Rod Balance Question

[nofearengineer]

Much has been made of balancing fishing rods. Some companies have even gone so far as to include rod butts to which extra weights can be added.

I'm curious as to what other people would consider to be "proper" balance. For instance, if you were to have a properly balanced rod, and you were to hold it on one finger so that it did not tip one way or the other, where would that point on the rod be for you?

I've been giving a lot of thought to this lately, and haven't come up with a perfect answer yet.

My first assumption was that it should be exactly underneath the reel, where your middle finger would be. However, I've held up a few "high end" rods like G Loomis, Shimano, etc., that even with a reel in the seat, still balance a good 4 or 5 inches in front of the reel.

Add to this the confusing issue of where the rod and reel actually pivot around, which is your wrist, not the reel. So I'm not entirely convinced the center of mass of the rod and reel should even be at the reel itself.

Anyways, I hope this is food for thought, and that some of you can give me some specific ideas, other than "what feels good". I agree with "what feels good" as an end user, but a rod builder / buyer needs to know what is going to feel good before he builds / buys, to my way of thinking.

[Cincinnati Kid]

Leaving the human factor out of it, I believe a rod and reel should be balanced together and the fulcrum should be under the reel (where the hand will go). A rod and reel is a tool, like a hammer, and an unbalanced hammer will fatigue you faster than a balanced one.

[BigBassin144]

I really don't think the actual balance point is as important as how it feels in hand.

When determining how "balanced" a reel is, I do it by how it feels in my hand. If you've ever had a rod that feels tip heavy, you know what I mean.

But if you want to look at it from the the actual balance point, most rods' balance points are above the reel seat. I think the reason for this is, once you add a reel (more weight than the rod it itself) it drasticaly moves the point of balance. Once the reel is on, I think the point of balance moves much clower to the reel and if you palm your reels, it should be about where your first finger (index or middle, depending on how you palm) is on the blank. If you think about it, the first finger on the underside of the blank is the one holding more of the weight of the rod (reel seat and forward) than the finger behind it. This makes sense to me and also explains why certain rods balance better with certain reels.

BB

[nofearengineer]

If you're like me, you certainly buy the one that feels the best, but I'd like to know why it feels the best. I really wish rod makers would publish the balance point of their rods, along with the MMOI (mass moment of inertia). It wouldn't really be a stretch, as they already like to bury us with less useful numbers such as modulus. I think this would help when trying to compare different combinations with reels, i.e a 6.9 oz. Premier, a 8.75 oz. STX, or a 9.5 oz Chronarch. A certain amount of that could be done on paper and anticipated.

[Raul]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Much has been made of balancing fishing rods. Some companies have even gone so far as to include rod butts to which extra weights can be added.

I'm curious as to what other people would consider to be "proper" balance. For instance, if you were to have a properly balanced rod, and you were to hold it on one finger so that it did not tip one way or the other, where would that point on the rod be for you?

I've been giving a lot of thought to this lately, and haven't come up with a perfect answer yet.

My first assumption was that it should be exactly underneath the reel, where your middle finger would be. However, I've held up a few "high end" rods like G Loomis, Shimano, etc., that even with a reel in the seat, still balance a good 4 or 5 inches in front of the reel.

Add to this the confusing issue of where the rod and reel actually pivot around, which is your wrist, not the reel. So I'm not entirely convinced the center of mass of the rod and reel should even be at the reel itself.

Anyways, I hope this is food for thought, and that some of you can give me some specific ideas, other than "what feels good". I agree with "what feels good" as an end user, but a rod builder / buyer needs to know what is going to feel good before he builds / buys, to my way of thinking.

You will never get a proper answer because there is no proper answer, there is no such thing as "proper balance", it depends on what the indiviadual likes and wants. For baitcaster setups I prefer neutral balance, for spinning setups I prefer tip heavy.

[nofearengineer]

I agree with you about balance being a personal taste, Raul. However, there are hard numbers that say what the moment is, and where it balances. I just wish they would supply those numbers, so if you already have a rod you love that has a balance point 1 inch in front of the reel, you can buy a different rod with similar characteristics and not be far off. I seriously hope custom rod builders aren't just using trial and error to find their successful combinations.

[Wishing2BFishing]

"Balance" is a matter of personal preference.

For me, the most important factor is whether I am fishing a tip up or tip down applications.

Example - when I fish worms, stickbaits, flukes, and tubes, I like the weight to be towards the back of the rod since I generally keep the tip up or angled during the retrieve.

When I fish crankbaits, I prefer a balanced rod or even slightly tip heavy.

[TnTom]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

I agree with you about balance being a personal taste, Raul. However, there are hard numbers that say what the moment is, and where it balances. I just wish they would supply those numbers, so if you already have a rod you love that has a balance point 1 inch in front of the reel, you can buy a different rod with similar characteristics and not be far off. I seriously hope custom rod builders aren't just using trial and error to find their successful combinations.

Oh my Fellow Engineer.

I build rods and balance is that point which meets my or my customers needs. Building IS trial and error. Before the rod is finished (glued up) it is cast with every component temporarily attached, then disassembled, then measured.

It may feel/cast good... it may feel/cast bad. If it feels/casts bad, its adjusted and then re-cast again and again and again, measuring for casting accuracy, (cast by the customer). If we like it I take a final set measurements. (1) knife edge on a surface plate and (2) the rod balanced on a blade, I record the distance from butt end (with no components on the blank) and define the pivot point as that point above the knife edge, (plus guide location and number of guides which probably gets changed before its wrapped).

The pivot point is almost always where the "reel center of mass" and reel seat mounting center end up. It may require one or two adjustments fore or aft to reduce "error" or "casting inaccuracies" or "balance" or "feel" before it gets glued. I now have values to use for future builds and a starting point eventually for many different blanks and many different customers and with all the variables available. It all goes into the Access data base I can now make a second rod for the same person using the same type of blank or not and get pretty close to what he wants and finish it maybe in less time than the previous rod unless the blank has some excessive variation in "something". You can see where this goes. No rod is glued up until the customer says glue it up.

All the build testing, the feeling, the test casting is done with the reel that will be used and the bait that will be used in the field. Its finished when it feels right to the customer and he is hitting his target consistently. (A 12" circle at 40' or what ever he defines as his target). It takes about an hour.

Custom rod building is indeed trial and error, with good data collected during the build resulting with a custom made rod meeting your customers exacting needs

A custom rod meets a customers needs. A rack rod is built for masses and meets the needs of the masses. You identified a point 1" in front of the reel seat as the fulcrum on your favorite rod. Use that number as your standard or your "goto" number to chose your next rod. It wont be the same for everyone but probably pretty darn close.

I can't imagine thinking that custom rod building isn't trial and error. As more data is collected, less re-casting / adjusting is needed and for many customers they can call me with what they want and I can build it to the same exacting standards using their history.
I can minimize error or inaccuracy but it cannot be eliminated without trialing. Ideally using good data the trials can be short and sweet and the sweet spot found in the least amount of time in trial but there are numerous variables that can be looked at in finding that sweet spot.

could be called trial and error

St Croix couldn't sell a rod for $300 if they they treated each rod individually. That's why Custom rods cost so much more. It's the time it takes to optimize every variable. Number of guides, type of guides, spacing of guides, positioning the reel all can be optimized but only through trial and error. Every custom rod that's worth its cost goes through a process of optimizing or trial and error. If you don't want to pay for that buy a rack rod.

The big factories have done plenty of it (trial and error) regardless they came up with a batch rod that you can balance at 1" in front of the reel seat if thats what you want for $300.00. Does it matter how it feels then?

Some customers demand more some less and each want the same thing. A rod that feels good they can hit their target with and that is the accomplished through trial and error or optimization of the variables in less than a batch environment. You know ahead of time exactly what your going to get if you made it clear to the builder what you want.

Define Quality

[bassboogieman]

Balance is a personal preference issue. The rods I use are "lighter than air" (LOL), and I would not think of adding any weight (in addition to a reel) to the rod to alter the natural balance. Adding weight would negate the reason I like these rods.

Every reel out there varries marginally in weight. For me, I try to get as close to neutral balance as I can by adding a reel of a weight that allows me to do that. I've gone to magnesium spinning reels to get a better balance on the rods I use for finesse fishing. My personal feeling is that a neutral balance rod is more preferable when fishing weightless, or very lightly weighted plastic for best feel.

When throwing heavy weights, like cranks, spinnerbaits, etc., I don't think a rod that has a balance point slightly forward or slightly towards the handle has any noticable effect on the feel of the rod when in use, because those baits put a slight load on the rod during the retrieve negating the balance point established with the rod not under load.

As the custom builder has said, a perfectly balanced rod may improve casting accuracy, especially with light weight lures. I don't believe the perfect balance can be maintained in any specific rod, unless you have a rod for every lure you want to throw - I can't afford that or have the storage space. LOL.

Of much more importance to me is to have the lightest weight combination of rod and reel I can (afford). It helps me get through an entire day of fishing. I am getting up there in age and have arthritis, so less weight puts less strain on my joints during the day.

[nofearengineer]

TnTom definitely has my number. As an engineer, I'm often guilty of trying to put everything into a neat little box. It's just my hunch, that any fishing rod that weighs the same, and has the same MMOI probably ought to feel the same with a blindfold on, and building that rod should be a repeatable process.

Maybe I'm wrong there, but it seems it would be like cooking. Yes, we all season to taste at the end (fine tuning), but we tend to follow recipes to start with. I would like to have some idea where I'm going when I build my first rod (someday ), rather than just taking some guy's word that X blank, Y grip, and Z rod guides make a "nice rod".

[bassboogieman]

You're making it too difficult. Most major rod manufacturers, St. Croix, Loomis and others sell blanks. Several other's are availalbe, Rainshadow is one that I hear often used. If you've tried a commercial rod that you were particularly pleased with (don't have to own it, try a buddies - you do have a buddy? Stew possibly? OK, I'll stop) start with a blank you're familiar with and go from there. Same with the reel seat - you should have a feel for what you like, full exposed blank, finger grips, etc.. Handle - full or split. cork or synthetic; guides, same deal - go with what you have experience with. It should be a "best practices" exercise, take the best from your experience and combine it into your first effort.
If you try and build a rod for yourself, and build it from suggestions from others - it really ends up not being "your" rod. Once you build your first, look for what can be improved upon as it applies to you and your style of fishing. Your first build is your baseline to be improved upon, using other's suggestions that may appeal to you, and your own investigations. If I had the time and inclination to build my own rod, that's the way I would approach it. You may not agree, but I would want the "fun" of developing MY own perfect rod.

[nofearengineer]

You're missing my point, Boogie. I am a designer. I take enormous pride in being able to learn all I can about something, and then design it as close to perfect as I can the very first time. My business punishes trial and error very harshly, so I guess it's sort of an occupational hazard.

I don't want to build a rod from others' suggestions, though they are welcome. I want to be able to measure a blank, grip, guides, etc. with something other than "seems pretty good...let's see if they work together" before I assemble them. Just because it's my first rod is no reason to just blindly combine components and cross my fingers.

The intent of my original post was to gain an understanding of what others meant when they say "this rod is well balanced". Rather than just an empty phrase, I was looking for some factual, quantifiable rod characteristics. I would bet that most combos a particular fisherman thinks are well-balanced fit within a reasonably small range of parameters, the location of the balance point being one of them. Those parameters would be different for different fishermen and for different applications, too.

For example, Fisherman X might like a combo that weighs 10 oz. and balances 1 inch in front of the reel for jerkbaits, while he likes a combo that weighs 11 oz. and balances 1 inch behind the reel for C-rigging.

Fisherman Y might like a totally different setup.

I'm getting a little frustrated that everyone is telling me I'm making it too hard. How hard is it to weigh your rod and reel, balance it on a knife edge, and write down the numbers? It might be interesting to find out what has been working for you for years.

[TnTom]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

TnTom definitely has my number. As an engineer, I'm often guilty of trying to put everything into a neat little box. It's just my hunch, that any fishing rod that weighs the same, and has the same MMOI probably ought to feel the same with a blindfold on, and building that rod should be a repeatable process.

Maybe I'm wrong there, but it seems it would be like cooking. Yes, we all season to taste at the end (fine tuning), but we tend to follow recipes to start with. I would like to have some idea where I'm going when I build my first rod (someday ), rather than just taking some guy's word that X blank, Y grip, and Z rod guides make a "nice rod".

NoFear,
There is a well established recipe for building a rod and it includes seasoning to taste. It is very specific in all the aspects of construction and minimizes the trial and error - dash of this dash of that - approach to the build.

[CMorg]

Nofe , I just listed to a pod cast of bass edge that had the guy that makes castaway rods , he says you shouldnt have to " fight the tip up " on any rod. Meaning to constantly make an effort to keep the rod tip up. I thought that was interesting , since every one of mine I have to " fight the tip up " he went on to say that that actually takes away from sensitivity and increases fatigue.

My bad , it was the founder of dobyns rods

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

Balance is a personal preference issue. The rods I use are "lighter than air" (LOL), and I would not think of adding any weight (in addition to a reel) to the rod to alter the natural balance. Adding weight would negate the reason I like these rods.

Every reel out there varries marginally in weight. For me, I try to get as close to neutral balance as I can by adding a reel of a weight that allows me to do that. I've gone to magnesium spinning reels to get a better balance on the rods I use for finesse fishing. My personal feeling is that a neutral balance rod is more preferable when fishing weightless, or very lightly weighted plastic for best feel.

When throwing heavy weights, like cranks, spinnerbaits, etc., I don't think a rod that has a balance point slightly forward or slightly towards the handle has any noticable effect on the feel of the rod when in use, because those baits put a slight load on the rod during the retrieve negating the balance point established with the rod not under load.

As the custom builder has said, a perfectly balanced rod may improve casting accuracy, especially with light weight lures. I don't believe the perfect balance can be maintained in any specific rod, unless you have a rod for every lure you want to throw - I can't afford that or have the storage space. LOL.

Of much more importance to me is to have the lightest weight combination of rod and reel I can (afford). It helps me get through an entire day of fishing. I am getting up there in age and have arthritis, so less weight puts less strain on my joints during the day.

Kistler huh ? I going to replace at least 3 of my rods this year for kistlers..