Who am I?

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by bassFishingWNY

"The Constitutional system of government that was set up has been altered too much for it to occur".

And WHO did that? "Bush"! Our for-fathers are turning over in their grave because of the last 8 years!

Plese list the Constitutional changes that Bush made that affect how the Presidency is determined. Please do.

Kneejerk anti-Bush rantings are so passe. The guy made some legitimate blunders during his term. I'd rather discuss them than how he's the Devil. Such hyperbole is really unconstructive.

[bassFishingWNY]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Plese list the Constitutional changes that Bush made that affect how the Presidency is determined. Please do.

Kneejerk anti-Bush rantings are so passe. The guy made some legitimate blunders during his term. I'd rather discuss them than how he's the Devil. Such hyperbole is really unconstructive.

"The Constitutional system of government that was set up has been altered too much for it to occur".

I was posting to the quote above. Ok, the Constitution wasn't changed by Bush, but the ones that decide what it is (the Supreme Court), and the republican attorney general (Harris), and governor (Jeb Bush) in 2000 did.
Then in 2004, Ohio not letting the Democrats vote, while giving the Repubs all the voting machines they need. 100,000s of votes for Bush, when only a few hundred live there, a republican attorney general who made sure Bush won, Diebold voting machines that a monkey could hack, need I go on?

Most signing statements by any president, fire the prosecutors that wore not Bush lovers, appoint his sweet heart Meris for SC, Stacked everything to be in his favor when the torture memo come down.

You are damm right I'm a Bush brasher! The worse president in America history! That stole 2 elections!
Now Colman from Minn, is trying the same!
Cheat, steal, lie, the GOP way!

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by zooker

wtf?? racists?? just cause were are from the south don't make us racists..brotha love,1/4 stick,and my self see the effects of racisum every day..


i can tell by uninformed crack that you have never down south long enough to see racisum..


zooker

True, but I'm begining to believe it's a bigger issue up north then it's ever been here in the south. It also seems to be the only argument that can be given when somebody says they don't like what Obama is doing.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by bassFishingWNY

Is that the ties you see with Repub's, and Dems?

As a side not, the only president to be impeached other then Clinton was Lincoln's VP, a Democrat too!
Seems the GOP like impeaching presidents!

"The Constitutional system of government that was set up has been altered too much for it to occur".

And WHO did that? "Bush"! Our for-fathers are turning over in their grave because of the last 8 years!

No, not going back to the beginnings of the GOP. I was speaking of the neoconservative political movement which includes wolfowitz, cheney, and rumsfeld among others.

This I will quote from wiki:

"New" conservatives initially approached this view from the political left. The forerunners of neoconservatism were often liberals or socialists who strongly supported the Allied cause in World War II, and who were influenced by the Great Depression-era ideas of the New Deal, trade unionism, and Trotskyism, particularly those who followed the political ideas of Max Shachtman.

Trotskytes are a type of communist associated with murdered soviet leader Leon Trotsky btw.

My comments on the Constitution reflect things that happened long before Bush was a gleam in his parents eyes. There are 3 very important changes regarding amendments that eliminated the system of checks and balances on the federal government and that have allowed Federal power become so pervasive as to bar a good president and fair exercise of power from ever occurring again.

The 10th amendment states

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

This means if Congress or the federal government wasnt given explicit authority to do something, that authority can only be exercised by the states.

This amendment has come to be gradually ignored. The courts normally do an end run around it by referencing the interstate commerce clause, which is a hollow legal manuevre totally out of whack with the intentions of the framers, but if this amendment were to be adhered to 95% of the federal government's current power would be eliminated.

The 16th amendment gives the federal government the ability to collect income taxes. This allows the government access to huge sums of money which it needs to run, further making it easier for the federal government to become the end all be all. The federal reserve does something similar as well.

The 17th amendment might be the most devestating to the Constitutional system. Used to be, Senators were elected by the state legistlatures and not directly by the people. This was done to tie the federal government down and make it work for the states. It was a deliberate check and balance that was essential to maintaing a good healthy give and take between the different levels of government.

When we passed the 17th amendment, way back in 1913, it allowed Senators to now be elected directly by vote of the People. By doing this it allowed the federal government to make an end-run around the states. The states were made almost irrelevant. The Senate used to cater to the individual states concerns because Senators were elected by state representatives.

Being a democrat, you probably hear the last one with a little surprise. Isn't more direct democracy good? is what you are no doubt thinking.

The answer is yes, democracy is good. But the USA is such a large country, with a huge population, the power exercised by 1 man and 1 vote amongst all the other american voters is negligible. You can still make a difference at the state level because it is a smaller electorate.
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BTW, you seem to think that Coleman tried to steal the election and only republicans steal elections. This is absurd. Everyone tries to steal elections when they are only decided by a few hundred votes. Al Gore in 2000 hired the best attorneys he could and he made some ridiculous legal challenges all designed to benefit himself as well.

You need to move past the shallow idea that democrats are right and republicans are wrong. The truth is democrats and republicans are the same exact thing - statists. The only difference between the GOP and democrats come down to meaningless issues designed to light fires in their respective political bases, stupid stuff like gay marriage.

The economic and war policies of Bush and Obama are almost identical.

Now if you really are a leftist, thats fine. Great even. But you arent going about this the right way. With the federal government you are feeding into a behemoth buerocracy which will never truly be able to effectivly adminster programs to help the poor or down or bring justice to the people.

But if you, along with me, fought for state's rights you could then have a much better and more individually tailored agenda in your own state. I think you may be from New York.

You want single payer health care? Gay rights? Large social safety nets for the poor? I would have no problem with the people of the state of New York undertaking that burden in their own state.

Just dont make a guy in Alabama pay for your health care.

By pushing states rights, we can have 50 different places with 50 different types of government. That means if you dont like something about how the government is run, you have a real choice to move to a state more in line with your beliefs. Choice. Isnt that great?

So in Alabama we can have conservative government, and in New York, it can be run by liberals. What is wrong with that?

[3dkicker]

I stayed out of this but had to jump in, probably a little late, but the information about Hitler in the first post is off. By a lot especially about his relationship with his parents "I became very close to my mother because my father showed little interest in me. Then my mother died at an early age from cancer." is wrong. And I can continue with many more incorrect "facts".

If you want to see an interesting history on Hitler's life, actually the book is more about his father, then read Norman Mailer's A Castle in the Forest. Some of you may recognize his name since he's won a couple Pulitzer's. Although the book is "fiction" it is based on factual information.

[Rebbasser]

Wow-I didn't mean to create such a firestorm, just having a little fun.

It is interesting that so many immediately come to the conclusion they do. It could be any political leader, but only one comes to mind. Why is that? And because of who it is that comes to mind it is now racist? Give me a freaking break.

[flfireman]

If Rebbasser is a racist, I guess I am too. Let's see how this came about. Simple post, I too came to the same conclusion as everyone else. A new member with an obvious need to vent and spit out all his political knowledge and opinions,who in turn, argues politics with a political science major? Nope, not qualified to do it. Respond to a political thread with personal opinions vs. facts? Nope, not going to happen. Insult long time members of this board with hit and miss facts and name calling? Nope, not gonna happen. So, in closing. Everyone has an opinion, we are allowed to. Yet, Sometimes opinions are best kept to yourself.
I read probably every post on here, why do some people feel that if a post is against their beliefs that they have to respond or act as if it was sent directly to them. I can picture a few of these people turning bright red, cursing and slamming the keys of the computer trying to type a reply. Facts are facts, opinions are opinions. In the long run all of them can be spun one way or another. If you are going to argue facts, have a supporting document to back your argument. Some on here do that really well, in fact I believe that person is a political science major.

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by flfireman

If Rebbasser is a racist, I guess I am too. Let's see how this came about. Simple post, I too came to the same conclusion as everyone else. A new member with an obvious need to vent and spit out all his political knowledge and opinions,who in turn, argues politics with a political science major? Nope, not qualified to do it. Respond to a political thread with personal opinions vs. facts? Nope, not going to happen. Insult long time members of this board with hit and miss facts and name calling? Nope, not gonna happen. So, in closing. Everyone has an opinion, we are allowed to. Yet, Sometimes opinions are best kept to yourself.
I read probably every post on here, why do some people feel that if a post is against their beliefs that they have to respond or act as if it was sent directly to them. I can picture a few of these people turning bright red, cursing and slamming the keys of the computer trying to type a reply. Facts are facts, opinions are opinions. In the long run all of them can be spun one way or another. If you are going to argue facts, have a supporting document to back your argument. Some on here do that really well, in fact I believe that person is a political science major.

Very well said.

[bassFishingWNY]

WTL::

From what I see Alabama is a poor state, so what dose it do with the poor black, let them die? Just asking!
Yep, I from NY, not NYC! Around 30 miles from Buffalo, NY. Lake Erie has some of the best bass fishing in America!
If Alabama want to be Conservative, I see nothing wrong with that, same as NYS is liberal. But when the federal Government wants to push what they want, it's wrong.
I wont argue with you, but I think we should go with every vote counts, not by State senators pick the winner of a president election by the party they are in. I know, our for-fathers put that in so the low population states had a say. But it has been abused, big time!

Same as the Supreme Court pick. The republican wanted up, down vote on Bush's picks, even wanted to go nuke option, no filibuster. Now it's deffernt, they are thinking about filibustering Obama's pick. No up-down vote!
Dose that smell like "I can do it, and you can't"?
Like I say, i wont argue with you, chances are you know more then me, I just see things I don't like, and will speak up when I see them!

As for Hitler, he fought in WW1, and was wounded, I think he lost his sight for a year, Bush went AWOL. And YES, they set up Dan Rather, and he took the bait!

As far as 9/11, the Cheney team B wanted to go into Iraq, and take out Saddam. But they could have never be getting the vote from Congress. So 9/11 gave them what they needed! Iraq ties with OBL, and the Congress fell for it! There is more to 9/11 then we will ever know! I think one Congress woman said the same thing, she is no longer in Congress!!

If you think killing over 3000 American troops, and over 100,000 Iraqis was worth taking out Saddam, I feel sorry for you!

[Cavs1123]

its hitler! i am a WINNER!!!!

[WTL]

You ask about poor blacks in the state of alabama. Allow me to quote Frederick Douglass.

The American people have always been anxious to know what they shall do with us... I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! ... And if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone! ... your interference is doing him positive injury.

The truth is with a free market, the blacks need no other help. You can go anywhere in this state and see blacks who have raised themselves up. They are men and women no different than any other and to lord over them like children is one of the prime injuries and injustices ever committed against a race.

If we move past race, if we no longer give it relevance, if we just start to not care - the last vestiges of racism will end. The bigger a deal you make it the bigger a deal it remains. They are far too able to not end up getting what they deserve - justice, freedom and opportunity.

You say

But when the federal Government wants to push what they want, it's wrong.

Surely you realize that the federal government pushes the entire system of governance in America? Are you admitting to me here that you agree with me? That the Federal government should be cut out of state sovereignty?

The reason for election of Senators by state legislatures was it presented a strong check on the federal government. It ensured that the states would have their own power bases.
Look at the current crop of senators. They are really just super congressmen. They are national figures. They are bought and paid for by national corporations that exist outside of their states. They in reality maintain little connection with the states, or their constituencies, because money in elections is what wins.

We passed McCain-Feingold, which was unconstitutional, as a vain attempt to get money out of politics. The reason we cant get money out of politics is because it is intrinsically a part of how politicians get elected. But if state legislatures were elect the Senate, then the amount of money needed to campaign to state legislatures would be minimal, correct?

There has even been talk that the Supreme court nominations would be less political if we repealed the 17th. A lot of times when Senators filibuster a political appointment, its to make them look good to their base back home.

I really dont disagree too much with you on Iraq.

[bamabassman]

ok, i have ot ask something here. are you , being from the state of new york, saying that we, here in the state of alabama, are a poor state? i have to say NO. loud and clearly AGAIN NO! we are a proud state. a state that is continuely bombarded with this constant racist, kkk, BULL CRAP! i have read ost every post here as well. and although i am not a college graduate (only cause i didn't finish, started, didn't finish). and i am not as knowledgeable as wtl. but i ahve to say this.....there was a post earlier form someone (toolazy to look up who) that said that we are always thought of cause of the civil war. i am so dam tired of the folks from other places that are not in the south thinkg all of us "southern folks" are bigots, racists and anti this and anti that. i usually keep out of these things cause i can't quote texts and such. i have lived in every state in the south and texas as well. they are considered southern too in some places. also, i have been to other states as well. and the FIRST thing i am asked is "are you in the KKK?" do ya'll still hang blacks down there? all this is mostly from the movies now a days. and i am here to tell you that there are MORE racists in the northern states, new york included, than here in the south. i have asked this before, have oyu ever heard of ANYONE retireing to the north? HARDLY NEVER! stop basing your thoughts on us from the past man. get onwtih it. we are tired of having this rammed down our throats. like wtl said, move past race. if i could do one thing, it would be to remove the lines on an application form that states wheather a person is a cetrain color or race or ethnic orgin. and whether they are a male or female. that makes the imployer look at their job history and ablilty to do the job they are applying for. i used to hire and fire engineers and such. and if you see an aplication form a person, it states their race, relogion, and whether they are male or female. GET RID OF THIS! look at their qualifications only! it doesn't matter if they are red, yellow, black or white or purple with blue polka dots can they do the job or not?

sorry, just tired of this kind of crap.


and another thing.... never mind. i am so mad about this i can't think straight anymore.

[bassFishingWNY]

I was not bashing the south. The comment I made about Alabama, was from hurricane Katrina that devastated New Orleans. Bush didn’t much care, and I seen on TV, the poor on roof tops waiting for help. Then he had the balls to go on TV, and say “GREAT JOB Brownie“! Blame it on the democrat governor. That’s what I was referring to, not just the poor black.

Around 30 years ago, or longer, my wife, and me went to Florida, on the way home in SC, or NC the car broke down. Being a back yard mechanic, I know what was wrong, but it was a Sunday, nothing open. A black man stopped , and ask what was wrong, and I told him. He said he worked in a auto parts store cleaning up. Took me to town, opened the store up, and sold me the part (have no idea if he pocketed the money, bad thing to say). Anyway, fixed the car, and was on my way home. I have nothing ageist the black, I’ll stick up for them come hell, or high water, and I‘m white.

One of my hero’s is Mohammed Ali, AKA Cashes Clay. Not just because he was a great fighter, but for the balls to refuse the draft! He said, “You want me to go to another Country, and kill so they have freedom, but you won’t give the blacks in this Country freedom”!

We came a long way, but there is still a lot of racism in this Country. One being the racism of Asian. Did you know with the Military Commissions act, if your son, or daughter dated a Asian, you could be picked up, and held indefinitely! How would you like that?

I rattle on too much, I should just stop reading these posts, but I care for my Country, and the people that live in it, being black, white, red, yellow, what ever color!

[brushhog]

I'm not sure where to jump in on this, I' just deleted something that took me 20 minutes to write. Those of you who have detected my leanings may know where I was going...

Quick point about constitutional erosion, again I'm sure WTL could conduct a class... I would suggest we look to the 50's for the beginning of that.. Not the last 8 years alone.

Finally, Free speech and open debate (think Lincoln v. Douglas not that charade of debate we have now) as exhibited in this thread and all around this forum are what make this country unique...


By the way, WTL, that was a fine discourse and I was impressed with your ability to hold your tongue - Ike and Alexander the Great was a nice piece of "forensic" strategy
At the risk of bringing down the firestorm, I can see where NW was trying to go, but he overextended himself with the racist comment and taking a shot at the venerable REB!

Finally, gentleman thank you for the interesting reading and spirited discourse!

[bamabassman]

ok, now ya got me wanting to talk about hurricanes. now i used to live in south bama. 30 miles north of Gulf Shores. had a DIRECT hit from ivan the terrible. now listen and read closely, Katrina didn't do any more damage than ivan. i WAS THERE. for BOTH of them. i am so sick and tired of hearing about katrina. YES it was bad, YES the government acted SLOWLY. BUT, it wasn't bush's fault. the mayor of new orleans had 72 HOURS TO GET THE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE PAL. 72 hours! 500 BUSES AVALIABLE. NOW YOU TELL ME IT WAS THE PRESIDENTS FAULT. I dare YOU. Waveland Mississippi was wiped of the face of the map. nothing was left. and all i hear is poor ol new orleans. SICK to death of it. blame the mayor, governer and state officials for the disaster of new orleans. if they had done what they were supposed to do, everyone would have gotten out that WANTED out. having lived in the coastal area of bama, i have seen IDIOTS that want to "ride" and party out a hurricane. only to see stupidity. yes most are locals. drunken fools. i can go on and on about katrina. so don't go where you know very little except from what you have seen on tv and newspapers. ask for the truth from locals. then you will hear the REAL story.

[nofearengineer]

Yeah...hurricanes aren't like tornadoes...they don't just spring up out of nowhere. People in New Orleans had DAYS to get out of there. If worst came to worst, they could have WALKED. They actually had that much time. But instead, they chose to be beggars, standing around and waiting for Daddy to come save them. Most of the people caught with their pants down were already on the government dole anyway, so it was really consistent with their lifestyle.

And don't even get me started on building a major city below sea level. If I gave you 200 billion dollars to go build me a city, and you came back to me with a swamp that flooded every year and was below sea level right next to the ocean, I'd laugh in your face. To any of our members who might live in New Orleans, sorry if this offends you, but people have no right to expect and even demand my help and tax dollars when they willingly live in a danger zone. I feel the exact same way about the people who live in the Malibu hills with their wildfires every year. You wanna live in the crosshairs? Live with the consequences. That whole town oughtta be moved inland, and the delta turned back into a wetland.

Grrrrrrrrr.

[bamabassman]

alright, had to get off line so that i could calm down a bit.
listen, i am going to say that i am sorry for coming down so hard on you about hurricanes. you aren't by any means stupid or nothing. and i am sorry for implying that.
you are just misinformed my friend. VERY misinformed.
bush was waiting for the mayor to sign off around a week before the hurricane katrina hit. the"mayor" of new orleans did not want to sign the bill letting the federal government send troops or supplies for aid thinking that the city could handle it. katrina did NOT hit new orleans directly. it went to the east of the city. the levies broke from the rains that came. and the flooding that occured. the reason the levies broke was because they were built back in the 20's and 30's. under F D R. and they were not built for class 5 hurricanes. class 3 hurricane only. now back in the 80's i think it was, the corps of engineers told new orleans that it cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 billion dollars to get them class 5 ready, the city refused. so there is the problem, and after the katrina disaster. they wanted to restore the levies to class 5. BUT the city refused again. cause it would cost in the hundreds of billions. now THERE is the problem. lives were lost cause of politics. money is being spent on other things than saving a few lives right? my wife was born and raised in mobile alabama. she went through more hurricanes than i have (17 yrs, 11 hurricanes). she went through fredrick, a class 5. had to endure over 6 weeks of no water, power, nothing. and then katrina came along. they only went through a couple of weeks of this. now who had it worse? ivan the terrible was rough, again a class 5, and we went through roughly around 2 weeks of no power. we were on well water, so no power, no water. no lights, nothing. i sat on my front poarch with a rifle and shotgun all night. even though FEMA told us our house was uninhabitalable. we stayed anyway. and yes i ran off a few looters. we were in a country area too. 10 acres, at the end of a dirt road. you could only see our roof top from the main road. if you came down our drive (1/8 mile long), you were either family or neighbor, or selling something. or during a hurricane, stealing something.
after the hurricane, it took longer for the insurance companies to settle claims than it took for the power to come on. took us 6 weeks. and then it wasn't fair, i went through 3 adjusters. just to get my house restored. i can tell you a long story about that,lol. but living in the northern state of new york, you understand the same thing dealing with snowstorms and such. same thing goes on down there.
back to bush and katrina. everyone wanted his head on a platter now that i look back. and before you say i am pro bush, don't. yes i voted for him. but he, like each and every president we have had did things that not everone agreed with. the war is one. i don't agree with it completly. some of it yes, some of it no. but i did, and always will support our troops over there. if the troops say we should be ther, then we should be there i ain't gonna believe ANY politician on war maters......NEVER! the soldiers know the truth.
sorry got off track again. katrina, so it wouldn't have mattered if bush sent in help or not in my opion, the tv, newspapers and public would have said it wasn't enough. i can go on and on. but i am tired of this subject. i hate politics with a passion. we have absolutly NO ONE in this country that is a good enough LEADER to run this country. too many hands in the money pot. they care nothing about the people anymore. just themselves.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by bassFishingWNY

I care for my Country, and the people that live in it, being black, white, red, yellow, what ever color!

So do I. So does, I think, everyone.

__________________________________________________ __


Brushhog, I could see where NW was trying to say the comparison of Obama to Hitler was a bit unfair. He somehow missed how I mentioned that way back in the 3rd post of this thread, and then got all wound up and started accusing people of racism.

I was surprised when he argued that Alexander wasnt so bad. The natives used to say he had devil horns.

The Constitution and the system has been eroding for a long long time. Its the natural scheme of things for people to trade liberty for security, even President John Adams signed the alien and sedition acts.

The big events were the Civil War - which had to be fought, but married good concepts (emancipation) with bad (a solid and centralized Union with no right to secede)

The 16th and 17th amendments were also devastating.

But now, things have deteriorated the point where the Constitution is no longer paid attention to unless it actually agrees with you.

[swimbaitkid]

I'm too lazy to read all of that but whats the arguement about?

[Bassboss]

Originally Posted by swimbaitkid

I'm too lazy to read all of that but whats the arguement about?

In short; Racism! WTG WTL, and Bama!

[bamabassman]

swimbait and boss...READ THE ENTIRE THREAD OK? then ask questions. i did and will again say i am sorry for jumping so hard on the guy. i am just tired of negative things being thought of about the south from folks that truly don't know the "inside" story so to speak. reading things and listening to people are the ONLY way to learn.

[brushhog]

Originally Posted by WTL

So do I. So does, I think, everyone.

__________________________________________________ __


I was surprised when he argued that Alexander wasnt so bad. The natives used to say he had devil horns.

The Constitution and the system has been eroding for a long long time. Its the natural scheme of things for people to trade liberty for security, even President John Adams signed the alien and sedition acts.


The 16th and 17th amendments were also devastating.

But now, things have deteriorated the point where the Constitution is no longer paid attention to unless it actually agrees with you.

The brilliance of Alexander the Great was matched only by his cruelty, easily comparable to some of the most cruel leaders of all time. This is well documented and irrefutable.

The exchange of liberty for security is an interesting point... If that exchange were to happen suddenly I believe it would cause full scale rebellion. It is the slow pace of that erosion, (ie your point about the roots of the erosion being the origins of the alien/sedition acts) is what makes it so insidious and so frustrating for those of us who recognize it.

Now just so you don't think I am always going to agree with you extreme libertarian views , I'm not sure I see your issue with direct election to the senate?? And the 16th amendment, i looked them up, is Federal income tax. I would say that the intent and letter of the 16th amendment is understandable. It is the bastardization of the intent that erodes liberty.

The constitution is, unfortunately, viewed as a quaint historical document or a document of convenience! I am not so quick to Condemn Obama as some may be, but I am intersted in where he will go on many constitutionally driven issues, he has on occassion professed his wish to adhere to its intent!

Whoo.. that was a lot of typin'

[Cavs1123]

im a winner!!!

[Cavs1123]

its hitler

[Cavs1123]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha