Like Break Strength - Marketing Hype?

[BigBassin144]

*EDIT FOR TITLE: Line Break Strength... (can't believe I missed that one... DOH!)

I didn't want to hijack the recent thread about line, so here it is.

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

Another benifit of the Hybrid is the actual breaking strength is about 30% above the line test, so the 15# line is about equal to 20# mono. It's really good line.

I know there is a lot of marketing hype about a lot of things in fishing, but this is one I really find hilarious. 15lb line that breaks at 20lbs sounds a whole lot like 20lb line to me.

Opinions?

BB

[nofearengineer]

As with any product that comes in different sizes and strength ratings, there will always be marketing shenanigans attached to it.

That being said, I can understand a line manufacturer having a bit of a dilemma with a stronger product. How do they market it?

A) Our line of the same strength rating is thinner!

or

B) Our line of the same diameter is stronger!

B just seems to sound better.

Not knowing the line Boogie is referring to, I would suspect it is such a case, where a line is going to perform in regular use the same as other lines of the same diameter. So perhaps they group it with them, and then hint that theirs is stronger.

Just my two cents.

[3dkicker]

If the line breaks at 20lbs has similar diameter to other 20lb line then I'd say yes. But I think the marketing is if it has the same diameter as other 15lb line but breaks at 20lb it would be an advantage.

Pretty much what NoFear said.

[cassidyta]

Like the other's have said,
I think that the rating could have been diameter based rather than weight class.

[BigBassin144]

Most likely, like you guys have said, the rating is based on line diameter, which IMO isn't the best way to do it. Besides the fact that there are is no industry standard (like saying 10lb line is .012"), how does the average angler know the diameter of lines is accurate. With the difference in tests sometimes being as little as .002", it would be too easy for manufacturers to bump the measurement down a bit, making their line look better.

Bryce, the line he is referring to is Yo-Zuri Hybrid, which is kind of known for having a breaking strength over it's rated strength.

On another note, I'd say that 99% of line do have a breaking strength above their rated test. Most manufacturers would rather err on the safe side. I'm sure it's better for business to have people saying, "dang, this 15lb test breaks at 18lb!" than "This stupid 15lb test breaks at 14lbs!"

BB

[HarveysMinnow]

BB, this whole issue is such a can of worms (no bait pun intended) that I don't really know where to start.

As you may remember, I posted a thread in the "Techniques & Presentations" forum about "getting the most from knots". From the testing I've had time to do so far, I'm getting some surprising results. Some of the lines I have on hand and have checked on my homemade gizmo actually break at a value higher than the stated line strength. Others are well below, but still break along the standing line as opposed to parting right where the line leaves the knot. All of this causes me to ask, "what am I really testing?". Is it line strength or knot strength or both. I'll be the first to admit that my test method is crude and probably of no benefit to anyone but me, but later I will share some of the generalities on here, after I overcome some computer problems and get around to doing more testing.

Another aspect of this line test issue relates to what I would describe as variability in the line production processes. I'm sure all the major line makers have 'quality control', in which they check line diameter, breaking strength, and other properties of the finished lines. In reality, the results they obtain for a particular line probably reflects an average value. In the statistical sense, the average only expresses part of the result. They are probably also calculating something called a 'standard deviation', which is a measure of 'scatter' in the test results. So, depending on the values they get for a particular batch of line, they could for say, 8lb line, get readings such as 7.9 +/- 0.5lb. To me this would mean that the line in question would break somewhere between 7.4 and 8.4 lbs. Of course they don't tell us this and even if they did, it might not mean much to most fishermen.

I would be interested in hearing NoFear's (Bryce) take on this, as well as others who may have experience in testing physical properties of materials.

/

[lilmule]

I think your right about knots strength versus line strength,but most likly mfg take that in account,obiously a loop knot will not worjk well with braid,yet is superb with mono.
Some knots like lines are designed to give,some not,so correct application of line and knot and type of rod are in order with what one fishes and where.
One just has to choose what one desires then use accordingly.

[bassboogieman]

I know there is a lot of marketing hype about a lot of things in fishing, but this is one I really find hilarious. 15lb line that breaks at 20lbs sounds a whole lot like 20lb line to me.

That's true if you grade the line test by breaking strengh. Yo-Zuri's marketing "hype"?, well not exactly either. Hybrid is labeled more towards line diameter, rather than breaking strength. This creates a "perception" as well as the reality of it being stronger than comparable diameter mono. The "strategy" (IMO, I don't work for Yo-Zuri), of Yo-Zuri rating by line diameter allows the angler to purchase line that will match the reel capacity noted on most reels (like 140 yds of 12#) and usually applies to a pound test mono line. That way they know how many reels they can fill from a 300 ys spool. Labeling their line by breaking strength, may make potential customers "think" they're getting a heavier line, and won't be able to fill as many reels from a spool, and therefore purchase a lighter "test" line, having a smaller diameter and taking MORE line to fill a reel. So he ends up getting less for his money. The other perception created - when using line that is perceived as 15# and actually 18# =/_ , the angler will think the line is strong, really abrasion resistant etc, while not consiously aware he actually has 18# test on the reel. Kind of like a slight of hand trick - it's an illusion. Marketing any product involves finding an angle and building on it. Hybrid has hit upon this slight of hand to make their line appear stronger than competitor's (without actually stating that it really is).

As far as breaking strength - I wouldn't use Yo-Zuri if hunting for an IGFA record, the line would negate a line class record by testing too high. Most recreational fishermen, even pro's, don't even figure records into the equation when using a particular line. IGFA test a piece of line used to land a potential record fish to ensure it's breaking strength is no greater than the label pound test. I can't argue against standardization of line ratings by breaking strength, it's how IGFA maintains is record standards. Otherwise fish would be submitted as a 10# record, when caught on 30# braid.

My opinion agian, concerning a recreational angler's reasons for selecting a particular pound test line (other than braid), regardless of material, revolves more around line size diameter relating to visibility, filling reels, and abrasion resistance dictated by structure/cover considerations, more so than at what point the line actually breaks.

All that said, if you are and informed consumer, then you may look deeper than the generalizations I've described above. Realizing the difference in Yo-Zuri as opposed to other lines, knowing its higher breaking strength vs. it's diameter, you can use this to an advantage. Specifically - crankbaits, thinner line will let your baits get deeper. 10# Hybrid will run deeper than 10# mono, I don't know about flurocarbon, haven't compared it, but as it sinks - that may be an equalizer when it comes to running depth. Same thing with spinnerbaits - if you want them to run deeper, Hybrid. Burn them at the surface probably mono. So many choices, but they are exactly that - choices each one of us must make, to suit our fishing styles. It's partially hype, but more so MARKETING guru's at work.

[nofearengineer]

Harvey,

Not working for a line manufacturer, I have no way of knowing whether or not they do it that way. However, if I was to take a stab at it, that's what I would do.

Modern manufacturing plans always account for a certain amount of product that falls below specified goals. There is a term that is thrown around a lot..."six sigma". It basically means that a certain percentage of the products will fall within a six standard deviation range according to what product characteristic you are testing.

So for a line to be classified as 20lb test, perhaps the manufacturer takes a thousand samples, and winds up with a range of 12-26lb breaking strength. However, if 90% of the samples fall within say, 19-21lb, then maybe they decide they have a good batch, and proceed with distributing it. The decision lies with each company though...as was said, there are very few standards in the fishing tackle industry...mostly because we don't demand them.

Remember also, that the test rating isn't even necessarily what you think it is. It could be instantaneous load, ultimate failure strength, repetitive failure strength, etc. They are free to call it whatever they want.

My plan is just to find a line I like, stick with it, not take any marketing hype without a few grains of salt, and definitely not repeat it to others like a trained parrot. There is far too much unjustified fanboy-ism out there, in the tackle and other markets; i.e., Ford vs. Chevy, Mercury vs. Evinrude, Republican vs.....oh wait, that last one is real.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

That's true if you grade the line test by breaking strengh. Yo-Zuri's marketing "hype"?, well not exactly either. Hybrid is labeled more towards line diameter, rather than breaking strength. This creates a "perception" as well as the reality of it being stronger than comparable diameter mono. The "strategy" (IMO, I don't work for Yo-Zuri), of Yo-Zuri rating by line diameter allows the angler to purchase line that will match the reel capacity noted on most reels (like 140 yds of 12#) and usually applies to a pound test mono line. That way they know how many reels they can fill from a 300 ys spool. Labeling their line by breaking strength, may make potential customers "think" they're getting a heavier line, and won't be able to fill as many reels from a spool, and therefore purchase a lighter "test" line, having a smaller diameter and taking MORE line to fill a reel. So he ends up getting less for his money. The other perception created - when using line that is perceived as 15# and actually 18# =/_ , the angler will think the line is strong, really abrasion resistant etc, while not consiously aware he actually has 18# test on the reel. Kind of like a slight of hand trick - it's an illusion. Marketing any product involves finding an angle and building on it. Hybrid has hit upon this slight of hand to make their line appear stronger than competitor's (without actually stating that it really is).

That's something I truly never even considered...

Then I guess this brings up a whole new issue. As the first line of your post brings up, I've always been under the impression that we do rate line by its breaking strength. I guess maybe I should pay more attention to line diameter instead of focusing on test ratings.

But maybe reel manufacturers should list line capacities according to diameter instead of the general "xxx yds of 12lb test". Because not all 12lb tests are the same diameter.

I guess it may not be all marketing hype, just different preferences as to by what measure line is rated - diameter or breaking strength.

You guys have made some great points.

BB

[bassboogieman]

I can just imagine the talk around the campfire at Wheeler.
Hey, does anyone know of a place near where we're staying that serves a crab boil? No, not a blister on a crab's butt Crawfish. Man I love crawdads, mudbugs, crawfish - yeah I eat bait. A crab boil one night would really be terrific.

[nofearengineer]

I've never actually done the crawfish thing...love to try it though. Sounds like a great idea if we can make it happen.

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by BigBassin144

Then I guess this brings up a whole new issue. As the first line of your post brings up, I've always been under the impression that we do rate line by its breaking strength. I guess maybe I should pay more attention to line diameter instead of focusing on test ratings.

But maybe reel manufacturers should list line capacities according to diameter instead of the general "xxx yds of 12lb test". Because not all 12lb tests are the same diameter.

I guess it may not be all marketing hype, just different preferences as to by what measure line is rated - diameter or breaking strength.

You guys have made some great points.

BB

My impression is that line diameter ultimately determines breaking strength, so I'm not sure these two attributes can be totally separated. If we try to picture things at the molecular level, we could think of the line as a bundle of overlapping parallel strands of polymer. For a smaller diameter line, there are fewer strands in the bundle, hence the less force it takes to pull all these strands apart. For any given polymer, the inherent tensile strength could be a function of the composition of the polymer as well as the diameter of the line. So two lines of the exact same diameter but different chemical compositions can have different breaking points.

.

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

I can just imagine the talk around the campfire at Wheeler.
Hey, does anyone know of a place near where we're staying that serves a crab boil? No, not a blister on a crab's butt Crawfish. Man I love crawdads, mudbugs, crawfish - yeah I eat bait. A crab boil one night would really be terrific.

Man, I am in on that. In the past, we've always done a fish fry on Saturday night, but crawfish is juuuuust fine with me, instead. Or we could do both....a few bags of crawfish plus fish, hushpuppies, cole slaw, etc.....

Dangit, now I'm hungry.

[bamabassman]

IF YA'LL WANNA EAT BASS BAIT GO RIGHT AHEAD. NOT ME MAN. i seen it and don't want any part of it. lol. hahahaha!

[bassboogieman]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, John you do eat panfish , right?
BASS BAIT.

[Raul]

Line breaking strength is for most american made lines as a benchmark of the minimum breaking point you can expect, the line is rated 10 lbs then 10 lbs is the minimum the manufacturer guarantees you, it will break over 10 lbs. That´s one of the reasons when you are a line class record chaser have to take into consideration ( and why IGFA requires a sample ) when you are into that, your line has to break at or slightly below the rating of the line class record you are after. So far and if memory doesn´t fail me ANDE Tournament is the only IGFA certified line available in America.

Japanese lines are different, for japanese manufacturers the IGFA rating is the benchmark so when you purchase japanese line you have to be aware that it will break at the rating. Also, maybe not many of you guys is used to purchase japanese reels, the line capacity of JDM reels is for japanese line, spool in US made line and your reel will hold less line.

[Rebbasser]

Bottom line: Does it REALLY make all that much of a difference? There is a whole lot of discussion on it, but to me it really isn't all that important. As long as I can get the fish in the boat I'm happy. I have my line test preferences but if i break off I break off. It just doesn't matter all that much to me.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by Raul

Line breaking strength is for most american made lines as a benchmark of the minimum breaking point you can expect, the line is rated 10 lbs then 10 lbs is the minimum the manufacturer guarantees you, it will break over 10 lbs. That´s one of the reasons when you are a line class record chaser have to take into consideration ( and why IGFA requires a sample ) when you are into that, your line has to break at or slightly below the rating of the line class record you are after. So far and if memory doesn´t fail me ANDE Tournament is the only IGFA certified line available in America.

Japanese lines are different, for japanese manufacturers the IGFA rating is the benchmark so when you purchase japanese line you have to be aware that it will break at the rating. Also, maybe not many of you guys is used to purchase japanese reels, the line capacity of JDM reels is for japanese line, spool in US made line and your reel will hold less line.

Raul, that's a great explanation of our lines vs Japanese lines.

Originally Posted by Rebbasser

Bottom line: Does it REALLY make all that much of a difference? There is a whole lot of discussion on it, but to me it really isn't all that important. As long as I can get the fish in the boat I'm happy. I have my line test preferences but if i break off I break off. It just doesn't matter all that much to me.

Reb, you're right, it doesn't make that much of a difference. Just like most of the big debates in the fishing world, it all comes down to personal preference. But, unlike you, many of us are looking at hard water for at least another month or two. These pointless discussion (and buying tackle) is what gets us through winter!

BB

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by BigBassin144

Reb, you're right, it doesn't make that much of a difference. Just like most of the big debates in the fishing world, it all comes down to personal preference. But, unlike you, many of us are looking at hard water for at least another month or two. These pointless discussion (and buying tackle) is what gets us through winter!

BB

Amen to that BB. I may not be looking at frozen lakes, but it's still too cold (for me) to enjoy fishing when it's in the 30's or even low 40's. So, I sit by the fire or go out to my shop and twiddle with my tackle, or spool on some new line, etc. I'm even thinking of taking up fly and popper tying...anything to keep me occupied til better weather!


.

[WatterBoy]

And even after the soft water reappears, some of us still need to wait until bass season opens on May 28 before we can legally fish for bass.

[Rebbasser]

Reb, you're right, it doesn't make that much of a difference. Just like most of the big debates in the fishing world, it all comes down to personal preference. But, unlike you, many of us are looking at hard water for at least another month or two. These pointless discussion (and buying tackle) is what gets us through winter!

BB

Very good point, BB-I had not thought about that.

[islandbass]

Well said, BB! Spot on, 100% true, I'm also in that boat!

@Watterboy - now that ... is torture!

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by WatterBoy

And even after the soft water reappears, some of us still need to wait until bass season opens on May 28 before we can legally fish for bass.

Not to get political, but I think you know how you need to vote if you'd like that sort of nonsense to change.