Getting the most from your Knots

[HarveysMinnow]

Close attention to your knots may not help you catch more fish, but it could reduce your chances of losing the better ones.
Like the man said,

[http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos...ode-1001319720 ]

"One thing you can’t buy is a good knot. You have to tie it on your own." As you can see in the article, knot strengths vary widely, and their overall integrity can depend on how well you tie them. To me, this meant that I needed some means of testing the knots I have tied with my own lines.

I like to tinker with things, and since winter is upon us, it seemed a good opportunity to construct something useful. So I made plans to build a rudimentary “tensile tester” to measure approximate knot strength and/or line breaking strength. The fruit of my labor is pictured below. This may represent more time and effort than many of you might want to devote, however, for the few who may want to build something similar, here are a few notes:

All the wood parts are Maple, a very durable hardwood that can be sawed, drilled, and routed to give relatively smooth and precise cuts. You can see that I routed a ‘dovetail keyway’ for the moving tie point sled to ride on. This reduces the possibility of having the whole thing fly apart when testing lines of higher pound ratings. It’s not visible in the photos, but I added a cleat along the bottom centerline so that this gadget can be clamped in the end vise of my woodworking table.

The drive mechanism is a ¼ -20 threaded rod which moves the tie point sled along the keyway as the crank is turned. Two threaded inserts are imbedded in the moving block. The crank wheel (the blue thing) is some kind of tough polymer… something I’d had around for years and never used for anything. Its center hole is threaded to fit the rod and locked in place with a jamb nut. This could have been made from maple also, but I was tired of that blue block taking up space, plus it probably holds a thread better than the wood.

I used an analog gauge, mainly because I already had one, but a digital gauge with a memory might be preferable. The ones I’ve seen locally have no handle for some reason, so this tester would have to be modified to hold any type of scale that cannot be hooked in the slot as shown.

The hitch point mechanism on the moving sled is more a convenience feature than anything else, as it allows me to remove the tie point (usually a hook shank) for easier knot setup. I started out using a regular straight shank hook on the sensor end, but quickly found that when line breakage/knot failure occurs, the hook can fly off dangerously. So now I use a swivel snap for that end of the line.

It should be noted that this gadget lacks the capability for measuring “sudden impact” shock tensioning, which means it cannot simulate the tremendous stresses that some fishermen put on knots/lines with those earth-shattering hook-sets. Knowing the failure point resulting from a slow steady increase in tension may be of little benefit to them.

Throughout the winter, as time permits, I’m going to be turning the crank and testing the knots I tie on a variety of lines. I’m hoping this overall process will result in an improvement of both the strength and reliability of my knots. If there’s enough interest among the Forum membership, I will present some of my findings in a later post. However, I don’t believe anyone else will gain as much from seeing my readings as they will from generating their own results.

[screwballl]

looks like a great idea... I think the hardest part will be seeing exactly where it breaks. Most of the knots if done right will outlast the line itself. I have never had a (proper) knot come undone, it has always been line breaking.

[boloson]

Can u test out the strength of a palomar knot vs a double palomar knot on a braid please? Would like to know if the extra loop makes a huge difference or not

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by boloson

Can u test out the strength of a palomar knot vs a double palomar knot on a braid please? Would like to know if the extra loop makes a huge difference or not

A worthwhile suggestion...not sure I have any braid on hand right now though. If I do it's probably on one of my bait casting reels, with a leader on the front end. As soon as Christmas is out of the way, I'll see what I can find.

/

[walkeraviator]

id like to see if a palomar knot is really as unreliable in flourocarbon as people make it out to be... i have yet to have a knot give up.

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by walkeraviator

id like to see if a palomar knot is really as unreliable in flourocarbon as people make it out to be... i have yet to have a knot give up.

I don't recall having a palomar knot fail either, Walker...with flourocarbon or otherwise. I'll put this variation on the list and we'll see what happens. (I sometimes wonder if some folks regard the Palomar knot as inherently weak, because of it's simplicity.)

/

[Garry2rs]

Here are Powerpro's knot recommendations
http://www.powerpro.com/publish/cont...pro/knots.html...

I am a bit skeptical of knot tests that are done with dry line.

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by Garry2rs

I am a bit skeptical of knot tests that are done with dry line.

Is it your belief that your knots are stronger wet than dry? That is for sure another interesting point to ponder. Seems it would be rather tricky to do knot testing underwater. However, most of the polymers used to make fishing lines are 'hydrophobic', so they don't absorb water to any great extent. Perhaps someone knowledgable of line manufacture could tell us if wet line is generally stronger or weaker than dry line?

We should keep in mind also that the readings obtained from any type of tensile testing equipment won't fully simulate a real fishing situation. Thus the absolute numerical values are only valid for comparative purposes, as in deciding if one knot is consistently stronger than another with the same line. Someone else could build a gadget similar to mine and get different numbers, and those readings would be just as statistically valid as mine.

/

[Garry2rs]

If someone tells you Pasta is hard and brittle! They are right, if they only test it dry.

I am not saying any knot is stronger or weaker when wet. I am saying my knots are wet when I use them. Therefore, tests of dry knots might not provide good data.

I have often heard people say how surprised they were that their favourite knot did so poorly on Knot Wars. I have also read that pulling a dry knot tight can heat the line to 500 degrees!

On TV many knots, seen in slow motion, seem to tighten further as the strain increases then suddenly fail. Could these failures have as much to do with heat from this additional tightening degrading the dry line/knot, as it does with the actual native knot strength? If so, would this heat factor be eliminated underwater?

How good is data that is obtained without using the actual working conditions?

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by Garry2rs

If someone tells you Pasta is hard and brittle! They are right, if they only test it dry.

I am not saying any knot is stronger or weaker when wet. I am saying my knots are wet when I use them. Therefore, tests of dry knots might not provide good data.

I have often heard people say how surprised they were that their favourite knot did so poorly on Knot Wars. I have also read that pulling a dry knot tight can heat the line to 500 degrees!

On TV many knots, seen in slow motion, seem to tighten further as the strain increases then suddenly fail. Could these failures have as much to do with heat from this additional tightening degrading the dry line/knot, as it does with the actual native knot strength? If so, would this heat factor be eliminated underwater?

How good is data that is obtained without using the actual working conditions?

Garry, thanks for your inputs. You certainly present a strong case for the variability of dry knots versus wet knots (even if we set aside your pasta analogy). Unfortunately, I cannot think of any (inexpensive) way that I could test wet knots. I suppose I could sit there with an eyedropper and keep the knot moist as I increase the tension, but that would not be the same as total immersion. I also believe you are right in thinking that water can dissipate heat better than air, and this is why most people say it’s best to lubricate your knot with saliva before the final tightening. Reducing friction reduces heat buildup. Can you remember where you read that ‘pulling a dry knot tight can heat the line to 500 degrees’ ? I would really like to see the experimental setup for making that measurement!

Overall, I have to agree with your statement that “tests of dry knots might not provide good data”, wherein the term ‘good’ in this case is defined as “totally realistic and meaningful”. However, I do believe that taking some readings on dry line and knots tested under identical dry conditions will give me some insights into the relative differences of various knots.

I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel here, nor am I attempting to set myself up as an expert in this area. However, I am hoping to stay focused on the premise that (for me) limited data on knots I have tied may be better than no data, in that this may eventually help me to improve the integrity of my knots. If that doesn’t happen, I can just write this off as an interesting exercise and something to do during the winter. I also thought this might be fun for some of the other Forum participants, which is why I started this thread.

Again thanks for your participation. Such interactions prevent me from feeling like I’m sitting alone in a dark room.

.

[WatterBoy]

Great discussion, guys. Thanks for the dialog!

[IowaBasser]

Originally Posted by Garry2rs

I have often heard people say how surprised they were that their favourite knot did so poorly on Knot Wars. I have also read that pulling a dry knot tight can heat the line to 500 degrees!

It is true that the line can heat up when pulling a knot tight, that is one good reason to put a little spit on it. I gently run my knots between my lips so the line is wet before pulling it tight. The saliva does 2 things: 1. keeps the line from heating up; 2. lubricates the line so your knot pulls tight.

I also hold the "tag end" of the line between my teeth keeping light pressure on the knot while holding the hook with one hand and pulling the line that runs to my reel with the other hand. I read somewhere a long time ago that keeping pressure on the tag end is important so the knot tightens properly and I've always done it since.

I've had knots break, but typically it's out of laziness of not checking or re-tying often enough. It's sheer stupidity to pull out my favorite rod that I had left rigged with a plastic worm from the previous week and start casting it without checking the knot. Especially when fishing plastics, the eyes of the hook often have a sharp edge where the wire is crimped to form the eye. When fishing texas rigs, the bullet sinker can put more pressure on your knot. Heavy cover also wears faster on your knots. We've all got snagged on something before - and what do we do? We yank the line one direction and then in another direction trying to free our lure. The line is sliding on the eye of the hook, and frequently pulls at funny angles causing the line to come in contact with the sharp crimped end of the eye. It's sheer stupidty not to check your knots frequently and re-tie when needed - but I've lost more than my share of fish doing that.

[HarveysMinnow]

Thanks, I B, for your comments and suggestions. I'm as guilty as anyone of failing to check and retie my knots. As you say, it's stupid to keep on fishing and expecting the knot to maintain the same integrity that it had when it was first tied. Even if the knot was near perfect in the beginning, the stress on the tight turns within most knots will take an eventual toll. Also, as you pointed out, there is often the potential for abrasion at the spot on the hook where the eye is formed. I vaguely remember somewhere seeing hooks that have welded eyes (like treble hooks have) as opposed to the more common crimped end types, but I'm thinking they would be far more expensive.

In the limited testing I've done so far, with some of the more popular knots, the most frequent point of failure appears to be right where the standing line comes out of the knot. Since knots all seem to have this feature in common, it may be very difficult to come up with a knot which does not have this inherent weakness.

[HarveysMinnow]

I was sort of hoping that one or more of you guys might become bored enough or curious enough to construct your own “line & knot tester” similar to the gizmo I built. Then we could have compared notes, but I guess few of you have that kind of idle time, even in the dead of winter. Therefore, I’ll just summarize the limited results I have obtained so far:

I decided not to buy any new line for testing purposes only, but I found samples of lines listed below, either on one of my reels or still on the supply spools. (Most of these were purchased within the past 2 years.)

Lines tested:
Trilene mono (4 & 6 lb), Cajun Red mono (8 lb), Seaguar Invis-X (6 & 8 lb), Silver Thread Copoly (8 lb), P-line Flouroclear (8 lb), P-Line CXX Copolymer (6,8,10,12 lb).


There has been some discussion about tightening knots dry versus lubricating them with saliva before tightening. In all the cases where I have checked this variable, the lubricated knots outlasted the same knots tightened without lubrication. That should come as no real surprise to anyone, and even though I believed it, it’s still nice to find that my own data confirms it. Maybe I should have been from Missouri, for sometimes I just have to be shown.

The thing most surprising to me, so far, is that the failure point is often right where the standing line leaves the knot. In other cases, the line failed before the knot, breaking somewhere between the two terminal knots used to attach the line to the test platform. I couldn’t find any inexpensive clamps that would hold the test samples of line securely without knots, but that didn’t bother me, since the original intent was to test knot strengths. In cases where the knots outlasted the line itself, the breaking values were sometimes well above the rated values as printed on the spools.

The Trilene mono 4# failed between the knots, no matter what knots I tested, but only after reaching about 5.5 – 6 pounds on the gauge.

Trilene mono 6#, on the other hand, failed slightly below the rated strength and failure occurred at or near one of the knots.

Cajun Red mono 8# failed anywhere between 7.5 and 9.5 pounds, seemingly dependent on the type of knots used. Almost all failures occurred at or near where the standing line exited one of the knots. Best knots in this case appeared to be the Palomar and the San Diego Jamb Knots.

The Seaguar Invis-X 6# and 8# lines both failed slightly below the rated values, and the type of knot used didn’t seem to matter, since the line broke between the knots.

The P-line Flouroclear 8# also failed at or slightly below the rated strength and always out well between the knots.

Silver Thread 8# copoly line generally failed near one of the knots, at a reading slightly under the rated strength.

P-line CXX copolymer lines (6,8,10,12 #) all failed at a reading somewhat above (as much as 130%) the rated strength. In fact, the 12# line did not fail but pulled apart the swivel snap I was using at the scale end of the test platform. This happened at almost 20#, and I will need to find a sturdier snap before testing such tough lines further.

I haven’t tested any braid so far, because I always use a leader with braided line, and I have not gotten into testing knots like the double Uni, or other line to line knots.

I'll be the first to admit that this sort of testing is Crude, Crude, Crude, especially by any line manufacturer's standards. So I'm not making any endorsements or recommendations based on these results. I just thought they might be of interest to some of you.

.

[Bob Smith]

I read the Bass Master article about the pros doing the knot testing and they rated the San Diego Jamb and Uni Knot (don't confuse with double uni for line to line) for use on Flourocarbon. For the longest time I was a firm believer in Palomar, but I have since learned to tie the uni knot proficiently and quickly. Since doing this I have had a much higher success rate on line damage (far fewer breakages). I have always been a believer in moistening my line as I tighten the knot. So my question to you is to compare the Uni to the Palomar on any of the flourocarbon lines (I use Trilene 100% most of the time). In all fairness compare them wet. Thanks!

[CamG]

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

I was sort of hoping that one or more of you guys might become bored enough or curious enough to construct your own “line & knot tester” similar to the gizmo I built. Then we could have compared notes, but I guess few of you have that kind of idle time, even in the dead of winter. Therefore, I’ll just summarize the limited results I have obtained so far:

I decided not to buy any new line for testing purposes only, but I found samples of lines listed below, either on one of my reels or still on the supply spools. (Most of these were purchased within the past 2 years.)

Lines tested:
Trilene mono (4 & 6 lb), Cajun Red mono (8 lb), Seaguar Invis-X (6 & 8 lb), Silver Thread Copoly (8 lb), P-line Flouroclear (8 lb), P-Line CXX Copolymer (6,8,10,12 lb).


There has been some discussion about tightening knots dry versus lubricating them with saliva before tightening. In all the cases where I have checked this variable, the lubricated knots outlasted the same knots tightened without lubrication. That should come as no real surprise to anyone, and even though I believed it, it’s still nice to find that my own data confirms it. Maybe I should have been from Missouri, for sometimes I just have to be shown.

The thing most surprising to me, so far, is that the failure point is often right where the standing line leaves the knot. In other cases, the line failed before the knot, breaking somewhere between the two terminal knots used to attach the line to the test platform. I couldn’t find any inexpensive clamps that would hold the test samples of line securely without knots, but that didn’t bother me, since the original intent was to test knot strengths. In cases where the knots outlasted the line itself, the breaking values were sometimes well above the rated values as printed on the spools.

The Trilene mono 4# failed between the knots, no matter what knots I tested, but only after reaching about 5.5 – 6 pounds on the gauge.

Trilene mono 6#, on the other hand, failed slightly below the rated strength and failure occurred at or near one of the knots.

Cajun Red mono 8# failed anywhere between 7.5 and 9.5 pounds, seemingly dependent on the type of knots used. Almost all failures occurred at or near where the standing line exited one of the knots. Best knots in this case appeared to be the Palomar and the San Diego Jamb Knots.

The Seaguar Invis-X 6# and 8# lines both failed slightly below the rated values, and the type of knot used didn’t seem to matter, since the line broke between the knots.

The P-line Flouroclear 8# also failed at or slightly below the rated strength and always out well between the knots.

Silver Thread 8# copoly line generally failed near one of the knots, at a reading slightly under the rated strength.

P-line CXX copolymer lines (6,8,10,12 #) all failed at a reading somewhat above (as much as 130%) the rated strength. In fact, the 12# line did not fail but pulled apart the swivel snap I was using at the scale end of the test platform. This happened at almost 20#, and I will need to find a sturdier snap before testing such tough lines further.

I haven’t tested any braid so far, because I always use a leader with braided line, and I have not gotten into testing knots like the double Uni, or other line to line knots.

I'll be the first to admit that this sort of testing is Crude, Crude, Crude, especially by any line manufacturer's standards. So I'm not making any endorsements or recommendations based on these results. I just thought they might be of interest to some of you.

.

I've never done any scientific studies on P-line CXX, but your test shows exactly what I've come to realize after using it for 12+ years. IT'S TOUGH LINE! I've used 12lb. test for flippin' and whacked some 5+ lbers - not once did the line fail.

[carolina-rig-01]

This is very interesting information. Thank you for going through the effort to this test.

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

I read the Bass Master article about the pros doing the knot testing and they rated the San Diego Jamb and Uni Knot (don't confuse with double uni for line to line) for use on Flourocarbon. For the longest time I was a firm believer in Palomar, but I have since learned to tie the uni knot proficiently and quickly. Since doing this I have had a much higher success rate on line damage (far fewer breakages). I have always been a believer in moistening my line as I tighten the knot. So my question to you is to compare the Uni to the Palomar on any of the flourocarbon lines (I use Trilene 100% most of the time). In all fairness compare them wet. Thanks!

Bob, I will try to come up with a way to do the comparison you are requesting. I don't believe I have any Trilene 100% flouro line, but I'll try again with the Seaguar Invis-X 8#. In testing this line earlier, I used a Palomar on one end and a Trilene knot on the other. In all cases the line failed between the knots, so I couldn't really say which knot was better. Both knots outlasted the standing line.

One possibility (which might be more realistic anyway) would be to somehow mount one of my bait casters on the bench and crank the drag down tight and then wind the line against the test gauge. But even then I would be testing the selected knot against the line itself, so right now I'm not sure the two can be separated (at least not within the limitations of my test setup).

Anyone have other ideas on this??

.

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by CamG

I've never done any scientific studies on P-line CXX, but your test shows exactly what I've come to realize after using it for 12+ years. IT'S TOUGH LINE! I've used 12lb. test for flippin' and whacked some 5+ lbers - not once did the line fail.

CamG, I can't say that my testing was that scientific, but it's good to know that my results agree with your years of experience. I believe your long-term successful usage also speaks positive about their overall line consistency. Out of curiousity, how long do you generally use a portion of line before you respool?

[HarveysMinnow]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

This is very interesting information. Thank you for going through the effort to this test.

Thanks for your interest, C-Rig. It was somewhat unexpected to me that I could tie many of the knots well enough that they would outlast the line. I guess that means I'm doing something right.

[CamG]

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

CamG, I can't say that my testing was that scientific, but it's good to know that my results agree with your years of experience. I believe your long-term successful usage also speaks positive about their overall line consistency. Out of curiousity, how long do you generally use a portion of line before you respool?

Really depends on how often I use that particular line. I love fresh line, so I change it way more often than I really need to. I would say that if I get 3-4 outings out of it, it's time to change.

[carolina-rig-01]

Hey Harvey, if you have time and wouldn't mind would you test another knot against the palomar knot head to head with the same line. I have had problems in the past with the palomar knot failing so I started tying this knot, mainly for techniques that have really hard hooksets like a jig or Texas rig. I haven't had this knot fail me one time and I am expecting it to be stronger than the palomar knot in your test but I am interested to see for sure. If you would do that, then here is a link to a video showing you how to tie this knot, it's the second video down and it's similiar to a San Diego Jam knot. http://lftlures.com/riggings

[CamG]

Kory - are you having trouble with the Palomar on fluoro? Just curious - I use the Palomar on about 90% of my knots, and use a double Palomar on my jigs and plastics. I can't recall a single failure - but, I don't use fluoro for jigs or plastics, either.

[carolina-rig-01]

Yeah CamG, my palomar problems were with flourocarbon. That is the only line I was tying the palomar knot with. It wasn't breaking a lot but it did break a lot more than it should have. Like I said, I have yet to have this other knot break and I am pretty sure it is much stronger than the palomar.

[WatterBoy]

It's interesting how different knots work better for different folks, but I suppose there are so many other variables involved also. I have used the Palomar knot almost exclusively since a lake guide here taught it to me 2+ years ago. I haven't had it fail on me yet, but I only use it on spinning gear since I haven't yet learned how to use a baitcaster. And the biggest bass I've ever caught on Fluoro line is 5 pounds, so maybe that has an impact also since I don't catch very big fish compared to some of you guys. The line I use varies from 6-12 lb test, although it's usually 8lb. I use the Palomar on braided line now also, although maybe I shouldn't, but I don't know much about what to use for braided line knots. I'm still learning the intracacies of the rod/reel/line things even though I've been bass fishing a fair amount for 10+ years now.