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Old 07-17-09, 12:11 AM   #1
nofearengineer
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Default Bad Battery

Well, I checked my batteries a couple of months ago, and they were fine. They are Interstate Megatron Deep Cycle Batteries...a good brand. The first thing I do when I get home from fishing is plug in the smart charger. I keep the terminals spotless. But one of them is now reading 10.6V after the charger shuts down with a green light. The other is at 13.3V

I am wondering if this is what is messed up my trolling motor. I read 23.9 V at the trolling motor receptacle, but the motor is still weak. Has anyone ever had a bad battery whack their trolling motor's circuitry? I'm reaching new levels of desperation now. I was looking at over $1100 to upgrade to a 36V system, but now the bad battery will add about $200 more. Even if I only spend $200-300 to fix my trolling motor, I still have to buy that stinking battery. grrrr. B.O.A.T. "Break out another thousand" is right. I might be off the water a while.
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Old 07-17-09, 01:49 AM   #2
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You need to check your amps in the battery. Voltage is great but the amps is what really does the work. As a mechanic I've seen automotive batteries say 12 volts but didn't have enough amp the crank the car. you can take your batteries to a automotive parts place and have them check them or purchase a battery load tester yourself at the same place. BEWARE!!!! Safety is always first especially with batteries. They are not something to play with. Especially one in question of condition. If you do get a tester yourself (they are not that expencive and are very handy) connect up the leads and put a blanket or towel or fender cover just something over the battery and were some kind of glasses. This may sound like alot but I had one to explode on me one time and it is a very unpleasant experiance. You don't need to be afraid of them just a little cautious. I don't really think a bad battery would've burned up your trolling motor though.
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Old 07-17-09, 09:46 AM   #3
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Actually, I think I missed something here in my reasoning.

It might be wishful thinking, but I am wondering if just changing the battery will fix the whole problem. If the battery has a dead cell, maybe the amperage is severely limited, which would explain why the motor runs at proper speed in air, but doesn't have enough torque to spin in water.

I'm going to look for a new deep cycle battery tonight. Even if the motor does turn out to be bad, I'll still need the battery, so it won't be wasted money.

Thanks for listening to me complain.
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Old 07-17-09, 01:57 PM   #4
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you will need to replace both batteries as they need to be of the same manufacture, age and capacity! They equalize out each other and a weak battery will weaken the new one!
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Old 07-17-09, 02:04 PM   #5
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Sorry to be the bearer of good news, but they're connected in series. Equalizing only happens with parallel connections.
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Old 07-17-09, 02:15 PM   #6
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check the water level in the weaker battery.. pry the caps off carefully... bet one of the cells is low on water..

heat of summer and cold of winter will pull the water out of the batteries..

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Old 07-17-09, 02:24 PM   #7
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Thanks, Zook...I will indeed do that.

BTW, Orygun...I wasn't tryin' to be a smarta$$. I'm just happy at the prospect of spending way less than I thought I was going to.

I should have said "since I run these two batteries in series, and use a two bank 12V charger, they will not equalize. I have read where people will hit the pair with a 24V charger...in which case, yes, they might charge unevenly and be damaged.
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Old 07-17-09, 02:27 PM   #8
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first rule of trouble shooting un plug the onboard charger. use a trickle charger one for each battery. i slung my on board a LONG time ago. and use a standard 2 amp trickle charger.-mine looks like it fell down cement stairs and was run over but it still works-

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Old 07-17-09, 07:20 PM   #9
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Zook...I open up the battery, and it wasn't missing but a few cc's of water. I filled it up to the bottom of the hole, put the caps on it, and put it on the charger. Same story...10.6V. Tomorrow I am off to the local battery shop to pick up a new Optima.

I heard some of these batteries might have had a 72 month warranty on them. I'm going to see if I can work something out.
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Old 07-17-09, 07:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrygunBasser View Post
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you will need to replace both batteries as they need to be of the same manufacture, age and capacity! They equalize out each other and a weak battery will weaken the new one!

He is correct BTW.

in serial they charge across each cell and also discharge. So in escense they act as one whole battery.

in paralell they combine amp hours with out change in volts,


A simple gravity test float will check each cell. Only use distilled water as well for adding dry cells.

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Old 07-17-09, 07:42 PM   #11
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Mike...he is only correct if I use a 24V charger accross the series. I charge each battery individually with its own 12V bank. The individual cells are free to equalize within each battery, but not across both batteries.
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Old 07-18-09, 08:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofearengineer View Post
Mike...he is only correct if I use a 24V charger accross the series. I charge each battery individually with its own 12V bank. The individual cells are free to equalize within each battery, but not across both batteries.
Oh yea ...you are right. I did not consider isolated bank charger..

Hmm last night when I typed this I read it six times and squeezed the last drop out of my bird bath martini glass. Perhaps I should have just shook up another snakebite instead.

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Old 07-18-09, 10:56 AM   #13
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Hahaha, Mike. Electricity can be a hard critter to understand, I agree. Especially when it comes to a specific application. That's why I ask guys who may not be classically educated on the subject, but who obviously have a a hundred times more experience with the particular application than I do. Thanks for the input...it really helps me to figure out something new, and solidify my own conclusions.

By the way, both of you were partly right; there is indeed a downside to mixing old and new batteries in series. The whole package will be limited by the current limitation of the weaker battery, and its amp-hour capactiy. When the weaker battery is drained, the system will no longer work, regardless of how much charge is left on the stronger battery.

But that is a performance issue, and not a "damage to the battery" issue.

On a side note...Mike, have you ever used a Trollbridge? Or any of the other "charge on the run" devices that charge your trolling motors off of your outboard? If I get one of those next year (fairly inexpensive), it should greatly extend my batteries' lives by keeping them closer to full charge all of the time. It even allows a single bank on-board charger to charge all of the batteries, albeit the current rating of the charger would be split over all of the battereis; i.e, slower. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
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Old 07-18-09, 06:19 PM   #14
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WOOHOO!! Trolling motor is running strong after purchasing a new Optima battery. Expensive thing...sheesh, but I can totally get into the "maintenance-free" thing. I still think Motorguide purposely built their motors hard to work on, but I guess they don't suck that bad.
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Old 07-18-09, 10:04 PM   #15
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Better having to get a new battery vs. a new trolling motor. (Just ask Woody)
Glad you figured it out.
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Old 07-18-09, 10:29 PM   #16
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bryce....remind me to tell you to put in good ol kuntry angliash how to do sumthin when i need help ok? hahahahahahaha. glad you got trolling ok. now go catch a fish or 2 pal.
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Old 07-19-09, 12:19 AM   #17
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Bama...if'n I can ever be of help to you and yorn, just holler.
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Old 07-19-09, 08:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofearengineer View Post
Hahaha, Mike. Electricity can be a hard critter to understand, I agree. Especially when it comes to a specific application. That's why I ask guys who may not be classically educated on the subject, but who obviously have a a hundred times more experience with the particular application than I do. Thanks for the input...it really helps me to figure out something new, and solidify my own conclusions.

By the way, both of you were partly right; there is indeed a downside to mixing old and new batteries in series. The whole package will be limited by the current limitation of the weaker battery, and its amp-hour capactiy. When the weaker battery is drained, the system will no longer work, regardless of how much charge is left on the stronger battery.

But that is a performance issue, and not a "damage to the battery" issue.

On a side note...Mike, have you ever used a Trollbridge? Or any of the other "charge on the run" devices that charge your trolling motors off of your outboard? If I get one of those next year (fairly inexpensive), it should greatly extend my batteries' lives by keeping them closer to full charge all of the time. It even allows a single bank on-board charger to charge all of the batteries, albeit the current rating of the charger would be split over all of the battereis; i.e, slower. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
No never used a trollbridge..

I did purchase a charge on run relay for my old GT186 Gambler. It was basically a set of wires that hooked to the starter battery and had a diode that at 12.1+ volts allowed charge from the motors alternator to the trolling batteries. It was darn near useless. And I saw no benifits..


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Old 07-21-09, 12:52 PM   #19
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Even though you charge the two batteries individually and before you hit the switch they are both charged to there capacity. The minute you hit the swich the batteries will start to equalize! The stronger battery will be drawn down to the weeker batteries level to make up the 24 volts!
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Old 07-21-09, 01:10 PM   #20
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Orygun...do you know how a series connection works?

If I hook an 11 volt battery up in series with a 13 volt battery, do you think the 11 volt battery is going to "drag down" the 13 volt battery? AT a normal discharge rate of let's say 20A, the old battery voltage might fall quicker, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the voltage on the newer battery. The new battery voltage will fall at whatever rate it falls at with a 20A current.

A simple rule any first year electrical engineering student gets drilled into his head. Parallel connection, same voltage. Series connection, same current. Like I said, for a series connection, the newer (hopefully better) battery will be limited by the resistance of the older battery in how many amps it can put out, but it is just a performance hit, not a damage issue.

If it will make you feel any better, I will post my e-mail correspondence with Optima Tech Support when I get home tonight.
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Old 07-22-09, 02:43 PM   #21
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"Orygun...do you know how a series connection works"?

Yes I do!


Well, I'm not an engineer and I guess I'm just old school enough that I believe what I beleive! It just seems to me that the good battery would have to make up for the week one in it's attempt to make 24 volts and it would over work the new battery causing it to fail quicker!

Been wrong before, Maybe this is one of those times!
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Old 07-22-09, 03:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
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"Orygun...do you know how a series connection works"?

Yes I do!


Well, I'm not an engineer and I guess I'm just old school enough that I believe what I beleive! It just seems to me that the good battery would have to make up for the week one in it's attempt to make 24 volts and it would over work the new battery causing it to fail quicker!

Been wrong before, Maybe this is one of those times!
Sorry, Orygun...I wasn't trying to be condescending. I know you were trying to help.

It's just a common misunderstanding about electrical systems that even I had before I got "edumacated." When a battery goes bad, its internal resistance gets higher, that is to say, it allows less current to pass through it. The problem with a series connection is, the system can only pass as much current as its weakest link, the bad battery.

So the good battery isn't forced to "make up for" the bad battery; it is in fact kept from doing so by the bad battery. The whole circuit puts out less power. Lower resistance = higher load on the battery. More resistance = lighter load on the battery, even though a lighter load obviously means less useful work done.

Like I said though...in a parallel connection, you are right. If the old battery is simply incapable of holding a 13.3V charge, it will drag down the new battery to its 12.9V (for example). In that case, the new battery could indeed be permanently damaged if used like this for a long time.
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