told them thier season was closed or the same for a Bass. I'll catch trout in the early spring all day long. They love cold water and they hate being caught. (good fighting fish)
Is it my responsibility to use a lure I know won't excite or motivate another species and remember I already get a Trout Stamp without any intention of ever really needing or using it. So I'm not really trying to break laws even if they are retarded. I just got this uncomfortable feeling I know what I'm actually doing and I NEED you folks to convince me I'm right.
Soon I'll be fishing same waters for crappie and I never use live bait so again the lippless will be used. I've down sized to a 3/8 for trout and will drop another size for crappie.I have tons of written articles on targeting crappie with cranks and actually guestioned a Warden on this exact topic last spring. He told me if he knew I was targeting bass he would write me a ticket but it would probably never make it through a court.
You should also know this warden isn't exactly fisherman friendly.
Last spring he saw an old gentleman who trout fishes daily and he limits almost everyday (3 trout catch, I think 6 trout possession limits). This guys 85 years old, uses a walker to get to the water, carries a lawn chair along with two poles and tackle. Warden saw him give his fish away to someone who was fishing which he does frequently if his nieghbors and relatives have enough.
The warden saw all this from high up a hill using binoculars. Later in the day the old guy came back and the warden saw him catch a fish. Now this is legal because he left the water and came back. So this fricking warden goes to his home and checks the guys freezer and found 3 trout and hence ticketed him for a possesion violation cause he had 3 yes 3 trout in the freezer. Remember now, he gave the mornings fish away which the warden say him do.
So again, I'm not really breaking any laws!
But that in itself doesn't make it right or does it.
I know this is more of a personal issue rather than a legal issue. What ever 'I' decide to do is strictly my responsibility and remember, I don't keep fish other than pans to eat anyways.
Mibasser thanks and I've really been pretty active on getting rule changes here but it's a long road. Sammy mentioned they are reviewing these laws again this year but we'll see what happens.
Thanks again for the input everyone!

[Tavery5]

How much is the trout stamp? I think they are like an additonal 20 dollars here. If it was bothering me as much as it seems to be you, then I would just spend the extra 20 and have the peace of mind.

[nofearengineer]

I think the whole "targeting" issue is a joke, from a legal standpoint. If questioned, I would ask the wildlife officer to kindly point me to the list of state-approved species specific lures, in order to keep me legal. Otherwise, I'd love a chance to embarass them in court with a collage of photos of trout caught on crankbaits and bass caught on flies.

[bassboogieman]

I don't think the "legal" issue was the topic of discussion. It was the moral/ethical question. That makes it personal. Every angler knows his intent so that covers the moral/ethical side of the discussion. NFE is correct that in the legal sense it would be difficult to prove an individual's intent as witnessed by another. There is a huge difference between what's moral, ethical and legal.

I just read a post on another board about a woman who was/is on public assisance (in particular the food debit card, formerly known as food stamps) because she does not work. She won a million dollar state lottery prize, took the cash option and walked away with $500,000. She now owns 2 houses and has a new car, and is still on public assistance - because she is still not working! And probalby won't look for work due to her winnings. Is it legal - apparently so. Is is ethical - from my view NO! Is it moral - agian NO. So, she's quoted as saying she thinks she certainly deserves to continue receiving benifits, because she's not working. In my view her morals and ethics have been repressed, corrupted or altered by a sense of entitlement. Which is a topic for another day.

You really want to get steamed, read it.
http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Mil...141822953.html

[nofearengineer]

Bruce, I read in a later story where her benefits have been suspended. I hope it's true. Frankly, I am already mad that my tax dollars are paying for lottery tickets.

[joedog]

Originally Posted by Tavery5

How much is the trout stamp? I think they are like an additonal 20 dollars here. If it was bothering me as much as it seems to be you, then I would just spend the extra 20 and have the peace of mind.

I got the trout stamp and have since the very first time I got a licsense, every single year and I have never kept one.
The question was if I was wrong to fish something I knowly know also targets bass. Just like trout will hit lure when trout is closed and I fish using lipless than also.
Hey maybe it's just a dumb question and the 'woman' also said due to her new home she now has MORE expenses.
If it wasn't true it would be funny how greed always trumps common sense.
Again thanks for all the good input.

[bluebasser86]

I catch trout on all sorts of bass lures in the few lakes they stock them in around here, lipless cranks included. However, if an officer were to find you tossing a lipless crank during a "closed" bass season and not a catch-and-release season and you claimed to be trout fishing, I'd expect a ticket to be coming. I get the point some others are making about species specific lures but I think they would probably look at what would normally be pursued with those baits. Could you beat the ticket in court, probably, but is it worth the headache? Not to me it isn't. Trout are a lot of fun to catch on light tackle, fish for them until bass season opens up. You can still have fun catching fish and not risk getting a ticket.
Also, we don't have closed seasons here so I have to ask, could you go to a private pond and fish for bass? I wouldn't think the state would have much say in that. Ponds are usually better than lakes early anyways since they warm up faster.

[joedog]

In my state even a totally unaccesable pond even if it's your land you need to follow all the same rules. That includes culling out the shorties for mannagement purposes, can'y legally do it unless you only cull 14 inchers or larger on exception is pay a fee ponds like commercial trout ponds. The fish are then governed under retail laws. To stock a pond on your land for your sole fishing pleasure you must get each individual fish tested and approved at a fee of over a buck per fish. Bait fish absolutly forbidden and to stock crawdads or anything foriegn would take an act of God to get approved.
The ponds all have both stocked trout and bass (not stocked). I do fish ponds now. You may be amazed at how many rainbows I've caught on lipless cranks. Caught 7 this week, one 18incher. But I also caught some bass on the exact same cranks. Fact Tues. I caught more trout than bass.
So one could definitly justify it.......right?
I certainly wouldn't think I should be expected not to use a lure that I know will catch both and the fact that if I were truely targeting bass although the lipless would maybe get used but jerk baits and jigs would probably be more of my go to. I was fishing for bass when I first found out trout loved lipless cranks. Many a night I would catch more trout than bass and even had a trout bury a treble on a lipless in my finger, deep, doctor removed deep.

Come on work with me folks.

[nofearengineer]

In my state even a totally unaccesable pond even if it's your land you need to follow all the same rules. That includes culling out the shorties for mannagement purposes, can'y legally do it unless you only cull 14 inchers or larger on exception is pay a fee ponds like commercial trout ponds. The fish are then governed under retail laws. To stock a pond on your land for your sole fishing pleasure you must get each individual fish tested and approved at a fee of over a buck per fish. Bait fish absolutly forbidden and to stock crawdads or anything foriegn would take an act of God to get approved.

How anyone can stand to live in a totalitarian nightmare such as Wisconsin is beyond me.

[Tavery5]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

How anyone can stand to live in a totalitarian nightmare such as Wisconsin is beyond me.

However they do produce a tasty cheese.

[WatterBoy]

Joe -- Bass season is closed here until May 26, and we also have a regulation that says, "You may not intentionally fish for any species during its closed season". Regardless of anyone's opinion on how stupid this regulation may or may not be, I choose to follow it as best I can. I catch a fair number of pike each year on spinnerbaits, crankbaits, jigs, etc., but when I am using those lures, I am targeting bass. Therefore, if I do fish for pike when bass season is still closed (pike season opens two weeks earlier than bass), I choose not to throw anything I would normally use to target bass. Could I get away with throwing a spinnerbait or crankbait while bass season is closed? Probably. But I choose not to because it doesn't feel right to me. I will throw a Syclops or Daredevle or some other similar lure that, to me anyway, is primarily a pike lure. Just how I do it.

Dean