Braid question from a diehard braid user

[pignjig]

I've been using braid for years and believe I've gotten to know its characteristics fairly well. One thing I've noticed is that most guys recommend using a palomar knot with it. When I started using braid I didn't have much experience and just used the standard improved clinch or Rapala knots. For some reason, other than that Spiderwire Invis-braid stuff, I've never had an issue with knots. Now that I've cursed myself by bringing up the subject and will be forced to use the palomar, what are the benefits of the palomar over the improved clinch/Rapala?

Thanks!

-Pig

[Lancer6]

Porkenstein,

Simplicity and ease of tying...'cept onto a huge Spook on a windy day
The Palomar has proven to be effective, no less durable than others, and just plain works.
If you have problems when passing a treble hook-equipped lure through the loop (See: Spook!) try putting hook bonnets on the hooks, especially the tail hook, until the knot is completed then slip them off before casting. I do this, especially on windy days or in poor light and it helps.

Lancer6

[islandbass]

The palomar knot doesn't weaken the line as much as the Improved clinch knot. Matter of fact, the Improved Clinch knot is NOT recommended with braid especially when the braid is new. It can actually slip out. If I do use it I will use a little moew than twice the usual wrappings and I'm probably targetting pan fish and stocked trout.

The palomar knot is easier and faster to tie too and this is coming from someone who loves to tie the Improved Clinch knot, but not for braid. It could cost you.

[Bob Smith]

The palomar is the favored knot with most braids and flourocarbons because it holds (won't slip). Care has to given when tying it to avoid "friction". You can do this several ways. The way I do it is by tying an extra large "granny knot" (overhand) first. Then I keep a finger tip in the knot loop while loop my tag loop over the hook/bait/whatever. I work the entire palomar down to my finger tip without any friction. Then with the hook/bait/whatever in one hand and the tag/main line in the other, I moisten and pull the whole thing snug and trim the tag. With a little practice you notice that the knot is smooth and effortless this way (and won't break prematurely).

[Jim80]

In a recent issue of morth american fisherman they did stress tests throughout the different knots with braided line . the palomar knot showed to hold the best under and over normal stress , in braided lines it was the only knot that preformed properly

[BigBassin144]

For some reason, I have more trouble tying the palomar knot on any line with any bait/terminal tackle than I do with the improvec clinch. I've used the Palomar and Improved clinch on braidnad found they both hold pretty well for me, but the Palomar does hold better, so I struggle through and tie it.

BB

[Captmikestarrett]

As you known braid will cut steel given the oppurtunity to create friction.
The palomar solves that line cutting itself issue. Simple and can be tied in the dark.

But a topwater bait should always use a loop. It allows free movement and simply works better.

The knot for a loop is also simple and can be tied in the dark as well.

Capt Mike

[Fishnngolfn]

Originally Posted by Captmikestarrett

As you known braid will cut steel given The knot for a loop is also simple and can be tied in the dark as well.

Capt Mike

Which loop knot are you talking about?

1. The non slip loop knot.


Or

2.
The Perfection Loop -

OR

3. The surgeon's end loop
http://www.netknots.com/html/fishing_knots.html

[Lancer6]

I fear I must repeat; ANY topwater lure that walketh, to include popper types since so many of those can be made to wag their tails, merits a properly selected split ring. I use them on Pop 'Rs and others of that ilk and the propless Devil Horse stickbait.
I do NOT use a ring or loop on other surface baits...toads, SPRO Frogs, buZZZZZZZZbaits, etc.
And, by way of reinforcement...PEAR-shaped split ring, tied on the small end (See: Stem end of the pear. See: Palomar Knot. See: Spot run. Run, Spot, run!)
Then again, differences in philosophy, approach, and opinion benefit all who maintain an open mind. (Then do exactly as I TELL YOU!)

Lancer6

[Fishnngolfn]

Originally Posted by Lancer6

I fear I must repeat; ANY topwater lure that walketh, to include popper types since so many of those can be made to wag their tails, merits a properly selected split ring. I use them on Pop 'Rs and others of that ilk and the propless Devil Horse stickbait.
I do NOT use a ring or loop on other surface baits...toads, SPRO Frogs, buZZZZZZZZbaits, etc.
And, by way of reinforcement...PEAR-shaped split ring, tied on the small end (See: Stem end of the pear. See: Palomar Knot. See: Spot run. Run, Spot, run!)
Then again, differences in philosophy, approach, and opinion benefit all who maintain an open mind. (Then do exactly as I TELL YOU!)

Lancer6

So rig a "pear-shaped" split ring to the topwater lure and then tie a palomer knot to the small end of the split ring? Does this setup allow the topwater lure to move naturally like a loop knot does? Don't get mad. I am just asking because I have never heard of this before.

I still would like to hear Capt Mike's opinion on the which loop knot.

[Captmikestarrett]

Number one is my choice..

Capt Mike

[Lancer6]

Originally Posted by Fishnngolfn

So rig a "pear-shaped" split ring to the topwater lure and then tie a palomer knot to the small end of the split ring? Does this setup allow the topwater lure to move naturally like a loop knot does? Don't get mad. I am just asking because I have never heard of this before.

I still would like to hear Capt Mike's opinion on the which loop knot.

Harken unto glad tidings!
YES! A properly selected split ring will NOT impede the action of the lure. In fact, it will enhance it by providing "hinge" that allows the lure to swing to and fro more easily.
One must select the ring for a given lure and situation with care. Too heavy and it will cause the nose to drop. This can cause the nose to "plow", especially in more rippled water. However, the ring will cause less drag than the loop knot in most cases, having less material in the water than the loop. Too, a ring, properly tied (Did I mention "Palomar") presents less susceptibility to fraying OR minor snags.
Now, all that said...there are certain walking lures where a split ring, unless VERY carefully selected, will have a pronounced negative effect on the action of the lure. The classic example is the tiniest of the Spooks...The Spook Puppy, I think, which is so light and small that extra weight on the nose end will cause plowing. There are tiny split rings that can overcome this to a reasonable extent. The problem then becomes one of tying the lightest and least bulky knot possible (PALOMAR!) and making certain the knot is not on the divide between the two ends of the wire. This, of course, applies to ALL use of split rings and is absolutely crucial. The pear-shaped ring makes avoiding that problem far easier than with the traditional round ring.
This debate and beneficial exchange is gonna rage on forever. I just know it.

Lancer6

[pignjig]

Thanks to everyone for the input on knots, split rings, et al. For the record, I often pass winter hours away practising knot tying like a good geek should. Still, the palomar, as easy as it is, is the most difficult for me to get "right". In short, I guess it's just laziness that keeps me going back to the clinchs and Rapalas. You all have thrown enough logical reasons this way for me to start getting used to the palomar/braid union.

As always, thanks for the help!

-Pig

[Fishnngolfn]

For braided line, which I now have on one of my poles, what is the best thing to use to trim the excess line when I finish tying the Palomer knot?

I used to use nail clippers but those seem to fray the braided line. I tried using a brand new pair of kitchen scissor (Fiskers) and they too frayed the line.

[Captmikestarrett]

Culprit braid blades..




Buy three and hide them all over the place..

When you can find them buy more..repeat..

Capt Mike

[Fishnngolfn]

Bass Pro Shop?, Walmart?, Academy?, Dick's Sporting Goods?, link to onlinie store?

[Captmikestarrett]

cabelas...

Capt Mike

[islandbass]

Originally Posted by Fishnngolfn

So rig a "pear-shaped" split ring to the topwater lure and then tie a palomer knot to the small end of the split ring? Does this setup allow the topwater lure to move naturally like a loop knot does? Don't get mad. I am just asking because I have never heard of this before.

I still would like to hear Capt Mike's opinion on the which loop knot.

Believe me when I say this, it will actually make it easier to walk the dog. However, instead of a split ring, I use the smallest duo lock snap. This is the kind of snap that you might see on certain crankbaits like some luhr jensen lures. Nothing against a split ring. I just have a few more snaps (not swivel snaps. they work, but I don't trust them) to go through.

[Fishnngolfn]

Originally Posted by pignjig

FnG- Glad to have you on the site! In my opinion, the easiest and least expensive way to spool braid or braided superline onto a spinning reel is to first apply backing. Tie some old or inexpensive mono onto the spool using a double hitch knot. Put a little tape on if needed. Spool about 1/4 of the space you would normally put line in (in other words, fill it up about 1/4 of the way). Then, attach your braid to the mono using a uni-to-uni knot. You can get visual instructions on that knot online. Then spool away! The mono backing does two things: 1) It saves you from having to spool the entire reel with expensive braid and, 2) It prevents the braid from slipping on the slick surface of the spool on a hard retrieve. Hope this helps. By the way, the uni-to-uni is a real booger the first time you try it. Once you get used to it, it'll be your friend, I promise...

Pignjig

I hope Pignjig is alright with me responding to his PM on the forum.

Thanks. The uni to uni knot was not as difficult as I thought. The main thing I learned was to wear some sort of glove when pulling the knots tight. Braided lines cut skin really easily.

I did have a little problem with the line knotting up during some of my casts. I may have put too much line on the spool and it was looping of the reel prematurely during my casts. I will have to check this tomorrow. I did notice that the line casted further than the mono and it didn't twist or spiral up like mono does. Unfortunately I didn't catch anything last night so I have yet to adjust the drag properly.

Should I have a more "loose" drag when fishing with braided line?

[Captmikestarrett]

Originally Posted by Fishnngolfn

I hope Pignjig is alright with me responding to his PM on the forum.

Thanks. The uni to uni knot was not as difficult as I thought. The main thing I learned was to wear some sort of glove when pulling the knots tight. Braided lines cut skin really easily.

I did have a little problem with the line knotting up during some of my casts. I may have put too much line on the spool and it was looping of the reel prematurely during my casts. I will have to check this tomorrow. I did notice that the line casted further than the mono and it didn't twist or spiral up like mono does. Unfortunately I didn't catch anything last night so I have yet to adjust the drag properly.

Should I have a more "loose" drag when fishing with braided line?

Close the bail with your hand not by turning the handle.

Capt Mike

[Fishnngolfn]

Originally Posted by Captmikestarrett

Close the bail with your hand not by turning the handle.

Capt Mike

Thanks. I will try to remember to do that.

[pignjig]

Glad to be of assistance, FNG. The Great Unwashed on this website have been a huge help to me and I'm happy and humbled to contribute something at all. One thing you'll notice quickly-- There are as many opinions as there are users. That's a good thing, really, because we get the benefit of so many experiences and perspectives. I hope you get some quality testing done on that braid this weekend!

Good luck!

-Pig

[Lancer6]

Originally Posted by pignjig

The Great Unwashed on this website have been a huge help to me...

Pig[/quote]

I'd like to believe that we of the minority...The Great (and frequently) Washed, have been of assistance as well. All three (well, one IS a little iffy.) of us feel that we have contributed to your education.
BTW, your book report is overdue. How long can it take to read G-Lok and the Three Bears, anyway?

Lancer6

[pignjig]

Mea Culpa, L6. I was responding to FNG's thank you regarding a PM I sent and in no way meant to infer that I was the only one to help. In regards to the Great Unwashed, I understand it to be a term that was stolen from the Upper Crust of society who used it to describe the Common Man. It was adopted by the average folks and thrown back in their faces, just like the term Yankee Doodle started out as an insult by the British and was thrown back in their faces by the Americans. The last thing I would do would be to insult anyone on this board-- What I wrote was true. I appreciate every tip and every bit of help and I can only hope to be able to contribute to another angler's success as the folks on this site have done for me. Again, no offense intended to you or anyone else. Anyone who may have taken offense at that post has my sincere apology.

-Pig

[mariner]

both of the nots work for me with braid i dont kno if im using a different kind than yal but the improved clinch works just fine for me but u gotta be sure it is tied good, if it is ur set