Rod Building

[MO3N]

I would like to start doing some rod building because I love the nelson rod I got awhile ago. I know it will take a long time to make it to his quality but It looks like fun.

I took a quick and basic rod building class that taught me how to build a rod. but the guy that I took the class with did things very basic. He would use the guides the manufacture recommended and would place them in the recommended spots by the manufacture. He also kept his reel seat in the same location for all of his rods with no special wraps.

For me I would rather do a little more customizing, thats the entire reason I want to build custom rods for myself. Although I will probably start basic like he showed me but eventually I would like to go outside of the manufactures mold. So I have a couple questions.

How do you know what size guides to use? I understand how to place my guides, but I am not sure on how to choose my guide size. I found a few programs and charts but they seem to mostly be for fly rods. I'm guessing there is a large range of sizes that can be used because of micro guides and stuff but was just hoping to find a rule or chart for spinning and baitcasting rods.

My last question is how do you make a custom rod balanced? When I got my Nelson rod he asked me what reel I would be using and it balances perfectly. Is it just luck, knowledge from building for awhile, or do you test the reel seat at different locations with the reel to see how it balances.

I have been reading on rodbuilding.org and rodbuildingforum.com but cant find a straight forward answer.

thanks

[VadneyCustomRods]

Hey buddy,
I actually registered on this form to reply to this thread. I've been lurking here for a while and this was the kick in the pants I needed haha.

Anyway, I've been building rods for over 10 years and I think I could give you some good info to get you started.

#1: What guide sizes do you use?
There is no definite answer to this question, and if you do some reading on micro guides and look at some of the tests the east coast surf guys are doing, you'll see that sometimes smaller guides are performing better than larger guides in terms of casting distance. Generally speaking, for a baitcasting bass rod, the stripping guide should be a size 12, then gradually going down to 6, with a size 6 tip. So for a 6'6" rod it would look something like this: 12, 10, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 6, tip. For a spinning, you will generally start with a size 25 guide, then go down to a 6 with a size 6 tip.
Also, there are two sizes when referring to tips, the tube size and the ring size. The tube size is the inside diameter in 64ths of an inch, which should correspond to the tip diameter of the blank. When ordering blanks online, never trust what the website says is the tip size. Every blank is different so order a tip 1/2 of a size on each side of what the website says (so for instance, if the site says it's a size 5.5 tip, get a 5.0, 5.5, and a 6.0). This will ensure that you have a tip that fits when you get all of your components in the mail.

How do you balance the rod with the reel on it before you build it?
I generally build rods to balance with a range of reels. I never plan on always using one particular reel on a rod for the life of that rod so I balance it out with what the average reel on the market is (unless I'm building a rod for someone who tells me they are using a size 50 reel, or a magnesium reel). Most reels weigh about 8oz (regular sized curado) so that's what I use to balance them. Some of my rods have longer butt sections than what is available in factory rods because I'm a big guy and it helps me with casting distance so I don't always go for a perfectly balanced set-up.
Building rods in a split grip configuration will give you a lot more options in terms of balancing the rod out w/o having to have 30824098202 different length butt sections on hand. Epoxy up the fighting butt, place your rear grip on the blank and put the reelseat on, then use 1/4" masking tape to tape your guides on and move the rear grip, reel seat with reel, and foregrip around to find the location where it balances in your hand.

Also, http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/rod-building/ is the best rod building forum I have found on the web. Rodbuilding.org is full of pretentious d*cks and the surftalk forum moves a little slow (not enough people posting) for me.

Some tips that will save you a million headaches when you start out building rods:
WASH YOUR HANDS EVERY HALF HOUR WHEN WRAPPING GUIDES!!! The oils on your hands can cause all kinds of issues with the finish pulling away from the threads ("fisheyeing").

Use sharp razor blades to trim your tie-offs. Using a dull blade can cause you to push too hard and nick the guide wrap.

Mix your finish in perfectly even proportions. The finish will never setup unless it is mixed evenly. Get yourself some rod building syringes (yes you have to use rod building syringes and not regular ones because the regular ones use silicone in the manufacturing process and that will cause tons of problems when you apply the finish to the thread).

Silicone is the devil. Keep it away from your rod building area at all costs.
Dust is the devil's right-hand man. Dust can make your finish look like sh*t.

Take your time grinding your guide feet. Making sure that you have a nice smooth ramp for the thread to climb up will not only make wrapping the guide easier but will help prevent future cracks and checks in your finish at the guide foot (I'm sure we have all seen factory rods with cracks in the finish at the end of the guide foot).

For 99% of freshwater rods, you only need size "A" thread. Don't worry about buying size C,D, E, or EE.

Buy "Advanced Custom Rod Building" by Dale Clemens. Some of the stuff is outdated but many of the concepts are still the same. http://www.amazon.com/New-Advanced-C.../dp/0832904368

When starting out, buy this stuff and you will be completely set to begin wrapping:
Alcohol lamp (moving the flame quickly over the finish when it is on the rod makes the small bubbles pop to help keep your finish clear).
A 100 box of razor blades
FlexCoat burnishing tool
A pair of small spring loaded clippers for cutting thread.
A 18rpm (or less) rod dryer.
Size A thread in whatever colors you like.
FlexCoat Color Preserver (if you apply finish directly to the threads, the threads will turn transparent and they will become a shade of color similar to that of the rod blank) this doesn't apply to black thread. Try to never use Color Preserver on black as not only is it not needed, but it will make the black turn to a shade of gray.
5min epoxy. I use this to put my rod tips on instead of the heat reactive glue.
U40 Rod Bond. This is the stuff you use to glue up grips and reel seats.
Denatured alcohol. Everyone use to use Acetone for epoxy clean-up, but recently there has been a ton of info coming out that exposure to acetone over time can lead to some serious forms of cancer. Denatured alcohol is harmless and it works just as well.
Packs of FlexCoat disposable brushes
Rod building mixing cups to mix your epoxies and finish.
Aluminum foil to pour your mixed finish on so that it can spread out and allow the small bubbles to come to the surface and pop.
A rod wrapping machine. This is totally up to you and your budget. I built my first rod on a pair of cardboard boxes with "V's" cut in 'em and I still have that rod to this day. But if you plan on building a lot of rods it is very nice to have a power wrapper. I have a Custom Power Wrap machine with a built in drying motor. http://www.anglersworkshop.com/items.aspx?catid=3049

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions in the future and I hope what I wrote was helpful!

By the way, here are some rods that I have built over the years:

[DVT Mike]

The proper guide is the smallest and lightest that will do the job. You'll have to learn this by asking and experience as you go. Balance is a personal preference. That's why you can't find a direct answer, there isn't one. The balanced feel you prefer can be accomplished several ways and will vary build to build. Recommended spacing is a starting point, but not static testing defeats the advantage of a custom rod unless the goal is just something to do. I suggest not spending a ton at first on equipment. Do a few and see how you like it.

[MO3N]

Vadney-thanks for all the info. I will defiantly use the advice you recommend. I was actually looking at that rod wrapper from anglers workshop just without the motor, just wrapping by hand.

Mike- I will definitely static test my guides to be sure the line fallows the blank. I guess that could be a good way to check guide size too. Ill definitely starting with cheap rods and very basic for me first few rods. my dad used to build rods along time ago and wanted to get back into it so I am planning on borrowing his stuff tell I know I like it for sure.

For thread do you recommend the stuff that does need Color Preserve or the thread that does not need CP?

When you buy guides do you buy them for each rod you plan on building of do you buy a bunch to have on hand? I know my first couple ill probably just buy for each rod but just wondering what is best in the long run.

[MO3N]

Forgot to say it but vadney those rods look amazing. what wraps are the last two rods?

[WaffleJaw]

Moen first off,Im glad you like the rod.It was fun making it!.I just posted my newest one that I made for myself with the same blank!

I agree with Vadney and Mike on all accounts.
(BTW,Vadney Its good to see you here from BD! I recognize those rods,ha!)..

NCP thread (No Color Preserver) vs Nylon thread is also personal preference.Ones not better than the other.. It just looks different...Nylon offers a lot more depth and truer color I think,of course color preserver is need to keep the colors from bleeding into another..You can do it without cp if its only one color,but it will darken tremendously ...NCP look more like paint..which can be a nice effect as well...I use alot of both,and alot on the same wrap..it just depends on what Im working on...Your rod was all NCP thread and metallics..Metallics dont require CP either!
You just have to play with it all I think!

I just buy the guides as I get the orders.I just dont like keeping alot of inventory...Usually even if they get backordered,it doesnt take long,plus theres plenty to do until then.

One thing Ill mention is how many guides you may need...A general rule of thumb is one guide per foot of the rod blank +1 plus the the tip.
So if you got a 7' rod you'll need 8 guides and a tip..On micros I usually do +2...so 10 guides plus the tip (like on your rod)

Once you make the move and get the general supplies and components just pm/post any questions and well all get ya covered!

[MO3N]

Thanks Waffle. Ya i have not gotten to actually fish with the rod cause I went out to the lake and it was still half frozen so I just tossed a crankbait around to get a feel for the rod. cant wait to actually do some fishing with it. I graduate in a couple weeks and thats when ill likely start my first rod build.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

And something I will add is that it can't be bought in a store that you will need...tons of patience. I found myself in moments of terette like fits as seen on the Maury Povich Show. But it happens when hours of work are screwed by one tiny blunder. But all I can say is to back up, let be what is, and start over.

BTW Vandey, I notice your work from BD too. I am a member there but seldom post. But awesome thread work to say the least.

[Lvitch]

Awesome rods Vadney! I don't claim to know anything about rod building, but do know when you have that perfect rod in hand (whatever it may be) its magic

[VadneyCustomRods]

Thanks for the compliments guys!! And good seeing you guys over here as well Waffle and Bubba!!

The wraps in the last two rods are (in order): A pinwheel wrap bordered by a Jim Trelikes olive-branch wrap, and the one below that is just a closed chevron.