light vs balanced

[BigBassin144]

Assuming you can't have both, which would you rather have and why?

BB

[nofearengineer]

Anthony, I think the real issue is moment of inertia.

For example, let's say a 7-foot long fishing rod with reel weighs 12 oz.

Let's compare it to a 16 oz lead ball.

Yes, the fishing rod is lighter, but I'd wager the lead ball has a smaller moment of inertia. That is to say, it has less resistance to changes in its rotation. If you were to somehow copy exactly all of the motions you made all day with your fishing rod with the lead ball, your hands and arms would probably be less tired. Of course you wouldn't catch any fish (unless you hit them with the ball ), but this was just an example.

My point is, it's not the holding up the rod all day that makes it tedious, but it's the waving it back and forth casting it, and the up-and-down of imparting action to the lures.

A rod that is better balanced around the user's fulcrum (the wrist) will feel "lighter" over the course of a long day, largely regardless of actual mass. In many cases, a rod that is slightly heavier, but better balanced will be far superior in fishing experience.

[DVT Mike]

This really a personal preference and IMO varries from rod to rod depending on it's intended application. Any weight added anywhere on the rod will have some effect on sensitivity, granted, probably less than your sense of touch would ever detect. I try to achieve the desired outcome adding no weight or very little right at the butt. My top-water and twitch bait rods are left slightly tip heavy since I work them in a tip down position. A jig rod that is held with the tip high will be balanced the opposite. The thing to remember is that there is no right or wrong here, just what feels good to you.

[bassboogieman]

A rod that is better balanced around the user's fulcrum (the wrist) will feel "lighter" over the course of a long day, largely regardless of actual mass.

Well Carson, maybe if your wrist is "limp" that may be more applicable than if you're a Rambo type.

I can't accept the the idea of "balancing" a rod being nearly as critical as overall weight, close yeah, but I'm not going to concen myself with were the "perfect point of balance" occurs. Adding any weight in order to "balance" a rod directly under the reel would be an automatic NO-NO for me. A perfectly balanced rod in a static horizontal position, immediately becomes unbalanced when you attach a lure and reel it up to the tip to cast it, making the "balanced" rod, tip heavy at the start of a cast. So what do you do - keep adding or subtracting weight from a rod depending on the lure you have tied on, to maintain the rod's balance? No way I'm going to think or concern myself with that when I'm fishing. Overall weight is what I try to minimize when selecting rod & reel combinations, and as it's be said many times - that's MY preference and I'm sticking with it.

[Tavery5]

In my mind there are three key elements that go into a good fishing rod. I look for them in this order and I will explain why. Sensitivity, weight, and then balance, for me sensitivity is the most important of the three, a rod will only every be as sensitive as it is, you cannot make a rod more sensitive by balancing it. Weight, a light rod has less mass, less mass equals increased vibration propagation, equals increased sensitivity. Finally balance, you can balance any rod out there, from an ugly stick to a NRX, and it may help with the perceived sensitivity, but when you buy a good rod, you are not paying for the balance, you should be paying for how sensitive the rod is. Great materials and resins are what make one rod more sensitive than the other, in my opinion, balance is what people cling to when they have paid a lot of money for a rod that is heavier than rods that cost less. This is just my opinion.

[bamabassman]

still thinking on this one ant. i got both, so i dunno man. GOOD question.

[ruasoonerfan2]

Sensitivity is # 1 with Weight close behind when I buy a rod.

[Jrob78]

Everything in moderation. A rod that is super light is nothing if it balances 12" in front of the reel seat and a super heavy rod is nothing if it balances right under the reel seat. A rod would have to be pretty out of wack before I would add weight. At a certain point though, I think a rod does benefit from little added weight.

Which is going to be better, a 3oz rod that doesn't balance well at all or a 4oz rod that balances perfectly? To me, the slightly heavier rod is going to be so much better to fish. This only pertains to rods that are way off. If the 3oz rod is only 4" or so off the seat, give me the light rod. It all depends on how poorly the rod balances.

I combat the balance vs weight issue by building with slightly longer grips than most factory rods. If you move the reel closer to the fulcrum you get a more balanced rod. Longer grips also compliment my casting style better. I also pretty much only build with micro guides, the less weight on the end of the blank, the better the rod is going to balance and the lighter it's going to be.

In my opinion, sensitivity, balance and weight all go hand in hand. The more sensitive blanks use the best graphite and resins which, are lighter. The lighter a blank is and the lighter you go in components (guides) the better a rod is going to naturally balance.

[Tavery5]

Ill take the 3 ounce rod even unbalanced if it is the more sensitive of the two rods. I can balance it with just a little weight. But I can not make a rod more sensitive.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by Tavery5

Ill take the 3 ounce rod even unbalanced if it is the more sensitive of the two rods. I can balance it with just a little weight. But I can not make a rod more sensitive.

I agree 100% Everything I said was based (in my mind) on the idea that both rods are completely identical in every other way.

Bottom line, for me, is that adding any significant weight to a rod would only be done under very extreme conditions. If a rod is too unbalanced, don't buy it.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

Like everyone else is saying. I would never add weight unless necessary, but I do strive for balance when building them. I have one instance I am building an 8' flipping stick and it is going to have to have a weight on the butt because the handle is only 12". Leaving 7' of stick in from of the reel, it will do a one and half tuck and twist without the counterbalance. But I try to adjust the handle length to accommodate or add a decorative or trim wrap to help balance it. But I guess that could be considering adding weight. There goes my credibility.

[cassidyta]

Assuming sensativity is not being discussed:

For me it all depends on the application. Being that I throw a lot of big swimbaits, I have accepted that those rigs are heavy. In those situations balance is the key for me.
On a drop shot rig, the weight is more important to me than the balance. I figure that I am working the bait in the water a lot longer than other baits and as such I am not casting as often.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

I agree 100% Everything I said was based (in my mind) on the idea that both rods are completely identical in every other way.

Bottom line, for me, is that adding any significant weight to a rod would only be done under very extreme conditions. If a rod is too unbalanced, don't buy it.

I guess I should have put that in my original post, but I was also assuming that everything else on the rod is equal. Same blank, same guides, same handle length, etc. Only difference in one rod is light and tip heavy, the other is heavier, but balanced.

Originally Posted by Tavery5

...balance is what people cling to when they have paid a lot of money for a rod that is heavier than rods that cost less. This is just my opinion.

Very interesting thought, but one I don't personally agree with. I think there are a lot of people who look for good balance in rods, but not good balance alone. I won't spend more money for a rod just for balance, but I do look for good rods that do balance well.

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

Well Carson, maybe if your wrist is "limp" that may be more applicable than if you're a Rambo type.

I know you're just joking, but sadly, I've heard that argument from both sides of this discussion. People who prefer a light rod tell other people that you just need to work out if you have to fish with a balanced rod. I've also hear it the other way around. If you can argue the same point like that for both sides, it probably isn't a good argument to use, lol.

I guess it's time for my opinion. Like I said before, when I'm looking at this scenario, I assume both rods are equal except for weight and balance.

With that in mind, I'd take the balanced rod over the lighter rod almost always. Now I'm talking a 3oz unbalanced rod to a 4-4.5oz balanced rod, not like a 7-8oz rod to make it balanced. I've used both lightweight rods and balanced one and prefer how a balanced rod fishes. It's not as important for tip-down applications like crankbaits, so I tend to choose something between very light and nicely balanced.

I think anyone who goes out of their way and spends more money to acquire a rod simply because it balanced better or simply because it's lighter is nuts. If the rod is a good, sensitive, quality rod, then choose your preference. I realize this is all preference; I just wanted to know what everyone's preferences were and why. And there have been some great responses so far guys!

BB

[nofearengineer]

The way I like to pose this question is:

Rod #1 - regular grip rod 4 oz.

Rod #2 - Exactly the same as Rod #1, except they cut .50 oz off by making it split grip.

Now the reason I raise this example is, I believe this is exactly what some rod builders are doing, just so they can claim an improvement. The rod is no more sensitive than it was before, and now the balance is worse.

Now...here comes the complicated part. (you knew it would come, right? )

Even though the mass of the rod has been reduced, it may actually feel heavier. This sounds counter-intuitive, but let me give an example.

An propeller hub feels very little force side-to-side. This is because the blades are all precision balanced to each other. If we were to remove weight from only one blade in the interest of saving weight, the result would be disastrous when it spun up. The weight needs to be removed from each blade in an equal amount to lower stresses on the propeller hub.

Albeit, an airplane prop experiences much greater forces than a fishing rod, but the principle is the same. Think of the part of the rod above your wrist and the part of the rod below your wrist as two differently shaped prop blades, with your wrist being the hub. The minimum amount of effort to turn (cast or work) will always occur when the two "blades" are balanced correctly about the fulcrum. Since the rod part is much longer than the grip part, the grip part will have to be heavier (think of me on a see-saw with Cavs....on second thought, forget I mentioned that...)

When the balance point of the rod isn't directly in line with your wrist, everytime you move the rod, you encounter three things: the torque to rotate the rod about its own center of mass (its balance point), the torque required to rotate the center of mass of the rod about your wrist, and the force required to move the rod up/down (non-rotational movement...called "translation"). If the rod happens to be balanced at the correct point, you almost completely eliminate the second torque mentioned above (the reason I say "almost" is because there will always be the distance between the rod and your wrist; i.e. the fat part of your hand).

The weight or the drag of the lure in the water is completely irrelevant. Since the fulcrum is a fixed point; i.e, the reel and your grip point doesn't change depending on the weight of your lure you have tied on, those forces are just something that has to be lived with. You can't lessen them by "correcting" the rod balance. (Touche, Boogie...but if your shoulder is so weak as to tire quickly from an extra half ounce, you shouldn't worry about other peoples' wrists. )

Which brings me to another point. I often hear the excuse made for flipping sticks being tip heavy. It usually goes something like "I don't hold the rod tip high, so it's okay that the tip is heavy." This story does not hold water. True, flipping sticks are often just held straight out, and not pointed up, I grant you that. However, that is the exact position in which a tip-heavy rod exerts the most force due to its unbalanced condition!

I think this is largely due to anglers' desire for longer and longer flipping sticks outstripping the technology to make such a rod lightweight and balanced. I guess I don't really fault the manufacturers. They are only giving the customer what they want. The problem here is most anglers don't understand the physics behind balance. (If that were the case, I wouldn't have to come across as such a know-it-all jerk all the time. )

If you are a serious flipping guy, take my advice and tape some washers to the butt of your favorite flipping stick until it balances at the reel seat. If you can get past the initial weird feeling of it, I think you will find that even though the rod is slightly heavier overall, it feels much better in the hand.

Wow...this was a fun post. Take it in the spirit in which it is intended. I try to share what I know in a serious attempt to shine light on the truth.

[CamG]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

If you are a serious flipping guy, take my advice and tape some washers to the butt of your favorite flipping stick until it balances at the reel seat. If you can get past the initial weird feeling of it, I think you will find that even though the rod is slightly heavier overall, it feels much better in the hand.

I have done this and I absolutely hate how it feels. I am sure it's because I grew up with fishing rods that were slightly tip heavy, but, IMHO having a balanced rod is way overrated. I will take a light, slightly tip heavy rod anyday over a perfectly balanced rod.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

The way I like to pose this question is:

Rod #1 - regular grip rod 4 oz.

Rod #2 - Exactly the same as Rod #1, except they cut .50 oz off by making it split grip.

Now the reason I raise this example is, I believe this is exactly what some rod builders are doing, just so they can claim an improvement. The rod is no more sensitive than it was before, and now the balance is worse.

Now...here comes the complicated part. (you knew it would come, right? )

Even though the mass of the rod has been reduced, it may actually feel heavier. This sounds counter-intuitive, but let me give an example.

An propeller hub feels very little force side-to-side. This is because the blades are all precision balanced to each other. If we were to remove weight from only one blade in the interest of saving weight, the result would be disastrous when it spun up. The weight needs to be removed from each blade in an equal amount to lower stresses on the propeller hub.

Albeit, an airplane prop experiences much greater forces than a fishing rod, but the principle is the same. Think of the part of the rod above your wrist and the part of the rod below your wrist as two differently shaped prop blades, with your wrist being the hub. The minimum amount of effort to turn (cast or work) will always occur when the two "blades" are balanced correctly about the fulcrum. Since the rod part is much longer than the grip part, the grip part will have to be heavier (think of me on a see-saw with Cavs....on second thought, forget I mentioned that...)

When the balance point of the rod isn't directly in line with your wrist, everytime you move the rod, you encounter three things: the torque to rotate the rod about its own center of mass (its balance point), the torque required to rotate the center of mass of the rod about your wrist, and the force required to move the rod up/down (non-rotational movement...called "translation"). If the rod happens to be balanced at the correct point, you almost completely eliminate the second torque mentioned above (the reason I say "almost" is because there will always be the distance between the rod and your wrist; i.e. the fat part of your hand).

The weight or the drag of the lure in the water is completely irrelevant. Since the fulcrum is a fixed point; i.e, the reel and your grip point doesn't change depending on the weight of your lure you have tied on, those forces are just something that has to be lived with. You can't lessen them by "correcting" the rod balance. (Touche, Boogie...but if your shoulder is so weak as to tire quickly from an extra half ounce, you shouldn't worry about other peoples' wrists. )

Which brings me to another point. I often hear the excuse made for flipping sticks being tip heavy. It usually goes something like "I don't hold the rod tip high, so it's okay that the tip is heavy." This story does not hold water. True, flipping sticks are often just held straight out, and not pointed up, I grant you that. However, that is the exact position in which a tip-heavy rod exerts the most force due to its unbalanced condition!

I think this is largely due to anglers' desire for longer and longer flipping sticks outstripping the technology to make such a rod lightweight and balanced. I guess I don't really fault the manufacturers. They are only giving the customer what they want. The problem here is most anglers don't understand the physics behind balance. (If that were the case, I wouldn't have to come across as such a know-it-all jerk all the time. )

If you are a serious flipping guy, take my advice and tape some washers to the butt of your favorite flipping stick until it balances at the reel seat. If you can get past the initial weird feeling of it, I think you will find that even though the rod is slightly heavier overall, it feels much better in the hand.

Wow...this was a fun post. Take it in the spirit in which it is intended. I try to share what I know in a serious attempt to shine light on the truth.

Well, this was the first one of your overly scientific posts of yours I've understood completely. Also the first that I 100% agree with.

I just feel bad for Cavs, he's never getting off that see saw!

BB

[Lvitch]

Ok. Well I have done both and here's my take:

I used BPS stuff for a long time. I didn't balance them at first, but once I did it was a HUGE difference. Less strain on the forearms and shoulder.

I tried a vendetta rod which weighs about half of the BPS rods I was using. And again a huge change even though it was less balanced, it was much less weight. So much so that I now own 6 of them. I also have 2 carrot stix, which are even lighter. Having tried both, balance becomes much less of an issue with weight reduction. 3 oz rod with a 6 -7 oz reel makes life good. You can balance a 12 oz rod all day, but there's no need to balance a feather that's pretty close to perfectly balanced to begin with. Sensitivity is amazing as well. Even with co-ply, rocks, pebbles, different types of weeds, sand, muck, everything has a unique and different feel.

[bamabassman]

i would have to go with balanced too. and after today.....i need to balance my gear.

[Ebbetsguy]

Balanced, for comfort and accuracy. I had one setup a long while ago, that was tip heavy, just could not get used to the feel, I don't like adding things to the rod
I usually almost always have the reel before I look for the rod, so I take the reel with me when buying since balance is a big consideration for me
Things have woked out easy now, I am swithcing to all ABU Round Reels and all BPS Extreme Rods, they balance perfectly!