firing JoePa

[joedog]

I knew I should have stayed out of this!
"do on to others as you would have them do on to you"
That sums up morality, in my backwards thinking anyway.

Oh and the legal, moral idea was seperate from the "if it were mine..." idea.
I'm not judging anyone and yes my actions would be morally wrong. But one may be able to argue that saving a child from harm no matter what the action taken or the consequences of said action was, is the morally right thing to do.
Anyway I truely do respect everyones beliefs or at least the right to have those beliefs and I will be the first one to say, I'm probably wrong.

But if it was my kid.......
Good fishing this weekend to all of you!

[joedog]

Ok last post at this thread.WTL I have to ask.
The house next door to you is a meth lab. Your nieghbor on the other side of the meth lab sees them making meth so he goes to the head of the nieghborhood watch group and tells them. He dosn't tell any other nieghbors or the police and not even you. Nieghborhood watch now says they are taking care of everything but you've seen no arrests the same people are still coming and going from said lab and who knows, maybe just maybe the other nieghbor was wrong so would you be satisfied everything was handled with everyones safty first in mind?
Please I'm not saying any of your ideas are wrong, I'm just curious. Would you be satisfied and maybe if people were more pro-active and less politically correct there would have been one victim and not nine.
Again I'm probably wrong but if it were my kid......

[1/4 stick]

I'm really not sure what I think should happen to the coach and the school officials that didn't report it to the cops. Part of me, the father in me, says hang em and hang em high. But then the dept. head in me thinks what I'd do if one of my employees came to me with this and no proof. So I can't really say.

But out of all of them, the one thing I can't get out of my head. The person that said he saw this take place. I assume he was of adult age. How the heck does a grown man walk up on that and not stop it? Even as a young man, wet behind the ears and scarred to death, my instinct would have been to pounce hard on the person raping that child and not stop hitting until one of us wasn't moving.

Perhaps that's what the coach and the college staff was thinking. Not saying they shouldn't have reported it anyway, but still can't get the fact that a man witnessed that and did nothing to stop it, but was brave enough to report it to the coach. It just don't add up to me.

[pro reel]

I know that several of you hold Mr paterno in high esteem. It seems he has been a good coach for a long time and was very respected. I understand how that can influence peoples thoughts. We like to think that good people are always good and always do the right thing. I however know that thats not how things work. When it comes right down to it, it is very hard to do the right thing all the time. It is much much harder to do the right thing when doing what you know is right might or probably will have serious repercusions on you or an institution that you are part of. I'm sure that Mcreary when he saw what he saw knew that he should have done something and then at least should have called the police, he didn't though, he went to his dad. Why? he was 28 and thats old enough to know what he should have done. the reason, fear. fear of what might happen to him in the way of repurcusions for putting a spotlight on the institution that this happened at. So he goes to Paterno, what does paterno do? He knows that his moral duty to society would be to tell mcreary to go to the police or do so himself or offer to go to the police with him. He evidently didn't do that, instead he went to his superior, why? Probably for the same reasons, fear. Fear of destroying a mans reputation, fear of bringing shame to Penn ST. Fear, Fear, Fear, thats why people don't always do whats right when they are put in a tight spot. Now what did the supoeriors do, they talked to sandusky and scolded him for being a bad boy and told him not to do that again and don'tbring any more kids to the school. Basically, in a nut shell, they covered it up to protect the reputation of the program. Now, why after paterno and Mcreary saw that nothing was done, didn't they then go to the police? fear! They moght have hoped that the superiors would do the right thing, but when they didn't they still had the oportunity to do it themselves. They still didn't, instead they decided to ignore it and probably hoped that it wouldn't happen again and were probably glad to wash thier hands of the whole mess. Thsi isn't isolated to Penn State. This happens somewhere every single day. People see things and know that they should do something or reprt something, but they don't because it might affect them or an institution that they work for or belong to. The Catholic Church as seen more than it's fair share of perverts banging little boys. We all know that has not been handled any better than Penn State did. I am quite sure that most if not all of the priests, bishops, and cardinals that saw or knew of or had a report of abuse were very good men who despised the abuse that they knew of, but when they should have called the police, they didn't. Why, fear, thats why. fear that reporting child abuse by fellow preists would look very bad on the church so they swept it under the rug and transfered the bad priests to other parish's and maybe gave them a good talking to or counseling about thier problem and then told them not to do it again.
In closing, I understand that legaly, maybe all paterno needed to do when he was told about the abuse was to report it to his superior. Thats not enough for me. I don't want him burned at a stake or anything like that, but I do think that he deserves to be fired because he chose to protect the reputation of Penn State and to ignore what should have been his moral duty when he had an opurtunity to protect innocent children, he chose the easy way out. If I was the head of penn State, I would not want anyone working for me that chose the easy way out instead of doing what was right. I also think that Mcreary should go too. he was a grown adult when he saw the abuse and instead of calling the cops, he went to his dad and then to Joe to try and see what they thought was the best thing to do instead of just doing what he know he should have done. sadly, he may be protected by wistle blower laws for reporting it, even though he didn't report it to everyone that he should have.

[bassboogieman]

So how do you know what anyone, much less Paterno, was thinking? Do a Vulcan mindmeld or something? All that is conjecture, you cannot possibly KNOW what anyone else's thoughts or motivations were, you can only assume, using what you do know and that is how you would have proceeded. As well as "not enough for you" indicates that you, as well as others, are applying your personal standards to others - those of us of a more rational mind set know that does not work. Not everyone holds the same values, committment or responsibilies, even morals, as anyone else. Also, not everyone that witnesses an action, sees it in the same light. Interpertation is personal, but you can certainly form opinions based on other's reports, but without first person knowledge, you are only guessing. And bashing someone, based on your best guess - isn't right.

Do you know what McQueery was thinking? His motavations? He's still coaching, got rid of a lot of individuals that were in line ahead of him. He may even be immune from disiplinary action (especally termination) under the "whistle blower" act. WTF is fair about that - he's the guy with first person knowledge of the accusations, and failed miserably with his reporting his observations (wether real or imagined) to the proper authorities.

All we know is based on media reports, and we all know how concerned the media is with reporting ALL the facts. They ALWAYS get it right. NEVER spin or slant a tidbit to make a headline. All we have are allegations, horrendous ones certainly, but no proof. If any proof that Paterno acted improperly comes out or he's charged with a violation of the law, and found guilty, PSU will get some of the vindication it needs. If not, I predict Paterno gets millions from a Civil Suit, either by judgement against PSU and their actions or by settlement. And I'm also betting on a settlement rather than PSU subjecting themselves to more scrutiny by going to trial.

I'm done, the rest of you can continue casting your stones, mine are still in a pile waiting for some tangible proof.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by joedog

But one may be able to argue that saving a child from harm no matter what the action taken or the consequences of said action was, is the morally right thing to do.

Thats fair. But Paterno did not do nothing. He actually notified the correct people. Yes, in hindsight he could have done more, but the people he notified, all the responsibility was on them and Paterno knew that. He relied on them. Morally, I find it hard to be too hard on Paterno, given these facts.

We may find out that Paterno is dispicable, but right now we are just nailing him with benefit of hindsight, because Paterno trusted the wrong people to do their jobs.

As for the meth lab example, I once had a crack house move right next door. We notified the cops and the owner of the rental house, a politician, ourselves. Had a neighbor told an HOA (which did not exist in that neighborhood, but had it existed) I would not have blamed them for inaction. I really think your example is weaker than the PSU case for deriving a principle.

[WTL]

Pro reel, we have absolutely no idea whether Paterno told McQuery to go to the cops. None. We don't even know what McQuery told Paterno, exactly. Without knowing those facts, our moral judgment is premature. That is an immutable fact.

You have to know the facts of a case to make a judgment. Without those essential facts, you are pissing in the wind.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

But out of all of them, the one thing I can't get out of my head. The person that said he saw this take place. I assume he was of adult age. How the heck does a grown man walk up on that and not stop it? Even as a young man, wet behind the ears and scarred to death, my instinct would have been to pounce hard on the person raping that child and not stop hitting until one of us wasn't moving.

Perhaps that's what the coach and the college staff was thinking.

Exactly. The GA wasn't taking it to the cops. Paterno implied in his statement that the GA didn't explain actually what he saw.

So a GA comes to you, says he sees an incident of a very questionable nature, involving a former friend, and a kid. He says he isn't taking it to the cops, he isnt telling you exactly what he saw. If he aint taking it to the cops first, what authority do you have, except to report it to your superiors?

This could very easily be all the GAs fault. Or all the superiors fault. Or a mix of everyones fault. Somebody is probably lying, covering their ***. Who is it? To determine whose fault, we need EVIDENCE. FACTS. CONTEXT.

You simply cannot say without those things.

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by WTL

Exactly. The GA wasn't taking it to the cops. Paterno implied in his statement that the GA didn't explain actually what he saw.

So a GA comes to you, says he sees an incident of a very questionable nature, involving a former friend, and a kid. He says he isn't taking it to the cops, he isnt telling you exactly what he saw. If he aint taking it to the cops first, what authority do you have, except to report it to your superiors?

This could very easily be all the GAs fault. Or all the superiors fault. Or a mix of everyones fault. Somebody is probably lying, covering their ***. Who is it? To determine whose fault, we need EVIDENCE. FACTS. CONTEXT.

You simply cannot say without those things.

So Paterno makes a staement that mcreary didn't fully explain what he saw and because paterno says this you belive him? Far to convienent for me. ranks right up there with foggy memory syndrom. Seems strange to me that someone would believe that staement from Joe, but seems to think that the statements of several others might be lies.

The thing is, the original question is what did we think about Joe getting fired. Several of us have said that we feel it was justified given what we have heard and read. I still feel that it was justified given that my common sense tells me he knew about this and should have reported it to police, not admin. If you have a report that someone saw a fellow emplyee swipe some office supplies, thats something you report to admin. If you have a report that someone saw an employee molest a young boy in the office shower, thats something that needs to be reported to police.
I believe that paterno went along with the decision of his superiors to sweep it under the table because thats what they all thought would be best for the school. If thats true, then everyone that was part of that should be gone. Evidently the school officials have enough evidence to suport that that they felt that they had to fire him imediatly instead of allowing him to retire at the end of the season as he hoped to do. I don't think they would have done that without some hard facts.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WTL

So why does he disgust you, because he took it to the wrong police? Or the wrong person? Thats a harsh standard. He took it to who he was supposed to.

He disgusts me because I believe he knew about this happening and did the bare minimum that he was legally obligated to do just to keep himself and his program out of trouble. I think he also did everything he could do to make this go away. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it, whether you all agree with it or not.

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

Do you know what McQueery was thinking? His motavations? He's still coaching, got rid of a lot of individuals that were in line ahead of him. He may even be immune from disiplinary action (especally termination) under the "whistle blower" act. WTF is fair about that - he's the guy with first person knowledge of the accusations, and failed miserably with his reporting his observations (wether real or imagined) to the proper authorities.

It doesn't look like this is the case at all now. As of lastnight McQueery is not longer coaching at or even a part of Penn State.

Originally Posted by pro reel

The thing is, the original question is what did we think about Joe getting fired. Several of us have said that we feel it was justified given what we have heard and read. I still feel that it was justified given that my common sense tells me he knew about this and should have reported it to police, not admin. If you have a report that someone saw a fellow emplyee swipe some office supplies, thats something you report to admin. If you have a report that someone saw an employee molest a young boy in the office shower, thats something that needs to be reported to police.
I believe that paterno went along with the decision of his superiors to sweep it under the table because thats what they all thought would be best for the school. If thats true, then everyone that was part of that should be gone. Evidently the school officials have enough evidence to suport that that they felt that they had to fire him imediatly instead of allowing him to retire at the end of the season as he hoped to do. I don't think they would have done that without some hard facts.

This is pretty much what I have been trying to say all along, I just never was able to put it in words this way. Our legal system is full of loopholes and just because he did what he was legally obligated to do doesn't mean that he did what he could have done to right the ship. He was obligated to tell the next person up the ladder but I don't think he was required to stop there if he didn't get the results he liked. He wanted this to go away quietly so his program didn't suffer. I love college football as much as the next guy but I will be the first to tell you that somethings are more important than college sports, and child molesting is one of those things.

Firing Joe Paterno was the only logical thing that Penn State could possibly do to save face. Imagine if they let him finish the season and then ride off into the sunset like a hero. Then how would every parent of a recruit look at the school from now on? It would certainly make it tough for them to recruit players and sell their parents on the idea that their kids will be taken care of. Yes Paterno would no longer be there if he retired but it also would suggest that the school was tollerant of what went on and no parent in their right mind would be comfortable with sending their kids their regardless of who was running the program because you could only assume that there is a chance the next coach would be running the same type of ship. By firing Paterno it sends the message that Penn State won't tollerate this type of thing and that was the only way they could salvage any kind of good reputation. Was Paterno the whipping boy for something that he didn't know was going on? Obviously a few members here believe so, and that's ok. But I believe that a guy who is as Powerful as Paterno was knew everything that went on within his program and was more worried about protecting his program than he was worried about protecting these kids.

[nofearengineer]

I really wish people would stop putting words in my mouth.

I don't believe Paterno is innocent. I also don't believe he's guilty. Belief has nothing to do with it. I DON'T KNOW which he is. Because no proof has been presented. If you're ever in trouble with the law, I sure hope you don't get convicted by a bunch of opinions.

I hate to say this, but you should all watch the last South Park episode...surprisingly relevant. The premise was that aliens were at the first Thanksgiving. Put forth as "proof" was that there was not one single bit of historical evidence that they weren't there. Get the point? "It's possible" serves as proof these days for some.

You guys are all basing your opinion on hearsay. And incorrectly saying that my lack of an opinion one way or the other means I think he's innocent.

Fact: They ended a 40+ year career over something that may or may not have happened.

Cause: fear of villagers wielding torches and pitchforks storming the castle, calling for Paterno's head.

[WTL]

Lets take a break from this situation.
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Look at it like this,. You have a person who is accused of doing something immoral. Whether or not he necessarily did that something immoral is not known, because not all the facts are known.


Is it right to fill in the gaps with facts that we do not yet know, because they seem possible? I just think its reckless to judge someone morally when there exists a good possibility that more will come out to clarify the moral situation. That is my opinion.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WTL

Lets take a break from this situation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look at it like this,. You have a person who is accused of doing something immoral. Whether or not he necessarily did that something immoral is not known, because not all the facts are known.


Is it right to fill in the gaps with facts that we do not yet know, because they seem possible? I just think its reckless to judge someone morally when there exists a good possibility that more will come out to clarify the moral situation. That is my opinion.

That's fair enough. I respect your opinion whether I agree with it or not, just as I would want you to respect mine whether you agree with it or not. I see where you are coming from and I can't say that I totally disagree with you. However the facts that we do know erase enough doubt about what we don't know that I feel safe in saying that Joe Paterno had a hand in allowing this to continue, but that is my opinion.

I agree that taking a break from the situation might be a good idea because my arms are getting tired from beating this dead horse lol.

[Tavery5]

Does anyone remember the Duke Lacrosse Scandal? Did it end up like you thought it would?

[pro reel]

Tony, I do remember the duke scandal. I also could probably look up several other false alegation cases. I said something to that efect in an earlier post. I am not of the opinion that this is or was started by false aleagations though and there is well documented evidence to prove that. sandusky was not the target of one lone or isolated group. sandusky was abusing children. If you at least share the opinion that naked showering with and naked hugging of young boys who were suposed to be there to see a game with sandusky and not getting hugged in the shower were being abused, then you have to admit that at least that alegation was true as he admited it. Now that we know he was doing that, it's a very short leap to believe that the other witnesses to the same things were not just making up stories. If I thought that there was any possibility that sandusky never touched a child inapropriatly, then i would also beleive that paterno should not have been fired. Thats not the case though, sandusky did admit to the naked showereing thing and that tells me he is a pervert and it then follows that he probably was seen by the janitor that was afraid to report it back then and then again was seen by Mcreaery who reported it to paterno who reported it to his superiors but I beleive that every one of them or at least some of them all agreed to cover it up. That is just my opinion and I am not saying that anyone who disagrees with that opinion is in any way wrong. As I would hope that no one would be upset with me for having my own opinion. As for it being reckless to rush to judgement. I don't have the power to judge anyone involved in this. I can only form an educated opinion based on what I know and thats all I have done.

[Tavery5]

Ok, so did the Duke Scandal end up like you thought it would?

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by Tavery5

Ok, so did the Duke Scandal end up like you thought it would?

Yes. In that case it did end up very close to what I originally thought. At the time I actually did think that the women were not telling the truth. I also thought that about the Koby Bryant thing. And also about a few others that I can't remember names right now. The thing is, when i hear about grown women of legal age that are drinking and then willingly go to a mans room but then the next day say they were raped, I always am sceptical about that. If they were drugged, then thats rape. If they were passed out and drug into a room and raped, then thats rape. having drunk sex isn't rape. And if it is, then the guy should be able to say the same thing that they were drunk and the chick got them to do something they wouldn't have done sober. The thing is, I don't see that there is any similarity here at all. This is a lot more like what has been happening in the catholic church where the bishops know about priests that are banging little boys but don't report it to police and instead handle it themselves and cover it up.

[Tavery5]

Cool, so what's your theory on the Roswell coverup?

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by Tavery5

Cool, so what's your theory on the Roswell coverup?

They got Aliens there! I know a guy, who knows a guy, that knows a guy, that was told by a guy he saw a short off-white creature with big black eyes suning himself outside one of the hangers.

[bcklash]

Originally Posted by 1/4 stick

They got Aliens there! I know a guy, who knows a guy, that knows a guy, that was told by a guy he saw a short off-white creature with big black eyes suning himself outside one of the hangers.

OK Stick you can go back in your shed now!!!!!!

[pro reel]

I'm with Stick, There has to be aliens and I'm sure the goverment used alien technology to build stealth fighters. I also bet that KVD is an alien, not mortal can fish that good.

[kennethdaysale]

Little known fact: KVD has never been able to produce a valid birth certificate and buys all his Gold from Rosland Capital, just like Gordon Lilly. (coincidence??? you decide)

[1/4 stick]

Originally Posted by bcklash

OK Stick you can go back in your shed now!!!!!!

They say the shed causes short term memory loss and I'm begining to believe it cause I forgot to go out to the shed today.

[PAfisher76]

Whether this was handled correctly or not will play out over time. We can only hope it shines a light on how these things should be handled in future instances and that those children can have long,productive and fulfilling lives.

[Jrob78]

Paterno's name has now been removed from the Big 10 trophy. The Stagg-Paterno Championship Trophy is now the Stagg Championship Trophy.