Progressive Government

[WTL]

There are many reasons why we should favor a more inclusive, progressive and active government in America. This post aims to provide the basis for people to understand what is good about leftist politics for you and me.

America is the greatest example of pluralism in human history. Represented by our democratically elected government is practically every example imaginable of religion, creed, race, and moral orientation. This is a good thing in and of itself, but it denies us the opportunity that exists in more static and homogenous nation-states to have systematic and idealistic forms of government; instead the US must be governed by pragmatism.

Because of the wide disparity among groups in America, there is a wide disparity in terms of opportunity, wealth, education, health care and success. There are two ways to deal with this. 1., you can do nothing and hope for the best, but that has proven not to work. 2., you can actively use the government and people of talent, initiative and vision located within it to spread the advancement that is present at the higher levels of American society across the political spectrum.

While government run programs in the past have suffered from a few regrettable examples of inefficiency, like anything, the more experience one has with something the more they improve. The social safety net is not perfectible, but it is always improvable and in its own right offers enough advantages to the lower classes that it should be robust and protected.

The free market, it is true, is efficient. But it is not moral. The efficiency of the allocation of resources works to favor the already affluent and harm the struggling. But through a combination of private ownership of the means of production and public guidance of the direction of the markets, with regulation provided by honest and impartial overseers, we can insure the benefits of capitalism - economic growth and prosperity and upward mobility - while avoiding most of the harmful side effects which plague the margins.

There is an old Norman Rockwell painting, derived from an FDR speech, called "Freedom of Want". This illustrates a very important concept in the notion of freedom - positive freedom. Whereas the old notion of freedom was negative nature, IE freedom from, positive freedom is the freedom to and requires the means to engage in one's pursuit of happiness. This implies that every person deserves an income or means of living by virtue of their common humanity.

Now that the ideological underpinnings of progressive politics are clear, a few suggestions on specific political topics.

First among the items I suggest is the idea of a living Constitution that keeps in touch with our current democratic ideas and needs. The constitution serves as a basic framework for government, pointing the direction that American democracy should pursue, but it is not rigid in nature. It is up to us to fill in the spaces and interpret the clauses for each new generation.

Second, a general effort should always be made to promote the disenfranchised, the little person, be it the union worker or the single mom, the immigrant striving to make it or the racial minority. The definition of fairness should not be that all people are treated %100 equal under law, but are treated so that they may have as close to %100 equal opportunity.

Third, there is a pragmatic essence to the importance of government. The free market is blind to some things, but with leadership of the top economic minds, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, the Secretary of Treasury, Secretary of State, President, and various other officials, it is possible to make the correct decisions to smooth out business cycles and expedite progress on a national and demographic basis.

Fourth, health care, education, housing, and food are all examples of positive rights and are recognized as such by venerated organizations such as the United Nations. We cannot truly be the great country our founders intended it to be without ensuring all of the above to each and every American.

Fifth, the United States should actively use its wealth and power abroad to promote democracy, peace and human rights. It should also put its money where its mouth is by forgiving 3rd world debt, and assisting the IMF in assisting troubled nations seeking a new start.

Finally, it is the will of the people that should be the primary concern of American politics. Democracy is freedom. Through the practice of representative democracy we can insure a stable society while we adapt to new challenges.

Discuss.

[nofearengineer]

Oh boy...Bobby threw me a bone.

I can't wait to get home tonight to respond to this...too much for a work-computer rebuttal.

[flbassman]

Wtl, you are considerably smarter than me, and I don't have the knowledge or eloquence to effectively disagree with your statements. But I know on a deep fundamental level that there is something wrong with them. I feel comfortable commenting on idea number 4, as that is the point I understood the most. Our government is not responsible to provide any of those things to anyone. Our government is responsible to provide the opportunity for individuals to acess such things, and to allow private citizens, businnesses and charities to create opportunities for individuals to acquire healthcare, food, etc. In extreme circumstances, regulation may be neccesary, if the poor and uneducated are being preyed upon. This may not even require government intervention, but only the permission for a little vigilanteism by enraged citizens. The core principle throughout this is that human beings are all morally corrupt. Utopia will not be achieved, due mainly to greed at all levels. Through selflessness and God's guidance, progress can be made, but God has been relegated to at best a possibility, and at worst a fantasy. Selflessness is considered weak in comparison to cutthroatism. Before America can be healed, repentance, responsibility and faith need to be restored as key values. Dang man, you got me thinkn hard. I will post more as I ponder more lol.

[jasonfish320]

Spread democracy around the world? Look at what it's cost us in Iraq alone. You're talking about changing people's culture forever. This will only make the human civilization boring and predictable not to mention impossible. Do you think all people want democracy? And who are we to instill our beliefs and government onto other people. I guess we can all buy the same house, same car, same wife, same job and give up our pursuit for anything...right?

Education is absolutely outrageous in this country, we can't even talk about the possibility of intelligent design without being prosecuted. It should be mandatory (as it was for me) to take a theology course and understand both sides of the issue. If government has control over education they will just blank out our kids minds so they can't think for themselves and just fill them with the mindless media so they can teach them that the lifestyles are more important than war, disease, famine and that everyone needs designer jeans, celebrity magazines, tv's with 200 channels and Ikea catalog to make their lives complete. Make us consumer zombies so as soon as we get into the real world they will only think that it's the type of car they drive, the house they own or the money they have in the bank that is important.

My fear is that the government will start to control too much and we won't be allowed to think for ourselves anymore, which is pretty much what you are outlining here. History for example, is the accounts of prior events from a single perspective or popular perspective. If you allow a government to control your perspective un-challenged we will lose everything that this country was built upon.

The only thing that our government can run well is the military. We are the most equipped and trained force in the world. But at a tremendous cost, we spend nearly more money than the next 30 developed countries combined.

I stand by my belief that we must go back to better managing our local governments. Sort of a grassroots approach at fixing the system. The fed is too big and too complex.

[Jim80]

Very well written WTL as a looking through the glass type statement and it truly shows the level of education needed to be able to make an argument for the views that are so opposite your own .


jim

[1/4 stick]

While government run programs in the past have suffered from a few regrettable examples of inefficiency

Just a few huh?

[1/4 stick]

First among the items I suggest is the idea of a living Constitution that keeps in touch with our current democratic ideas and needs. The constitution serves as a basic framework for government, pointing the direction that American democracy should pursue, but it is not rigid in nature. It is up to us to fill in the spaces and interpret the clauses for each new generation.

First, what's the point of a constitution to begin with? The one we have is ignored unless it suits the politician’s agenda. And second, what is to keep this "living constitution" from being altered at the whim of any one sided congress, such as we have now, for corrupt, unscrupulous , or party favored agendas without the will of the people being taken into consideration?

Second, a general effort should always be made to promote the disenfranchised, the little person, be it the union worker or the single mom, the immigrant striving to make it or the racial minority. The definition of fairness should not be that all people are treated %100 equal under law, but are treated so that they may have as close to %100 equal opportunity.

Is this a fancy way to reinstate affirmative action? That same debunked system that took jobs from the better qualified and gave them to someone unable to comprehend the job just because of their race? That idea is racism in itself.

Third, there is a pragmatic essence to the importance of government. The free market is blind to some things, but with leadership of the top economic minds, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, the Secretary of Treasury, Secretary of State, President, and various other officials, it is possible to make the correct decisions to smooth out business cycles and expedite progress on a national and demographic basis.

What qualifications will these people be required to have to have to prove they have the knowledge to make such decisions? Will we have an ex-CEO of a car manufacturer telling textiles what they need to do regarding their business dealings? It won’t work because these people have no knowledge of these businesses. Such a policy could very well destroy an already crippled economy! Do you want China to own us? Seems so.

Fourth, health care, education, housing, and food are all examples of positive rights and are recognized as such by venerated organizations such as the United Nations. We cannot truly be the great country our founders intended it to be without ensuring all of the above to each and every American.

First, the U.N. is useless, why would anyone care what they recognize? People should have the right to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and earn these things the way the rest of us have, through hard work and dedication, not to have it handed to them off the backs of hard working Americans that have struggled tooth and nail to get what they have. To do this is infringing on our rights to keep what we earn.

Fifth, the United States should actively use its wealth and power abroad to promote democracy, peace and human rights. It should also put its money where its mouth is by forgiving 3rd world debt, and assisting the IMF in assisting troubled nations seeking a new start.

We’ve tried to promote these things abroad, and they’ve spat in our faces while taking our handouts. We’ve apparently already forgiven the 3rd world debt, cause we haven’t been paid back. How would we go about foreclosing on a country anyway? And assist the IMF? We’ve tried, and the countries we’ve tried to help have spat in our faces…. etc… etc…

Finally, it is the will of the people that should be the primary concern of American politics. Democracy is freedom. Through the practice of representative democracy we can insure a stable society while we adapt to new challenges.

I agree. But it hasn’t happened in my lifetime, why would I expect it to change.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

First, what's the point of a constitution to begin with? The one we have is ignored unless it suits the politician’s agenda. And second, what is to keep this "living constitution" from being altered at the whim of any one sided congress, such as we have now, for corrupt, unscrupulous , or party favored agendas without the will of the people being taken into consideration?

The Constitution is a notable historical document, much like the magna carta, which has an importance related to its time and impact on the history that followed it, but that has in many ways been passed by other more important ideas. For instance originally the Constitution defined slaves as only counting 3/5ths a person. How can we put such faith in such a document as that? Its legal importance is at best a framework, the bill of rights being the most important part, but there are other things that are of greater importance such as urgent political necessity and the will of the people.

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

What qualifications will these people be required to have to have to prove they have the knowledge to make such decisions? Will we have an ex-CEO of a car manufacturer telling textiles what they need to do regarding their business dealings? It won’t work because these people have no knowledge of these businesses. Such a policy could very well destroy an already crippled economy! Do you want China to own us? Seems so.

Look, these people rise to such lofty positions based on their level of intelligence and value to their country. They are put into place openly and under the watch of our elected officials, most notably the President of the United States.

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

First, the U.N. is useless, why would anyone care what they recognize? People should have the right to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and earn these things the way the rest of us have, through hard work and dedication, not to have it handed to them off the backs of hard working Americans that have struggled tooth and nail to get what they have. To do this is infringing on our rights to keep what we earn.

Do you not care about the right of the poor black to have a needed operation? Does it inconvieneince you too much? Your success is the result of your position in America and in the social class structure, you have a duty to give back. The UN is just one of many organizations which recognizes the rights to education and health care, and the will of the world community is very important and cannot be ignored.

[sac]

Originally Posted by jasonfish320

Spread democracy around the world? Look at what it's cost us in Iraq alone. You're talking about changing people's culture forever. This will only make the human civilization boring and predictable not to mention impossible. Do you think all people want democracy? And who are we to instill our beliefs and government onto other people. I guess we can all buy the same house, same car, same wife, same job and give up our pursuit for anything...right?

Education is absolutely outrageous in this country, we can't even talk about the possibility of intelligent design without being prosecuted. It should be mandatory (as it was for me) to take a theology course and understand both sides of the issue. If government has control over education they will just blank out our kids minds so they can't think for themselves and just fill them with the mindless media so they can teach them that the lifestyles are more important than war, disease, famine and that everyone needs designer jeans, celebrity magazines, tv's with 200 channels and Ikea catalog to make their lives complete. Make us consumer zombies so as soon as we get into the real world they will only think that it's the type of car they drive, the house they own or the money they have in the bank that is important.

My fear is that the government will start to control too much and we won't be allowed to think for ourselves anymore, which is pretty much what you are outlining here. History for example, is the accounts of prior events from a single perspective or popular perspective. If you allow a government to control your perspective un-challenged we will lose everything that this country was built upon.

The only thing that our government can run well is the military. We are the most equipped and trained force in the world. But at a tremendous cost, we spend nearly more money than the next 30 developed countries combined.

I stand by my belief that we must go back to better managing our local governments. Sort of a grassroots approach at fixing the system. The fed is too big and too complex.

?????? I'm not buying

[1/4 stick]

The Constitution is a notable historical document, much like the magna carta, which has an importance related to its time and impact on the history that followed it, but that has in many ways been passed by other more important ideas. For instance originally the Constitution defined slaves as only counting 3/5ths a person. How can we put such faith in such a document as that? Its legal importance is at best a framework, the bill of rights being the most important part, but there are other things that are of greater importance such as urgent political necessity and the will of the people.

Granted there are many parts in the Constitution that were written for things that do not apply now. Those things have also been ratified. Slavery no longer exists, therefore it no longer applies. Political necessity is exactly why the Constitution should not be made so easy to change. It will make things far too easy for a party majority to push through things that are for personal and party benefits, that are not the will of the people.
　
　

Look, these people rise to such lofty positions based on their level of intelligence and value to their country. They are put into place openly and under the watch of our elected officials, most notably the President of the United States.

　
No, they are people put into place for political reasons to gain more power over the people. If intelligence were a factor so many of ‘czars we have now wouldn’t be so dumbfounded when someone asks them a question about the very things they are in charge of. The head of the IRS can’t even figure his own taxes out, he certainly doesn’t need to be overseeing and responsible for our citizens taxes. Leaving their appointments to our elected officials, especially through one person, “most notably our president” is an open invitation for corruption. And there is already enough of that present, there’s no need to give them an opportunity for more.
　

Do you not care about the right of the poor black to have a needed operation? Does it inconvenience you too much? Your success is the result of your position in America and in the social class structure, you have a duty to give back. The UN is just one of many organizations which recognizes the rights to education and health care, and the will of the world community is very important and cannot be ignored.

First, I started out poor white trash and a high school drop out to boot. I have moved up through hard work, self educating and struggle, the same as most who are succesfull have to do. Once I got my senses, and lost the day dream of how fair life should be and how life had cheated me, I took advantage of every opportunity I could find. And if I couldn’t find that opportunity, then I created it. Do not tell me of social structure and class holding people down. All that stuff means is you have to get off your butt and work a little harder than some. If life was fair it would be a boring useless existence.
We already have programs for such things that have been so over run with bureaucracy , red tape, and inept employees. Why create another? We should reform what we presently have, Medicaid, Medicare, and my personal pet peeve… social security disability. If my taxes are to be raised, raise them to fix those leftist disasters rather than creating yet another program doomed to suffer the same fate as these. And government health insurance has to be the biggest most useless joke for the poor black person, poor white person, Latino…etc. Poor is poor by the way. Poverty knows no color.

[1/4 stick]

btw WTL, I'm not much of a debater. Just thought I'd try my hand at it and hope I don't make myself look stupid.

[WTL]

First off, these people that are dependent on government assistance exist. You aren't going to get rid of them. They are the result of the personal inefficiencies of capitalism, the spare workers, and either they are out on the street up to no good or we take them off the street.

Second, I believe it getting things done. We need to do what works in this country. Too often, the procedural bent of the Constitution delays the quick and effective action that we in government need to take. To be clear, we would pass what we need anyways, this isn't about totally circumventing the Constitution, but more so bending it here and there on issues of procedure and form while still staying true to the spirit of the document. This is what is meant by a living Constitution.

The Czars are nothing other than arms of the executive branch. They are a delegation of authority from that branch and serve to free up the time of the President so that he can turn his attention to more important issues of pushing his and the people's agenda (as reflected by the mandate he received last November) through Congress to give aid and relief to the people.

Finally, 1/4th, for every story of a person who eventually had a bit of luck fall their way, stories like yours, there are those where people have been buried by hard luck. Single moms, dropouts because of family tragedy, people raised in the inner city - these people didnt have the chance. They will never have a chance, so we must settle for what we can give them. It is what a compassionate society does.

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by WTL

First off, these people that are dependent on government assistance exist. You aren't going to get rid of them. They are the result of the personal inefficiencies of capitalism, the spare workers, and either they are out on the street up to no good or we take them off the street.

Second, I believe it getting things done. We need to do what works in this country. Too often, the procedural bent of the Constitution delays the quick and effective action that we in government need to take. To be clear, we would pass what we need anyways, this isn't about totally circumventing the Constitution, but more so bending it here and there on issues of procedure and form while still staying true to the spirit of the document. This is what is meant by a living Constitution.

The Czars are nothing other than arms of the executive branch. They are a delegation of authority from that branch and serve to free up the time of the President so that he can turn his attention to more important issues of pushing his and the people's agenda (as reflected by the mandate he received last November) through Congress to give aid and relief to the people.

Finally, 1/4th, for every story of a person who eventually had a bit of luck fall their way, stories like yours, there are those where people have been buried by hard luck. Single moms, dropouts because of family tragedy, people raised in the inner city - these people didnt have the chance. They will never have a chance, so we must settle for what we can give them. It is what a compassionate society does.

There shouldn’t be any reason to push anything through and change things that quick. Look at what has happened with the tarp. Just had to push that through to save our world. Had to be done right then. And here we are, it’s done no good because most of it hasn’t been used, Unemployment is rising, and that money has, for the most part, yet to be used. Btw, where is that money at now? Sure isn’t being put to work to create the jobs your people promised.

They have every opportunity I or anyone else has had, they just have to get the determination to get off their duff and work to achieve better. But why would they when they’re getting more than they need as it is.

And tell me buddy, how are you going to fund this utopia?
It won’t be from my taxes because if the government is going to take care of me, there’s no need for me to work. Why would I? Everything I bust my hump for will be taken by the government to fund these wonderful, warm fuzzy programs and pay for all the president’s arms. Nope, I’ll concede and let the government take care of me and my children.

Problem is, I’m not the only one who is going to think that way. Soon no one will be working and paying taxes, the only thing I’m not sure of is which will collapse first, the government, or the economy. I have a feeling the economy, cause no one will be working to produce the goods that no one has any money to buy anyway. And when everything has collapsed what’s left? Anarchy?

Hey! Now I know how yall got the name left! Cause after ya done screwing round with the system… aint nothing left.

Anarchy

[WTL]

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

There shouldn’t be any reason to push anything through and change things that quick. Look at what has happened with the tarp. Just had to push that through to save our world. Had to be done right then. And here we are, it’s done no good because most of it hasn’t been used, Unemployment is rising, and that money has, for the most part, yet to be used. Btw, where is that money at now? Sure isn’t being put to work to create the jobs your people promised.

They have every opportunity I or anyone else has had, they just have to get the determination to get off their duff and work to achieve better. But why would they when they’re getting more than they need as it is.

And tell me buddy, how are you going to fund this utopia?
It won’t be from my taxes because if the government is going to take care of me, there’s no need for me to work. Why would I? Everything I bust my hump for will be taken by the government to fund these wonderful, warm fuzzy programs and pay for all the president’s arms. Nope, I’ll concede and let the government take care of me and my children.

Problem is, I’m not the only one who is going to think that way. Soon no one will be working and paying taxes, the only thing I’m not sure of is which will collapse first, the government, or the economy. I have a feeling the economy, cause no one will be working to produce the goods that no one has any money to buy anyway. And when everything has collapsed what’s left? Anarchy?

Hey! Now I know how yall got the name left! Cause after ya done screwing round with the system… aint nothing left.

Anarchy

You absolutely have to move quickly, sometimes the 75% correct solution done quickly is much better than the %90 solution done slowly. Had we come with a stronger stimulous under GW Bush in early 2008, we perhaps could have avoided this economic situation.

The economy is pushed forward through consumer spending and aggregate demand. The way we got out of the depression was due to 2 things; leaving the Gold Standard, and the works projects of FDR which stimulated demand. The laissez-faire capitalist Hoover however was all hands off on the economy and thus there was no stimulation of aggregate demand. All this is proven and accepted economic doctrine, straight out of the big book of John Maynard Keynes.

You will work because you like it. That you dont have to doesnt matter, people will work enough to keep the ecomomy growing. The work just gets spread around a little better along with the money this way.

Also, consider the new green job revolution. In the new green economy, we can create 3,000,000 jobs by going to things like solar, wind and hydroelectric energy, more effiicient lightbulbs, ect. Its like killing 2 birds with 1 stone. On one hand, we help turn around global warming, on the other, we stimulate a sagging economy.

You still havent told me what you are going to do with all the people on aid if you cut it off. There will be senior citizens dying in the streets.

[flbassman]

Originally Posted by WTL

You will work because you like it. That you dont have to doesnt matter, people will work enough to keep the ecomomy growing. The work just gets spread around a little better along with the money this way.

Wrong. Welcome to soviet Russia, Cuba, and inner city america. People only work if its required. Human nature.

[WTL]

OK, I'm going to Wilson lake around 10ish so I will be gone for a few days. Plus I have taken this about as far as I can personally.

I have found a few interesting things from this experiment.

The original post was very easy to write. I did it in about 20 minutes, it just flowed. I honestly did my best for the left.

But as I came to make my rebuttals, I basically had already exhausted the small logical underpinnings on what the progressive movement is founded on and could go no further without resorting to emotional appeals, straw men arguments, and generally sloppy arguing.

There werent many ways I could counter what yall were saying. The temptation then, is to make it about personality, make it about supposed morality, anything to keep it from being about cold, calculated cost-benefit analysis and logic.

So many times I wanted to counter myself, and sometimes as I was writting my leftist words I could see as I went the holes and felt bad that I was doing such a poor job of leaving it vulnerable and easy to counter. I hope someone on the left doesnt read this and think I purposely made weak arguments, ala Alan Colmes, maybe I just dont understand the liberal mind past the basics.

This forum has begun to get a good political crew going with some sharp discussions, and Im glad that its going pretty civil. I wish we had some more lefties, some real heavyweights, but bassfishermen in general are too reasonable to be that.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by WTL

OK, I'm going to Wilson lake around 10ish so I will be gone for a few days. Plus I have taken this about as far as I can personally.

I have found a few interesting things from this experiment.

The original post was very easy to write. I did it in about 20 minutes, it just flowed. I honestly did my best for the left.

But as I came to make my rebuttals, I basically had already exhausted the small logical underpinnings on what the progressive movement is founded on and could go no further without resorting to emotional appeals, straw men arguments, and generally sloppy arguing.

There werent many ways I could counter what yall were saying. The temptation then, is to make it about personality, make it about supposed morality, anything to keep it from being about cold, calculated cost-benefit analysis and logic.

So many times I wanted to counter myself, and sometimes as I was writting my leftist words I could see as I went the holes and felt bad that I was doing such a poor job of leaving it vulnerable and easy to counter. I hope someone on the left doesnt read this and think I purposely made weak arguments, ala Alan Colmes, maybe I just dont understand the liberal mind past the basics.

This forum has begun to get a good political crew going with some sharp discussions, and Im glad that its going pretty civil. I wish we had some more lefties, some real heavyweights, but bassfishermen in general are too reasonable to be that.

Glad to see you actually leaning back to the "right", you were beginning to scare me!

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by WTL

OK, I'm going to Wilson lake around 10ish so I will be gone for a few days. Plus I have taken this about as far as I can personally.

I have found a few interesting things from this experiment.

The original post was very easy to write. I did it in about 20 minutes, it just flowed. I honestly did my best for the left.

But as I came to make my rebuttals, I basically had already exhausted the small logical underpinnings on what the progressive movement is founded on and could go no further without resorting to emotional appeals, straw men arguments, and generally sloppy arguing.

There werent many ways I could counter what yall were saying. The temptation then, is to make it about personality, make it about supposed morality, anything to keep it from being about cold, calculated cost-benefit analysis and logic.

So many times I wanted to counter myself, and sometimes as I was writting my leftist words I could see as I went the holes and felt bad that I was doing such a poor job of leaving it vulnerable and easy to counter. I hope someone on the left doesnt read this and think I purposely made weak arguments, ala Alan Colmes, maybe I just dont understand the liberal mind past the basics.

This forum has begun to get a good political crew going with some sharp discussions, and Im glad that its going pretty civil. I wish we had some more lefties, some real heavyweights, but bassfishermen in general are too reasonable to be that.

I think you did very well. It's hard to argue something that you yourself don't completely agree with. I tried my best to argue my point, but as I said, I'm not a debater. Of course I had a lot of practice arguing with my ex-wives.

Though I'm still trying to figure out where I said to cut the aid to people, could of sworn I said reform the programs already in place.

Hope you have a good trip man, and thanks I learned a bit about political debate too.

[crankybait]

Woah... my head hurts...

Just a note here. Let's make sure the political stuff stays civil and flaming doesnt get all crazy. The first forum i frequented (BDO) just grew unbearable with it

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by crankybait

Woah... my head hurts...

Just a note here. Let's make sure the political stuff stays civil and flaming doesnt get all crazy. The first forum i frequented (BDO) just grew unbearable with it

I agree cranky. I was on a forum that had a political catagory. It was cool for awhile, then the name calling and personal insults grew rampant. I quit even looking in the political thread. After awhile it spread into the other threads and just got unbarrable. It's amazing how politics can turn otherwise nice well mannered adults into rude sniveling brats calling each other vulgar names, and sending threats. It really takes someone with no backbone what so ever to threaten to beat you up when they are on a computer 1000 miles away.