Catch and Release being overdone?

[james86]

I'm sorry if this is a re-post. I checked before I posted and I didnt find this article. I'm sure alot of you have already read this but for those of you haven't it's a good read. It got me thinking a little.

http://www.bassresource.com/fishing/...ease_bass.html

[kennethdaysale]

I've read that piece and lots more like it. Ever since the 70's I've been a die hard catch and release advocate. I never really looked at why I believed in it so strongly other than the gut feeling that if everyone released their fish instead of removing them then soon the lake would be full of fish. Seems to make sense until you look closer at LMB/lake management situations. A few years back, before I decided to lease a local private lake, I was talking to a guy that owns a lake mgmt. company in Ga. and he explained it to me like this. Over simplified but I got the point. Lets say a family of 4 normally buys and eats $150. worth of groceries a week and everyone is happy. Then 4 family members move in but don't buy any food, yet sit down to eat 3 times a day. Soon you will have 8 skinny hungry and likely ill people. I've had this lease 3 years in June and have made it mandatory that every bass under 18" be removed ( not kept just transferred). The w/r's (weight to length ratios) have already increased almost 8%. Imagine in the example above if 2 out of the 4 left but the remaining 2 still kept eating that $150. worth of grocries, think they'd gain some weight? Every situation and body fo water is different but these principals are universal.
Now the whole genetic vs learned propensity for being catchable is interesting to think about. Why does Bama catch so many short fish? Truth be told we probably all catch more spankers than lunkers. It's a little more complicated than saying there's a lot more 12" fish than 20" fish. The gene for catchability/aggression exists and is passed on from gen to gen. Conditioning is also well documented. It gets a little murky beyond that. If a certain % of the bass population is "easy" to catch and we harvest them, then whats left to live and breed? The uncatchable trait? Ever heard anybody say " X years ago we could come in here and catch bass till our arms were sore, but lately we're lucky to catch two or three...I guess we caught them all out? Let's say you want to remove a high & of the uncatchable fish..good luck with that You end up getting stuck between the moon and New York city. It's a balancing act...you just have to stay on top of it..assess-intervene-reassess.
If I can find it I'll post a pic of a bass my wife caught 3 times last year at the lease.

[joedog]

I know very little on this subject. As usual I'm still going to jump in.
This is something I have experienced. Lake I fish was completely killed off,2072 acre lake due to Carp infestation.
After restock was done, a one Bass, 18in. size limit was put in place. 3 fish 18in. Walleye and some huge number for Pike and Musky. Typical panfish limits were left in place. This was all done in 1989.
Today the bass, both LG and SM. are abundant. The Wisconsin next record musky is expected to come from this lake. Crappie and sunnies are extremely abundant. I can tell you that last year I shore fished this lake maybe 20 times. Very little shore access due to Illinois wealthy buying up property.
No exageration, I caught a min. of 50 bass 18 inches or larger, both SM and LGM. Couldn't tell you how many smaller, but a hundred min. Another 30 acre 'pond'. 14in bass limit with stocked Rainbow 1000min a year, around 8, 9inchers. Size limit on Trout, 9in. Caught a 9lb. LGM last year. Catch hundreds13 and 14 inch bass. Year after year after year. Over 3lbs. is not exactly rare but not common ethier. After trout release the banks are packed for maybe 2 weeks with trout fishers. Rarely due you catch larger than 14in. trout.
The smaller pond has twice as much land access but given the choice, I'd fish the catch and release Lake any day.

[IowaBasser]

Originally Posted by kennethdaysale

Lets say a family of 4 normally buys and eats $150. worth of groceries a week and everyone is happy. Then 4 family members move in but don't buy any food, yet sit down to eat 3 times a day. Soon you will have 8 skinny hungry and likely ill people.

That's an interesting analogy. I've always heard that a given area of water will support a specific total weight of fish. If that area will support 20 pounds of fish then the fish could be divided any number of ways:
twenty 1-pound fish,
ten 2-pound fish
one 5-pound fish, five 2-pound fish, and five 1-pound fish
etc.,

I assume that a wide range of different weight fish is the healthiest for a lake.

I may show that article to the fishing committee where my dad owns a house on a small lake. Two years ago they gave away a bunch of 10" to 12" bass. (The DNR came in and shocked the bass, then transported the 10" to 12" bass to another lake.) A lot of people grumbled so they haven't continued doing so; but I think it was good management. Last year they stocked 100 muskie hoping to control some of the smaller bass. (Being a man-made, tightly managed lake there are no real forage fish in this lake; just bass, walleye, catfish, crappie, sunfish, and now muskie.) I guess the biologists that are hired to manage my dad's lake are trying to find ways to deal with the large numbers of small and medium size bass. Now everyone's waiting to see what effect the muskie have on the lake.

[kennethdaysale]

Here's a bass my wife caught 3 times last year. Distinct old wound at rear dorsal resulting froma near death experience with a Heron? Blue cat? Caught in Feb-June_Aug 2011 from the same spot in 10' of water (about the same size as pool table. Sonar indicates a flat bottom with a single fence post left from pre-impoundment. **would have removed per my own size mandates but wife objected ""let's put her back pleeese**. If we catch her 3 times this year will we release her? duh Do I hope she is a very prolific spawner and all her offspring have that "can do" attitude? double duh **fwiw caught on a 5" wacky weightless baby bass senko each time**

[kennethdaysale]

Originally Posted by IowaBasser

That's an interesting analogy. I've always heard that a given area of water will support a specific total weight of fish. If that area will support 20 pounds of fish then the fish could be divided any number of ways:
twenty 1-pound fish,
ten 2-pound fish
one 5-pound fish, five 2-pound fish, and five 1-pound fish
etc.,

I assume that a wide range of different weight fish is the healthiest for a lake.

I may show that article to the fishing committee where my dad owns a house on a small lake. Two years ago they gave away a bunch of 10" to 12" bass. (The DNR came in and shocked the bass, then transported the 10" to 12" bass to another lake.) A lot of people grumbled so they haven't continued doing so; but I think it was good management. Last year they stocked 100 muskie hoping to control some of the smaller bass. (Being a man-made, tightly managed lake there are no real forage fish in this lake; just bass, walleye, catfish, crappie, sunfish, and now muskie.) I guess the biologists that are hired to manage my dad's lake are trying to find ways to deal with the large numbers of small and medium size bass. Now everyone's waiting to see what effect the muskie have on the lake.

True...with a twist. Lake A and Lake B are identical. A is unmanaged and left to its own devises. It has a carrying capacity of...oh lets say 50 lbs of LMB per surface acre. Lake B is properly fertilized..carrying cap is now almost double...now aireate properly..cap increases another 60-80 % now provide perfect spawning areas and estuary habitat and cap goes up another 30-40 % now install feeders to pump up the volume on the bluegill population and cap goes up again........a regular pond becomes a bass factory. Of course this is abest case scenario but very doable.
Almost forgot the forage deal in your dads Hoa lake...every species you mentioned except for muskie provides tons of forage for the bass. Remember that bass regularly and constantly eat fish 1/3 their own length. imagine all the 3"-4" 5"-6" bluegill crappie catfish swimming around hiding from 9-12-15-18 bass (and I promise they are hiding) all the time. Doubtful your bass are lacking forage.

[Bassboss]

The sort answer I have is yes, I think we are.

But as far as I know, there's a relativity good amount of angler harvest here, so I'll let the other guys do it. Plus the lakes have a pretty good population of Northern Pike, which like bass too! lol The lakes I live by have an absolutely out standing fishery, I've never caught a bass that wasn't fat and healthy looking out of these lakes... So I think the natural flow of things is keeping it's self in check very well. I can see places like in texas or other places in the south (with out gators! lol), where largemouth are the top predator, but in norther lakes (and swamps with gators, lol), I don't think we as anglers have to worry about keeping bass to keep the population healthy.

I personally hate keeping bass unless it's once in a blue moon... and really hate keeping smallmouth. I catch em rivers, and they grow slow, so a 15" keeper smallie is not a young fish (I think something like 5- 8 years old if I remember right?), and I wanna keep those growed up genes in the river. There's nothing more special to me then catching a really good river smallie.

[james86]

I don't keep bass because I have no interest in eating them. But I do catch myself thinking people shouldn't eat them. Which is silly because bass are delicious. I really don't know why I'm so against killing them. I used to eat plenty of them when I was little.

[kennethdaysale]

Hey James don't sweat it, it's natural to feel that way, I felt the same for years, but I have found it can be satisfying to give a mess of fish to a family member or needy person especially if you feel those fish need to be removed anyway.

[boloson]

hey kennetdaysale, how do u lease a lake? like a 1 year lease on an apartment?

[kennethdaysale]

Just like people lease a tract of land for a hunt club. Best to lease for much longer than one year.
Speaking of hunt clubs...many of the bigger ones have ponds/lakes that they will "sublet"....

[MallenManson]

Originally Posted by Bassboss

The sort answer I have is yes, I think we are.

But as far as I know, there's a relativity good amount of angler harvest here, so I'll let the other guys do it. Plus the lakes have a pretty good population of Northern Pike, which like bass too! lol The lakes I live by have an absolutely out standing fishery, I've never caught a bass that wasn't fat and healthy looking out of these lakes... So I think the natural flow of things is keeping it's self in check very well. I can see places like in texas or other places in the south (with out gators! lol), where largemouth are the top predator, but in norther lakes (and swamps with gators, lol), I don't think we as anglers have to worry about keeping bass to keep the population healthy.

I personally hate keeping bass unless it's once in a blue moon... and really hate keeping smallmouth. I catch em rivers, and they grow slow, so a 15" keeper smallie is not a young fish (I think something like 5- 8 years old if I remember right?), and I wanna keep those growed up genes in the river. There's nothing more special to me then catching a really good river smallie.

I'd have to say I experience the same thing around here.
Bass aren't as widely eaten around Northern Michigan, as they are in a lot of other places.
With all the Pike, Walleye, Gills, Perch, Trout and Salmon around here, Bass don't end up on too many plates.
Add to the mix, all the people who fish SOLELY for the food, and most bass live to bite another day.
I know lots of fisherman who are always amazed that I "waste" my time fishing for bass

I'm a catch n release guy myself. Not for any higher purpose or anything, just because I prefer cows and pigs to fish.

[james86]

Originally Posted by MallenManson

I'd have to say I experience the same thing around here.
Bass aren't as widely eaten around Northern Michigan, as they are in a lot of other places.
With all the Pike, Walleye, Gills, Perch, Trout and Salmon around here, Bass don't end up on too many plates.
Add to the mix, all the people who fish SOLELY for the food, and most bass live to bite another day.
I know lots of fisherman who are always amazed that I "waste" my time fishing for bass

I'm a catch n release guy myself. Not for any higher purpose or anything, just because I prefer cows and pigs to fish.

Those last two sentences pretty much sum me up too. Bass taste great I just prefer not to clean and cook them.

[Dave63]

We have a problem in one of our local state parks that has a slot limit in effect. It's over run with unders, that nobody ever keeps. The slots are all usually fat and healthy. The overs are giant heads with skinny bodies and look like ****.

[kennethdaysale]

Originally Posted by Dave63

We have a problem in one of our local state parks that has a slot limit in effect. It's over run with unders, that nobody ever keeps. The slots are all usually fat and healthy. The overs are giant heads with skinny bodies and look like ****.

Suggest you keep all the short fish you catch. Odd that your slot fish would be fat but the overs skinny? Instead of keeping all those short fish you might want to try fin-clipping them (especially all the ones 8" or less) this will turn them into immediate and easy to catch food for those big skinny bass. It takes 10 lbs of food for a bass to gain 1 pound. If you know other guys that regularly fish this pond, encourage them to do the same. Depending on the size of the lake and how many fish you clip it might take 2-3-4 seasons...but you will definately see those longer fish begin to bulk up.

[Dave63]

I usually do a few times in the spring. There are three lakes in this state park varying in size between 40 to a little over a hundred acres. May do the fin clipping on the dinks because other than spring, the overs all looks like they're starving by summer.

[kennethdaysale]

Originally Posted by Dave63

I usually do a few times in the spring. There are three lakes in this state park varying in size between 40 to a little over a hundred acres. May do the fin clipping on the dinks because other than spring, the overs all looks like they're starving by summer.

I'd try to talk to one of the Rangers about it. Ask them if they do creel surveys or electro sampling?.....what's the forage base? etc...your paying for it.

[Dave63]

Will do. If I ever see one, LOL. IIRC the slot limit was their solution to the forage situation.

[screwballl]

Part of the problem is that a lot of people believe ONLY in C&R, and belittle anyone who doesn't practice it.
On the other hand there are places where a majority of people keep whatever they catch provided it is within legal limits (like a few lakes in my area that are only in the 65-100 acre size range).

When it comes to bluegill that spawn multiple times per year and keep a decent number then it is fine, but the Bass at these lakes are literally kept as soon as they hit the 12" keeper length limit, even if they are skinny and barely any meat worth cooking from them. This is why bass fishing at these lakes has seriously gone downhill in the past decade. Every single one I have caught are either too small (length and/or girth), and not worth keeping to eat so it is better to release them. Add in that come spring time when spawn starts kicking in and all these people keeping most of the spawning fish before they dropped their eggs, or they dropped the eggs and no are no longer protected, and the numbers are close to non-existent.

Examples: Karick Lake (65 acres) and Bear Lake (107 acres) in the Florida panhandle. I tend to catch at best 1-3 bass per actual bass fishing trip, and they are always in the 8-12" range, only once did I have one close to 16" about 7 years ago.

Yet another lake in the same area (Hurricane Lake, 318 acres) has a MUCH healthier bass population, partially because it is a bit more remote, and people that fish there tend to practice catch and release more often. Of course this lake also had a minimum 18" keeper length for a long time which they only recently (as in July 2010) dropped to the state limit of 12". I fished a small local tourny there in March 2011 and everyone had at least 2-3 fish in the 16-18" range, with a few longer and bigger. I think big fish went just shy of 5 lbs, mine was second largest at 4.5 lbs.

[wallywallace]

i fish a few ponds at these campgrounds max BIG fish is like 1.5, talked to old timers there and before new owner got it and started inforcing the c&r he said it wasn't uncommon to catch a 4-5 lber,