Lost in Translation

WTL · 03-15-09, 01:54 AM

How many times has it happened where two people would be fishing together, and one would catch so many more fish than the other that the less successful angler then takes to trying to replicate the lure, technique and presentation of the guy catching all the fish?

Sometimes, this results in the 2 anglers both having good days. But also some of the time, the results dont change so much even though both anglers are now seemingly using the same lure and gear and fishing in the same spots.

The difference between a successful attempt at learning a new technique and an unsuccessful attempt can sometimes be so minute that it perceptable only to the fish. Even if the successful angler takes minutes of time to try and explain, again, exactly what he is doing the 2 anglers may never figure it out. It is not luck. When a pattern repeats itself over and over again, it is not luck.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Now take these two anglers out of the same boat. Take them away from the same location. Put one in Great Bend Kansas. Put the other in Bath New York. Or whichever towns you like. And instead of having the one who is on the fish demonstrate in real time, in person, what he is doing, have him explain it in the written word. On the internet. Few or no pictures. Two different situations, with two different lakes, populations of fish and even patterns. Two different times of day and two separate sets of weather and water conditions.

The hypothetical man in New York tries to learn the new technique that his friend in Kansas is slaying the fish on, but now the problem of translating just what the successful angler is doing has gone from the difficult task I outlined in the beginning example to something even that much more difficult to get across.

And in this lay the most pressing problem that anglers, especially young anglers, will face on this board. I don't have any real solutions to getting around this problem. It is just one of those things that exists, and if people realize it, and don't get discouraged but persist with a constant and detailed approach to learning the new techniques they will eventually overcome the problem.

A lot of people discount the information they hear on the internet because fishermen are liars. Well that is sometimes true, but even more often I bet the information is correct, as far as all parties can relay it, but the fish is just that much more selective.

Bubba_Bruiser · 03-15-09, 03:40 AM

"The difference between a successful attempt at learning a new technique and an unsuccessful attempt can sometimes be so minute that it perceptable only to the fish. Even if the successful angler takes minutes of time to try and explain, again, exactly what he is doing the 2 anglers may never figure it out. It is not luck. When a pattern repeats itself over and over again, it is not luck."
Maybe it is just body mechanics and how we move. Maybe that's why some anglers present certain techniques and presentations and produce 2 fold over others. Every professional angler is known for their strength. As you probably know your fishing buddy's strength and weakness, too. And maybe I missed the post totally off center as to what you are trying to convey.

bassackwards · 03-15-09, 07:24 AM

i see your point WTL, i am one of those up in coming fisherman. today im goen out (in the rain and cold) just to try drop shoting and the shakey head both i learned from here.
don't know how it's goen to work out but like you said if some one was there to show me the basic's that would be nice. i can't take kevin's video with me. I do thank everyone that has taken the time to try to explane things to us non pro's it does help trust me and maby in the future there will be more video's on dif techniques on this sight but for now thanks for just typen

WTL · 03-15-09, 07:36 AM

Yea, I'm not discouraging people from trying at all. I think we should just recognize the difficulties involved so you don't get too discouraged (like maybe I have in the past at times). You can still develop your skill.

It might very well be body mechanics. There is a knack. Where does that knack come from?

I would be really curious how KVD pictures his presentation in his mind. Cause I do believe there is an subconscious understanding that then translates into his presentation. And we don't relate that subconscious thing. We say "do this with your hands, twitch the bait, stop and go" - and all that is true, it is there but how is a guy stopping the lure and going?

I know I have talked about baseball a few times. When I am throwing a spinnerbait with confidence I feel like a pitcher on a mound shaking off a changeup and bringing the heat. That might actually give a guy a better idea of what I am doing than telling him I'm waking a spinnerbait. Baseball. I know the fish. I got the scouting report. I know how to make him swing. Thats the subtle thing we dont get. I dont know how else to explain that. I can only imagine the depth and layers involved in KVDs understanding, and what part of that understanding KVD explicitly is aware of and what parts he just does without thinking and without the ability to relate.

You know if I asked Steve Nash, I bet he could tell me the right form to shoot a jump shot. But that last 1% of the j, that polish on the technique is up to me. That 1% in fishing just might be magnified to making a %200 increase in your catch rate.

Love of the Sport · 03-15-09, 08:10 AM

My fishing partner is magic with worms while I on the other hand have only caught 2 fish in my life on them. he has gone into great detail to show me how he presents them and I still can't do it. Can't imagine trying to take all that in through words.

bcklash · 03-15-09, 08:36 AM

WTL, Rick Clunn ain't got nothing on you -- This is one of the best threads I've read.

GREAT THREAD

BigBassin144 · 03-15-09, 08:44 AM

WTL, you're absolutely right. I don't know how many times this has happened to my and and me. Even last year at guntersville. We were fishing the gator vine with John and my dad figured out we needed to fish slower. At one point, I was casting out and not even reeling, just letting the lure move at the speed of the boat. I couldn't slow down anymore, and my dad still caught more than John and me combined.

I also understand what you're saying about how hard it is to explain over the internet. I've found that whenever someone tells you how to fish something, weather it be me, or someone else on here, your fishing buddy in the boat next to you or KVD or some other pro on a TV show or at a seminar, you ALWAYS need to try different little things to get what the fish want. It's like finding the right rythm with a jerkbait.

BB

zooker · 03-15-09, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WTL

You know if I asked Steve Nash, I bet he could tell me the right form to shoot a jump shot. But that last 1% of the j, that polish on the technique is up to me. That 1% in fishing just might be magnified to making a 200% increase in your catch rate.

the polish and refinement is brought on by time spent fishing in a certain style using the same bait..

as average anglers your focus tends to change. i have no idea why. i spent all last winter throwing a crankbait.. thrusday i fired up the blade and realized i was pretty rusty..that will change due to me throwing it alot in the coming months..

zooker

bassintom · 03-15-09, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooker

the polish and refinement is brought on by time spent fishing in a certain style using the same bait..

Zook brings science.Good thread Billy.

bamabassman · 03-15-09, 09:10 AM

wtl, you are so correct in this thread. it is like i have said about me. i am a better coach than a player. and bb gave an excellent example rom last years get together. his dad (kingfish) caught twice as many as bb and i with the SAME techinque. but after using the technique on my own, i got towhere i could catch some. zooker said it, time on the water. there are so many different styles of using the same bait and lures that i tink you must find you own way of using that particular techinque. find you own little nitch maybe?

this is a VERY good thread wtl. threads like these make us think more and see in depth into what we are doing versus the techinque we are trying to imatate.thank you for this.

aikenyounggun · 03-15-09, 09:55 AM

yeah with some of this itrs just confidence..... goin back to the pitchers metaphor.... if the opposin team is killin my fastball (no fish in the boat) you bet im gonna throw my change up (shaky head- CONFIDENCE)

also talkin about the younger fishermen, as one i can learn stuff from this website but it is true that sometimes it is very small stuff that you have to learn.... thats why im glad my dad is such a good fishermen.... he can teach my a lot..... things that you cant describe or things i cant understand over the internet

also i realized that i could do ok in local tournaments throwin a shaky head, but to reach a pro level i got to learn every lure and get good at most of em...... i fished shaky head for a year (why did i do this, i was catchin fish, its that simple) and i regret it.... so my new years resoltuion that is hanging on my wall says "learn new bait like: jig, texas rig, spinner baits"...... this dont mean i dont know how to fish em its just i dont know everything about em...... i also dont have confidence in them (or at least not a lot)

great post WTL.......

Jim80 · 03-15-09, 10:40 AM

Wtl good thread man , just like everything that is worth achieving practice is the main component in being good at any given thing . You can read and discuss tactics and new methods of fishing but in the end there is no replacing time on the water . Another thing is the confidence "clause" in fishing, you may not be confident in a bait or technique but by no means should that keep you from learning to use one , like everything else confidence will come with practice .

Jim

jooleyen · 03-15-09, 12:16 PM

Good post and thoughts. I was thinking what Zooker and others said.

Confidence and fishing the bait A LOT in many types of conditions. After even a little while, you get a feel for what you're doing and you subconsciously present the bait in a certain fashion in relation to the conditions. Now, this can be refined to a great extent, but this is the basic idea.

You probably can't just copy someone right off the bat, but if you keep trying, you find little things that increase your catch rate.

OrygunBasser · 03-15-09, 12:48 PM

This is a great thread!

My take is that bass fishing presentations are sooooooo much of a mind game. It boils down to a confidence factor as I see it. For instance, a couple years ago on Clear Lake California I was fishing with an old friend that was killing them on a certain spinnerbait. I didn't have one just like it and it was his only one. I had it in my mind that it was the bait and was not catching my share of fish because I didn't expect to. I started to think about it and decided that I would watch the way he presented the bait for about five minutes. I then matched the color as close as I could and started fishing differently and thinking in my mind that I was going to catch a fish on every cast. Soon I was catching almost as many as him. We then moved to another spot off of a point, I picked up a dropshot (A strong point of mine) with a bait that he had nerver seen and almost imeadiatly caught a fish, and then another, and then another all back to back 3-4#ers. He actually got so frustrated that he picked up and went to another spot. He lost all confidence in himself. Conditioning your mind that there is a fish watching your lure at every seconn it is in the water is very important. Way back when I started fishing a few small tournaments I was fishing along and a boat went by, my line was out and I turned to watch the boat. My older partner, without looking at me said, "Ya gonna fish or watch boats all day"????

My take may not fit every senario, but it fills a lot of them!

MississippiBoy · 03-15-09, 04:00 PM

Good thoughts, everybody. It's very much a mind game out there.
Everybody say it with me...

Oooooooommmmmmmmmmmm..........

bingham · 03-15-09, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WTL

How many times has it happened where two people would be fishing together, and one would catch so many more fish than the other that the less successful angler then takes to trying to replicate the lure, technique and presentation of the guy catching all the fish?

Sometimes, this results in the 2 anglers both having good days. But also some of the time, the results dont change so much even though both anglers are now seemingly using the same lure and gear and fishing in the same spots.

The difference between a successful attempt at learning a new technique and an unsuccessful attempt can sometimes be so minute that it perceptable only to the fish. Even if the successful angler takes minutes of time to try and explain, again, exactly what he is doing the 2 anglers may never figure it out. It is not luck. When a pattern repeats itself over and over again, it is not luck.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Now take these two anglers out of the same boat. Take them away from the same location. Put one in Great Bend Kansas. Put the other in Bath New York. Or whichever towns you like. And instead of having the one who is on the fish demonstrate in real time, in person, what he is doing, have him explain it in the written word. On the internet. Few or no pictures. Two different situations, with two different lakes, populations of fish and even patterns. Two different times of day and two separate sets of weather and water conditions.

The hypothetical man in New York tries to learn the new technique that his friend in Kansas is slaying the fish on, but now the problem of translating just what the successful angler is doing has gone from the difficult task I outlined in the beginning example to something even that much more difficult to get across.

And in this lay the most pressing problem that anglers, especially young anglers, will face on this board. I don't have any real solutions to getting around this problem. It is just one of those things that exists, and if people realize it, and don't get discouraged but persist with a constant and detailed approach to learning the new techniques they will eventually overcome the problem.

A lot of people discount the information they hear on the internet because fishermen are liars. Well that is sometimes true, but even more often I bet the information is correct, as far as all parties can relay it, but the fish is just that much more selective.

Very well said...

bamabassman · 03-15-09, 10:40 PM

this happened today to me. i took gbassman out on the lake. we were throwing the same baits. he caught 3 fish, missed 3. the biggun was 5# even. me? not even a nibble. different folks work baits differently. i was trying my best to imatate what he was doing. nuthin. but i will get it. time will prove it.

03-15-09, 01:54 AM	#1
WTL BassFishin.Com Premier Elite Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntsville, Al Posts: 7,466	Lost in Translation How many times has it happened where two people would be fishing together, and one would catch so many more fish than the other that the less successful angler then takes to trying to replicate the lure, technique and presentation of the guy catching all the fish? Sometimes, this results in the 2 anglers both having good days. But also some of the time, the results dont change so much even though both anglers are now seemingly using the same lure and gear and fishing in the same spots. The difference between a successful attempt at learning a new technique and an unsuccessful attempt can sometimes be so minute that it perceptable only to the fish. Even if the successful angler takes minutes of time to try and explain, again, exactly what he is doing the 2 anglers may never figure it out. It is not luck. When a pattern repeats itself over and over again, it is not luck. __________________________________________________ _____________ Now take these two anglers out of the same boat. Take them away from the same location. Put one in Great Bend Kansas. Put the other in Bath New York. Or whichever towns you like. And instead of having the one who is on the fish demonstrate in real time, in person, what he is doing, have him explain it in the written word. On the internet. Few or no pictures. Two different situations, with two different lakes, populations of fish and even patterns. Two different times of day and two separate sets of weather and water conditions. The hypothetical man in New York tries to learn the new technique that his friend in Kansas is slaying the fish on, but now the problem of translating just what the successful angler is doing has gone from the difficult task I outlined in the beginning example to something even that much more difficult to get across. And in this lay the most pressing problem that anglers, especially young anglers, will face on this board. I don't have any real solutions to getting around this problem. It is just one of those things that exists, and if people realize it, and don't get discouraged but persist with a constant and detailed approach to learning the new techniques they will eventually overcome the problem. A lot of people discount the information they hear on the internet because fishermen are liars. Well that is sometimes true, but even more often I bet the information is correct, as far as all parties can relay it, but the fish is just that much more selective. __________________ Selling live waterdogs for less since 2005.

03-15-09, 03:40 AM	#2
Bubba_Bruiser BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South MS Posts: 3,659	"The difference between a successful attempt at learning a new technique and an unsuccessful attempt can sometimes be so minute that it perceptable only to the fish. Even if the successful angler takes minutes of time to try and explain, again, exactly what he is doing the 2 anglers may never figure it out. It is not luck. When a pattern repeats itself over and over again, it is not luck." Maybe it is just body mechanics and how we move. Maybe that's why some anglers present certain techniques and presentations and produce 2 fold over others. Every professional angler is known for their strength. As you probably know your fishing buddy's strength and weakness, too. And maybe I missed the post totally off center as to what you are trying to convey. __________________ \,,,,/ ROCK ON! HRN4L!

03-15-09, 07:36 AM	#4
WTL BassFishin.Com Premier Elite Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntsville, Al Posts: 7,466	Yea, I'm not discouraging people from trying at all. I think we should just recognize the difficulties involved so you don't get too discouraged (like maybe I have in the past at times). You can still develop your skill. It might very well be body mechanics. There is a knack. Where does that knack come from? I would be really curious how KVD pictures his presentation in his mind. Cause I do believe there is an subconscious understanding that then translates into his presentation. And we don't relate that subconscious thing. We say "do this with your hands, twitch the bait, stop and go" - and all that is true, it is there but how is a guy stopping the lure and going? I know I have talked about baseball a few times. When I am throwing a spinnerbait with confidence I feel like a pitcher on a mound shaking off a changeup and bringing the heat. That might actually give a guy a better idea of what I am doing than telling him I'm waking a spinnerbait. Baseball. I know the fish. I got the scouting report. I know how to make him swing. Thats the subtle thing we dont get. I dont know how else to explain that. I can only imagine the depth and layers involved in KVDs understanding, and what part of that understanding KVD explicitly is aware of and what parts he just does without thinking and without the ability to relate. You know if I asked Steve Nash, I bet he could tell me the right form to shoot a jump shot. But that last 1% of the j, that polish on the technique is up to me. That 1% in fishing just might be magnified to making a %200 increase in your catch rate. __________________ Selling live waterdogs for less since 2005. Last edited by WTL; 03-15-09 at 07:44 AM.

03-15-09, 08:36 AM	#6
bcklash BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Elliston, Va. Posts: 4,372	WTL, Rick Clunn ain't got nothing on you -- This is one of the best threads I've read. GREAT THREAD __________________ The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. keep us free:

03-15-09, 08:44 AM	#7
BigBassin144 BassFishin.Com Premier Elite Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 9,463	WTL, you're absolutely right. I don't know how many times this has happened to my and and me. Even last year at guntersville. We were fishing the gator vine with John and my dad figured out we needed to fish slower. At one point, I was casting out and not even reeling, just letting the lure move at the speed of the boat. I couldn't slow down anymore, and my dad still caught more than John and me combined. I also understand what you're saying about how hard it is to explain over the internet. I've found that whenever someone tells you how to fish something, weather it be me, or someone else on here, your fishing buddy in the boat next to you or KVD or some other pro on a TV show or at a seminar, you ALWAYS need to try different little things to get what the fish want. It's like finding the right rythm with a jerkbait. BB __________________ As of June 14, 2014 the members of the BF.com forum have moved to basschat.yuku.com!

03-15-09, 07:24 AM	#3
bassackwards BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: hampton va Posts: 408	i see your point WTL, i am one of those up in coming fisherman. today im goen out (in the rain and cold) just to try drop shoting and the shakey head both i learned from here. don't know how it's goen to work out but like you said if some one was there to show me the basic's that would be nice. i can't take kevin's video with me. I do thank everyone that has taken the time to try to explane things to us non pro's it does help trust me and maby in the future there will be more video's on dif techniques on this sight but for now thanks for just typen

03-15-09, 08:10 AM	#5
Love of the Sport BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Baton Rouge Louisiana Posts: 236	My fishing partner is magic with worms while I on the other hand have only caught 2 fish in my life on them. he has gone into great detail to show me how he presents them and I still can't do it. Can't imagine trying to take all that in through words.

03-15-09, 09:10 AM	#10
bamabassman BassFishin.Com Premier Elite Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: cedar bluff, alabama Posts: 15,292	wtl, you are so correct in this thread. it is like i have said about me. i am a better coach than a player. and bb gave an excellent example rom last years get together. his dad (kingfish) caught twice as many as bb and i with the SAME techinque. but after using the technique on my own, i got towhere i could catch some. zooker said it, time on the water. there are so many different styles of using the same bait and lures that i tink you must find you own way of using that particular techinque. find you own little nitch maybe? this is a VERY good thread wtl. threads like these make us think more and see in depth into what we are doing versus the techinque we are trying to imatate.thank you for this. __________________ so many lures, so little time.

03-15-09, 09:55 AM	#11
aikenyounggun BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: aiken, SC Posts: 2,051	yeah with some of this itrs just confidence..... goin back to the pitchers metaphor.... if the opposin team is killin my fastball (no fish in the boat) you bet im gonna throw my change up (shaky head- CONFIDENCE) also talkin about the younger fishermen, as one i can learn stuff from this website but it is true that sometimes it is very small stuff that you have to learn.... thats why im glad my dad is such a good fishermen.... he can teach my a lot..... things that you cant describe or things i cant understand over the internet also i realized that i could do ok in local tournaments throwin a shaky head, but to reach a pro level i got to learn every lure and get good at most of em...... i fished shaky head for a year (why did i do this, i was catchin fish, its that simple) and i regret it.... so my new years resoltuion that is hanging on my wall says "learn new bait like: jig, texas rig, spinner baits"...... this dont mean i dont know how to fish em its just i dont know everything about em...... i also dont have confidence in them (or at least not a lot) great post WTL....... __________________ <>< Rather be Fishing ><>

03-15-09, 10:40 AM	#12
Jim80 BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Thomaston CT Posts: 3,862	Wtl good thread man , just like everything that is worth achieving practice is the main component in being good at any given thing . You can read and discuss tactics and new methods of fishing but in the end there is no replacing time on the water . Another thing is the confidence "clause" in fishing, you may not be confident in a bait or technique but by no means should that keep you from learning to use one , like everything else confidence will come with practice . Jim __________________ In memory of Zooker 1/11/73-7/2/2010. You will be sorely missed and never forgotten.

03-15-09, 12:16 PM	#13
jooleyen BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,509	Good post and thoughts. I was thinking what Zooker and others said. Confidence and fishing the bait A LOT in many types of conditions. After even a little while, you get a feel for what you're doing and you subconsciously present the bait in a certain fashion in relation to the conditions. Now, this can be refined to a great extent, but this is the basic idea. You probably can't just copy someone right off the bat, but if you keep trying, you find little things that increase your catch rate.

03-15-09, 12:48 PM	#14
OrygunBasser BassFishin.Com Active Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Lakeside, Oregon Posts: 159	This is a great thread! My take is that bass fishing presentations are sooooooo much of a mind game. It boils down to a confidence factor as I see it. For instance, a couple years ago on Clear Lake California I was fishing with an old friend that was killing them on a certain spinnerbait. I didn't have one just like it and it was his only one. I had it in my mind that it was the bait and was not catching my share of fish because I didn't expect to. I started to think about it and decided that I would watch the way he presented the bait for about five minutes. I then matched the color as close as I could and started fishing differently and thinking in my mind that I was going to catch a fish on every cast. Soon I was catching almost as many as him. We then moved to another spot off of a point, I picked up a dropshot (A strong point of mine) with a bait that he had nerver seen and almost imeadiatly caught a fish, and then another, and then another all back to back 3-4#ers. He actually got so frustrated that he picked up and went to another spot. He lost all confidence in himself. Conditioning your mind that there is a fish watching your lure at every seconn it is in the water is very important. Way back when I started fishing a few small tournaments I was fishing along and a boat went by, my line was out and I turned to watch the boat. My older partner, without looking at me said, "Ya gonna fish or watch boats all day"???? My take may not fit every senario, but it fills a lot of them! __________________ You may practice catch and release as a religion but that doesn't mean that the next person has to bow down to your god! Last edited by OrygunBasser; 03-15-09 at 05:24 PM.

03-15-09, 04:00 PM	#15
MississippiBoy BassFishin.Com Super Veteran Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ridgeland MS Posts: 3,923	Good thoughts, everybody. It's very much a mind game out there. Everybody say it with me... Oooooooommmmmmmmmmmm.......... __________________ I smell smoke, and I hear sirens. Do you think that's a problem?

03-15-09, 10:40 PM	#17
bamabassman BassFishin.Com Premier Elite Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: cedar bluff, alabama Posts: 15,292	this happened today to me. i took gbassman out on the lake. we were throwing the same baits. he caught 3 fish, missed 3. the biggun was 5# even. me? not even a nibble. different folks work baits differently. i was trying my best to imatate what he was doing. nuthin. but i will get it. time will prove it. __________________ so many lures, so little time.

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