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Old 04-04-10, 04:28 PM   #1
Garry2rs
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Default Color Vs. Clear Fluorocarbon

I don't want to hijack the line color thread so let's continue the discussion over here.

My question was; "If a Fluorocarbon line tests 100 pounds and is pink, how is it weaker than a clear line also labeled 100 pound test?"

In his post BB144 shows the source of this "tinted is weaker information" to be Seaguar...A company who is a direct competitor of Yo-Zuri, who is the manufacturer of a pink tinted line.

I will add Yo-Zuri's version of the Tint vs. Clear story.

Quote..."Fluorocarbon is only invisible until it gets nicked or scraped up. If this happens, that section of the leader actually lights up from the sunlight. The color pink added to the line helps reduce this problem keeping an anglers invisibility intact. Ultimately the combination of fluorocarbon and the color pink will double your invisibility advantage and increase your chance for hookups!" Unquote.

Personally I think this is just the opposing views of two manufactures about each others products. Obvously either one could make both tinted and clear!

Another opinion was that tinted 100 pound might really only 90 pound test while 100 pound clear could actually be 110 pound test.

I reject this on the grounds that all lines are under rated. (Except for special saltwater lines where World Records are based on"pounds-test line classes.")
It would be sudden death, for any line company, to have their line exposed as not meeting their stated strength.

Therefore if the 100 pound pink is 108 vs clear's 110 so what?! I contracted for 100 pound test and got more than what I paid for, either way.

Now if we can agree that all lines are under rated then we should also be able to agree that this stronger - weaker issue is irrelevant.

The far better comparison, between brands, might be the issue of greater and lessor diameter in a given pound test...But that's another topic...grin.

Please tell me, what you think?
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Old 04-04-10, 07:04 PM   #2
Tavery5
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Default Fcvsfc

[QUOTE=Garry2rs;292227]
Quote..."Fluorocarbon is only invisible until it gets nicked or scraped up. If this happens, that section of the leader actually lights up from the sunlight. The color pink added to the line helps reduce this problem keeping an anglers invisibility intact. Ultimately the combination of fluorocarbon and the color pink will double your invisibility advantage and increase your chance for hookups!" Unquote.

This addressess the ability of the line to remaiin invisible, and does not mention the subject of strength. Wich is what the orignal debate was based on.

The far better comparison, between brands, might be the issue of greater and lessor diameter in a given pound test...But that's another topic...grin.

I think this is what we are really talking about, if you have to make a tinted FC thicker to accomplish the same strength characteristics, then the arguement that tinted line is 10% weaker, would hold true.
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Old 04-04-10, 07:15 PM   #3
Bassboss
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I do think that adding color weakens line a bit.

Here's my proof! From tackle tour.

The first one: Sugoi Fluorocarbon (colored Gray)from Yammamoto Cust Baits.14lb, breaks at 12lb.

The second: Trilene Professional Grade Fluorocarbon (clear). 12lb, breaks at 15lb.

The Third: SunLine Shooter Fluorocarbon (clear). 14lb, breaks at 15lb.

The Fourth: Gamma Edge Fluorocarbon (clear). 10lb, breaks at 12lb

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, I'm don't have any other colored Fluro to add to the test, but, from this, I can say that they do seem to be weaker than clear fluoro. And just from this, I wouldn't get it.
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Old 04-04-10, 09:39 PM   #4
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I find 100lb test to be a silly and not practical example, so I'll use 12lb test, which is a reasonable amount for a bass fisherman to use.

Company A and B both produce fluorocarbon lines, using their own proprietary formulas. Company A sells only clear 12lb test FC. Company B on the other hand, chooses to add a green tint to their 12lb line. Say Company B's 12lb FC looses 10% of its breaking strength, leaving it with 10.8lb. This line SHOULD be marketed as a 10lb line, but we can't know for sure, without testing the line, that this company still sells it as a 12lb line.

Yes, most lines nowdays, except IGFA regulated lines are underrated. As I said in my post on the other line color thread, Yo Zuri Hybrid's 8lb test line has an actual breaking strength of around 12lbs. Therefore, even though they sell this as an 8lb test line, it isn't. So it's not amazing that they can produce an 8lb test line that has a breaking strength of 12lbs. Every other company can make the same thing, it's called 12lb test line!

Most fishermen look at two things. Mostly breaking strength, but also line diameter. Yo-Zuri chooses to market using the first trait. But they could, on the other hand, correctly rate their 12lb line as 12lbs, and claim it has a thinner diameter than most other 12lb lines. I believe they chose correctly from a marketing standpoint. Most would be much more apt to buy an 8lb line w/ 12lb breaking strength than a 12lb line with a small diameter. The first seems much more amazing.

As for Yo-Zuri's quote about fluorocarbon "glowing" when it is nicked, here's another fact from Seaguar's Website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaguar
As long as it is 100% fluorocarbon, the refractive index will remain the same and not light up or shine when nicked or scratched.
One thing I don't like about Yo-Zuri's claims about their pink tinted line is that it is all endorsing their product, while the vast majority of the facts on Seaguar's website are about general myths of fluorocarbon, and not promoting their own product. Makes them much more believable in my opinion.

Another thing I don't like is their claim to "double your invisibility advantage" That doesn't even make any sense to me. First of all, no fluorocarbon is completely invisible. Second, assuming it could be completely invisible, the advantage of that would be tremendous, so how could you double it? Make it doubly invisible? Absurd, isn't it.

Here's a couple more quotes from Seaguar about the invisibility of fluorocarbon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaguar
...The refractive index of 100% fluorocarbon is a constant and cannot be altered...

...[fluorocarbon] is as close as any form of line or leader can get to the refractive index of water, thus making it virtually invisible, but not completely. Some brands do state that, but it is not true.
But back the topic at hand, other than the fact that the dyes used to tint fluorocarbon lines weaken the line when mixed with the FC resins, I don't know how this works...

Secondly, I do agree most lines are underrated in todays market, but few use it as a marketing ploy like Yo-Zuri. I think most lines will break above their rated test though.

Finally, something to take into consideration is line diameter and different FC formulas. There are many, many types of fluorocarbons, and any number of them can be used in the making of FC lines. Different companies have different formulas, so this natural changes the diameter to breaking strength ratio. And some lines, such as Yo-Zuri hybrid are not even 100% fluorocarbon.

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Old 04-04-10, 10:32 PM   #5
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Okay....I'll jump into this discussion.

First things first...fluorocarbon isn't invisible. It's not even necessarily less visible than monofilament.

To understand this we need to talk about refraction; i.e. the bending of light rays as they travel from one material into another. Refraction is based on one property of matter, and one property alone: density. As light passes from one material into another less dense material (like water to monofilament), it is refracted, which appears to us, and fish, as distortion...sort of the "Predator" effect.

Fluorocarbon manufacturers often boast of the quicker sinking of their lines, and rightly so, it is a desirable quality in some presentations. However, for them to claim a line that sinks is also "invisible," is patently dishonest. If the line sinks, it must be more dense than water, and therefore will refract light as it passes through the interface between the line and the water. It makes no difference that fluorocarbon is denser than water and monofilament is lighter...both will refract.

An interesting thing to note (and once again it shows the BLATANT dishonesty of Yo-Zuri in their marketing), is that if something has the same density as water, and is thus "invisible" underwater, it does not matter how it is shaped. This includes nicks, scratches, pretzel-bends, and full-blown knots. A material with a refractive index of 1.0 with respect to water will be perfectly invisible, despite any imperfections or damage to its shape.

Tint, however, is a different matter entirely. If one were able to make a colored plastic of the same density of water, it would not refract, but would still be visible, due to the color difference. Think of it as merely shading in front of an object, but with no distortion of things behind it.

I don't think tint has much to do with strength of a line whatsoever. If it does, it is almost certainly far, far less than differences in diameter and fabrications techniques; i.e. was the factory having a good day on Thursday when the line was made?

One manufacturer may indeed have an 8lb test that performs like a 12lb test from another manufacturer. However, and BB144 said, you need to make sure you're comparing apples to apples, and not merely falling prey to some clever marketing trick.


****Edit*****

If you want to try something kind of neat, take one of your Wife's Pyrex measuring cups or mixing bowls (it MUST be Pyrex) and place it inside another glass bowl big enough to submerge it. If you take ordinary vegetable oil and fill both of the bowls up, the Pyrex bowl will disappear completely. You can take a spoon and tap around inside. It is weird being able to touch it, but not being able to see it.

This is because Pyrex glass has the same refractive index as vegetable oil. (I retract, not refract, my previous assertion that density alone determines refractive index...there are actually some silicate and borosilicate glasses that don't follow this....however, neither is used in fluorocarbon fishing line). So the glass is denser than the vegetable oil and will sink in it, despite having the same index as the oil.)
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Old 04-05-10, 03:09 PM   #6
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when we are talking about +/- 10%, 10 lb test means 9-11 lb. Not really much to worry about overall. It is not until you get to the heavy duty lines like 50lb+ where it would really become a factor.
Since there is that difference, if you want 10 lb colored fluoro, just get 12 lb instead to be safe.
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Old 04-05-10, 07:14 PM   #7
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Thanks for all the interesting and informative posts.
I think Screwball has a good point about 10% not being much in the real world.
Today I checked the diameters of competing 100 % fluorocarbon lines of 100 pound test.
Seaguar's best is shown as .036 which is .003 smaller in diameter than the pink Yo-zuri. Other brands in both Fluoro and Mono seem to all be .039 like the Yo-zuri.
It appears that this is the standard for 100 pound-test.

I will be using this line as a wind-on leader, with Hollow Core line, for Musky fishing this Summer.
Obviously I don't need this heavy a pound test. What I need is something that the biggest possible fish can't bite off. Perhaps in the end the extra diameter is a bonus.
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Old 04-09-10, 11:46 AM   #8
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Wow, you guys sure are overthinkin' this... 1) 100lb test!! What are we catching, submarines? I recently have reduced my tensil strengths on all my lines in the past few years and rarely use anything over 10lb test, my catch rate over the past 2 years has increased dramatically..I also only use braid now for 2 applications (swimbaits & frogs) everything else is mono or floro... My primary reason for going lighter has been due to fishing a lot more freshwater species in the last few years and learning more about fly fishing and how much more freshwater fish are line shy compared to Bass and how truly important line diameter can be. When you start learning how to handle large fish on lighter line it not only makes things more fun but IMO you become a much better fisherman as you are forced to understand the limitations of your gear from the hook, knot, leader, rod & reel...I personally feel that guys who fish for bass are already using lines that are overkill..again just my opinion..but when you can catch a 30pound king salmon on 6-8lb test line...you start thinking that maybe you don't need 17lb test or 50lb braid to reel in a 5lb Bass
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Old 04-18-10, 08:52 AM   #9
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Catching a 30 pound fish on light line is okay if you are going to kill it. However if you think that a fish can survive being exhausted on 6-8 pound line, then released, you are probably mistaken.

I am using 100 pound test leaders for Musky. It's a bite-off thing not a tensile strength thing.

In my argument I also used 100 pound test to avoid the "I only use 6 or 10 or 12 pound test" distraction. It also made + or - 10% easier to calculate...grin.
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Old 04-19-10, 07:31 AM   #10
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Bassboss - PROOF? From Tackle Tours Test, I'm not sold the results of Segoi having a lower "breaking strength" is due to the tint. While possible, other factors may be the major contributor to it's lower breaking strength like it being a thinner, softer version of Segoi's clear.
Quote:
Yamamoto Sugoi Fluorocarbon line is one of the highest rated fluorocarbon lines on the market. Probably the most widely used line on the west coast, Sugoi is manufactuered in Japan by Toray, one of the leading line companies in the world. Sugoi Fluorocarbon is available in a clear version, which is great for all applications that need extreme abbrasion resistance such as flippin, pitchin, throwin jigs, and dropshot. It is also available in a grey version that is slightly thinner and softer, and designed for casting jigs, worms, and shakey heads. The grey line also makes a great fluorocarbon for reaction baits.
Whatever the reason may be, I would much rather a line be rated as close to possible to it break point. As long as it meets the test rating on the spool, I'm happy and would look next at the line's diameter in choosing my line. I prefer a tinted line (green) as opposed to clear, My home waters are virtually all stained and I just prefer the green over clear.
And for all you Yo-Zuri haters - I love the line, especially the UltraSoft. And I have the pink stuff too. HA!
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