They're at it again....

[kennethdaysale]

I've waited for weeks for a thread/discussion like this to erupt....but now that it has I'm sorta non-plussed. I haven't used lead shot for waterfowling in years and can see the argument there. I have always been a small gov., fewer regs person. There are balances of course, the wheel weight analogy is good. I do however think the Fed gov. does have some responsibility to oversee air-water etc quality. Isn't there a member here who guides on the Potomac? Do yall have any idea what that river would look like today without the Clean Water Act. If you want to have a good debate how about discussing Left/right positions on the Keystone Pipeline! That should be fun and relevant to a fishing forum as well.

[bassboogieman]

That birds accidentally ingest weights makes no difference wether it's lead, tungsten, brass, steel or a rusty nail. The first example is nothing more than an excuse to ban hooks - not lead. So, with the pictures you've only succeded in reinforcing the fact that the argument is NOT about lead, or weights made from other sutstances - it's actually about fishing.

[Dogmatic]

"That's right, that's how I take care of my competition! Those #@$% birds keep eating what should be my catch!"--Infidel

...and how lead weight gets banned.

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by kennethdaysale

I've waited for weeks for a thread/discussion like this to erupt....but now that it has I'm sorta non-plussed. I haven't used lead shot for waterfowling in years and can see the argument there. I have always been a small gov., fewer regs person. There are balances of course, the wheel weight analogy is good. I do however think the Fed gov. does have some responsibility to oversee air-water etc quality. Isn't there a member here who guides on the Potomac? Do yall have any idea what that river would look like today without the Clean Water Act. If you want to have a good debate how about discussing Left/right positions on the Keystone Pipeline! That should be fun and relevant to a fishing forum as well.

...Yeah, that's right, it's been months since our last one, and that was about killing otters! But when it comes to the pipeline you can start.LOL

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

That birds accidentally ingest weights makes no difference wether it's lead, tungsten, brass, steel or a rusty nail. The first example is nothing more than an excuse to ban hooks - not lead. So, with the pictures you've only succeded in reinforcing the fact that the argument is NOT about lead, or weights made from other sutstances - it's actually about fishing.

...actually, if you look, there is a lead weight attached to that hook, and shows how loons most often injest lead...attached to line and hook, that was either left by a lazy a$$ fisherman, or attached to a fish.

[kennethdaysale]

The only reason BO would threaten to veto a pipeline that would create jobs and reduce dependance on imported oil is to pander to the extreme far left environmentalist. There I said it, and I'm not taking it back.
On a similar but completely unrelated topic. Moments ago I'm eating supper and a commercial comes on for the Eggie...a product that will eliminate the hassle of peeling hard boiled eggs. Anybody that is too lazy to run an egg under some running cold water and peel it is asking to starve....do yall know how to starve someone to death that is too lazy to peel an egg?? Hide their food stamps in their work boots.
I mean come on..is this the society we want to be? If you asked me to name the 100 most aggravating time consuming bothersome nuisances of everday life...peeling an egg would not appear.

[jig fisherman]

And do you think that banning lead will erase the problem of lazy fisherman leaving trash? For the most part it probably is people like that who also leave piles of line on the ground. As everyone else has stated it is a direct attack upon our freedom to fish and they must think lead is easier to ban than line, which can also lead to animal deaths.
I'm also quite sure that many anglers would switch to tungsten if it was economical, but it is the same kind of groups that oppose us getting our own tungsten here in America, rather than relying on China who just announced a raise in price on precious metals. Banning lead would prevent many from fishing and damage a billion dollar industry( I think it's $44 billion?), and I see no one benefiting from that.

[kennethdaysale]

Originally Posted by jig fisherman

And do you think that banning lead will erase the problem of lazy fisherman leaving trash? For the most part it probably is people like that who also leave piles of line on the ground. As everyone else has stated it is a direct attack upon our freedom to fish and they must think lead is easier to ban than line, which can also lead to animal deaths.
I'm also quite sure that many anglers would switch to tungsten if it was economical, but it is the same kind of groups that oppose us getting our own tungsten here in America, rather than relying on China who just announced a raise in price on precious metals. Banning lead would prevent many from fishing and damage a billion dollar industry( I think it's $44 billion?), and I see no one benefiting from that.

Probably hard to prove but I am convinced that discarded gobs of fishing line hurt lots more wild fish/birds/turtles/beavers/etc than lead sinkers ever could. This is an extreme example but in 1977 a guy I went to school with got his cutoof jean shorts hung on a bunch of mono tangled around a dock piling while he was swimming and drowned.

[champman]

Well fellas', here we go again. You know what they say" a picture brings out a million crazy a#$h*%#". If you took a photo of every deer hit on the highways in this country all the "I have no real answer but I do love to b#&$h" people would have us all riding horses . Look, I love the eco system as much as they do but the lead I would really, really like to ban is the one our boys are dodging in those Godless deserts half way around the world. I wonder how much time and money the tree hugers have put toward that problem. I don't think our troups parents cry themselves to sleep at night worrying if a duck ate too many 1/4 oz.ers today. Get real people! I'm getting off of my soapbox now.

[bassboogieman]

actually, if you look, there is a lead weight attached to that hook,

So what? The metal doesn't matter. The ban targets LEAD, but the exact SAME ISSUE will exist regardless of the metal used as weight. So why target lead? Several reasons, it's cheap, easy to mold, paint and accessible to most fishermen. Remove this particular metal and fishing becomes more expensive, so some can no longer afford to fish on the same scale as they did with lead - so fishing declines (the real agenda here). Lead can be an environmental hazzard so it grabs a headline - although in it's solid form very little hazzard exists. It's the vapor that was hazzardous in leaded gas, and it's an ingestion issue in paint. Lead as it's used in fishing is not hazzardous to humans. But these crackpots do not make any distinctions - it would defeat their purpose.

So who gives a crap about a few birds? Not the numbskulls that involve themselves in protests such as this one - because banning lead (in fishing) won't save any water birds. Those birds will continue to ingest metal weights, jigs, etc. and die, exactly as before.

I'd love to see a few thousand dead cormorants on the Potomac, the Upper Chesapeake or the Great Lakes. I wish we could carry a shotgun (with lead shot) on board and shoot the damn things, and a few dozen gulls while we're at it. That would definitely help the fish as well as the environment more so than banning lead for fishing. Unfortunately cormorants are currently a protected species - who's freakin' brain strom was that?

[joedog]

what laws can we pass to prevent these mishaps.


http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoS63Cu...%3fITO=socialm


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http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoTD1Ee...tml%3fimage=10

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

...actually, if you look, there is a lead weight attached to that hook, and shows how loons most often injest lead...attached to line and hook

I must admit, I have been thoroughly trounced. I'm sure the last thing that loon thinks when it dies from the hook it swallowed is "whew...thank goodness I didn't get lead poisoning."

[Bassboss]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

I'm not going to bore you with anymore long diatribes on this topic, you all have Google and can do your own research, but just don't say it doesn't happen...

Ok I see your point, fishing and birds don't get along and the bird sometime get the ****tty end of stick. BUT! Wouldn't those pics be exactly the same if lead was banned? The lead sinkers would be replaced by steel, brass or tungsten.

[bassboogieman]

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner....................

[Dogmatic]

"BUT! Wouldn't those pics be exactly the same if lead was banned? The lead sinkers would be replaced by steel, brass or tungsten. "--Bassboss.

The replacing of lead with other forms of weight however wouldn't lead to lead toxicity in the birds.
Figure 1: Comparison of Lead and Alternatives

Material Relative Toxicity to Waterfowl North American Availability
Lead High Excellent
Steel Low Good
Bismuth/tin Low Moderate
Tungsten/bismuth/tin Low NA
Zinc Moderate NA
Molybdenum/polymer Moderate(?) * NA
Tungsten/polymer Low (?) * NA
* Probable toxicity of molybdenum and tungsten polymers is indicated as moderate or low, based on the known toxicology of these metals.
Source: http://www.ec.gc.ca/cws-scf/pub/ops/op88/table7.html


http://www.tufts.edu/vet/loons/

http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/lead_sinkers.htm

http://www.parislanding.com/toxic_shot.htm

Just some light reading for y'all to ponder...

To set the record straight, I really just like playing the "Devil's Advocate" here, my opinion on the subject is inconsequential. I would like to "motivate" individuals to get involved, get informed on issues, and end "knee jerk" reactions to important topics.
In full disclosure, I use lead,(I just bought jig molds so I can make my own), you can't escape it(And no one has explained how a "lead ban" ends fishing?). But this does not change the fact that this topic is important and we need to look into how we change, or adapt. Poisoning our environment, no matter how little you might think it affects that environment is no good way to be the thoughtful caretakers that God intended us to be.

...Now on to the Pipeline...I don't think this is an acceptable thread(Causual Fishing Discussion...?). So Kenneth...where to?

[kennethdaysale]

But this does not change the fact that this topic is important and we need to look into how we change, or adapt while poisoning our environment

...Now on to the Pipeline...I don't think this is an acceptable thread(Causual Fishing Discussion...?). So Kenneth...where to?[/QUOTE]
NFRT?

[keithdog]

The way I see it, it is just another example of the Feds intruding on our lives trying to decide for us what better for our lives and environment. Take for example, the effort of the feds to eliminate incondecent light bulbs in favor of flourescents bulbs. The idea if I have this right is the flourescents are better for the environment because they require less energy, which will reduce the electricity production, which will require less coal to be dug from the earth, ect. Never mind the fact that a flourescent bulb that is dropped and beaks practically requires calling the county haz mat team in for cleanup because of the mercury content. I just want the feds out of my life. Protect our nations security, protect our boarders, and deal with international affairs and leave my fishing choices alone.

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by keithdog

I just want the feds out of my life. Protect our nations security, protect our boarders, and deal with international affairs and leave my fishing choices alone.

...until ACME Drilling Co. dumps the waste water from their drilling operation in your favorite fishing hole, and kills all the fish.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by Dogmatic

...until ACME Drilling Co. dumps the waste water from their drilling operation in your favorite fishing hole, and kills all the fish.

State governments can handle it just fine.

[ChooChoo]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

State governments can handle it just fine.

So all states that are down river have the right to enforce their environmental regulations?

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by ChooChoo

So all states that are down river have the right to enforce their environmental regulations?

(Assuming the Federal model was abandoned...)

No, but they can sue the offender, or the upstream state. Individuals would rarely sit idle and let someone else pollute.

Since the Feds seized control of our waterways, you and I no longer have standing to sue on our own. Now we have to sit and wait til our Congressman receives the proper bribes in order to do anything about it.

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

State governments can handle it just fine.

...if they catch 'em

...Yeah, right. Because state governments are so good, efficient, and honest...LOL Wow, I think our DOT, DEP, DNR and F&BC are some of the most corrupt, and inept organizations in our state, and most sportsmen here agree. And why not use class actions?

[nofearengineer]

State governments are no more corrupt or inefficient than our beloved federal government.

I am not a fan of class action lawsuits. I find it very disturbing that an attorney I've never met can sue someone else in my name, and put the onus on me to disavow myself of the lawsuit, otherwise be stuck with the consequences.

Look, our system is imperfect. We can all point out problems until we're blue in the face. That's the easy part. No system is going to work as long as we continue to fill the offices with greedy, corrupt men.

[bamabassman]

bryce, that last statement is and always will be the most honest and true. but now how do we find a "politician" who is honest? TOTATLY honest. there is no such person. jsut my opion.

[Dogmatic]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

look, our system is imperfect. We can all point out problems until we're blue in the face. That's the easy part. No system is going to work as long as we continue to fill the offices with greedy, corrupt men.

.....amen!