are there STILL doubters?

[WTL]

Penn State the past few years has been a consistent program, top 25 each year. Thats the amount of credit I give them...to 25, maybe #20

Versus Oregon State, what credit do they deserve again? Who have they beaten?

And virginia tech, who if we were just basing this on accomplishments this season, would be ranked about #95 in America. I'll assume they are a little better than that though.

What we are talking here is two different things;
1) Quality of a team so far based on their wins alone
2)How good you think a team is, regardless of schedule so far

In both those categories, I think Alabama is right near the top. There are just 4 games so its kinda pointless to talk too much about the 1st question, but as the season progresses and we play UF, UT, LSU, AU, SCar and so on and so forth and Boise plays Nevada and then a bunch of nothings, well, it gonna look worse and worse for the blue boys.

[carolina-rig-01]

This seems to keep coming back to Boise State schedule (partly my fault). Which I agree is a joke. But I have an honest question. How far in advance are these schedule made up? I was told a long time ago that they were made out several years in advance which kinda makes sense. If this is the case then I don't know that anyone can blame Boise State for their schedule being weak. Can it be held against them in the rankings? Absolutley and in all honesty I believe that it should be. But I can see how it would be hard for them to look into a crystal ball and see that they would have this kind of program down the road, given it wasn't too long ago they were a juco program. That being said I am not sitting here and claiming that they deserve to be ranked #1, I agree that their schedule down the stretch is just going to be too weak to justify that. However if the Alabama's and TCU's end up with a loss and Boise State runs the table I think they deserve to be in consideration for a Title shot. And basing this on my opinion and not on numbers or schedules, I honestly believe that they might be the best team in the nation right now. I know there are a lot of Alabama fans on here and that is great, I have nothing against Alabama. But I just honestly am not convinced that they are a #1 team, like I said earlier time will tell.

[WTL]

It is true that Boise States schedule is weak through no fault of their own. They have tried to schedule more powerful teams. They cant. The pac 10 doesnt want them cause of academics. Virginia Tech was a good try, but as it turns out VT isnt that good. Thats a shame for Boise. I really wish they were in a better conference for everyone's sake.

Still, this isn't a situation where we give teams the benefit of the doubt just because they have a crappy schedule forced upon them. There are no brownie points given just cause its not your fault that the schedule was weak. The national champion has to have a resume. It is not as simple as deciding who the best 2 teams are at the end of the year and making them play. One team that might be playing the best football in December might have slipped up and had 2 losses early; they still dont deserve a title shot. Or you could have the Boise situation where you have a very good team, which has the double edged blessing/curse of having to play nobody...

The season is the distinguishing characteristic when deciding who should play for the NC. Thats why I am against a playoff. Playoffs make the season much less important. In all the other sports, you win for what you do down the stretch - for the last 3 games. In college football, you are on the hook for the entire enchelada. I find that to be the great thing about big time CFB. You have to keep in mind that in College Football, the national championship criteria is different, and you must account for that until they change the system (hopefully never).

[bcklash]

Originally Posted by WTL

It is true that Boise States schedule is weak through no fault of their own. They have tried to schedule more powerful teams. They cant. The pac 10 doesnt want them cause of academics. Virginia Tech was a good try, but as it turns out VT isnt that good. Thats a shame for Boise. I really wish they were in a better conference for everyone's sake.

Still, this isn't a situation where we give teams the benefit of the doubt just because they have a crappy schedule forced upon them. There are no brownie points given just cause its not your fault that the schedule was weak. The national champion has to have a resume. It is not as simple as deciding who the best 2 teams are at the end of the year and making them play. One team that might be playing the best football in December might have slipped up and had 2 losses early; they still dont deserve a title shot. Or you could have the Boise situation where you have a very good team, which has the double edged blessing/curse of having to play nobody...

The season is the distinguishing characteristic when deciding who should play for the NC. Thats why I am against a playoff. Playoffs make the season much less important. In all the other sports, you win for what you do down the stretch - for the last 3 games. In college football, you are on the hook for the entire enchelada. I find that to be the great thing about big time CFB. You have to keep in mind that in College Football, the national championship criteria is different, and you must account for that until they change the system (hopefully never).

It's exciting to watch'em vote for whoever they want to be in the National Chanpionship game. CFB needs a playoff system. Ther will never be a true champion until a team wins a playoff system with 8 or 10 of the best teams in the playoffs.

[3dkicker]

Originally Posted by CamG

Sorry I struck a nerve.

Got to defend my schools!!! JMU and UMass grad here!!! Don't be messin' with my schools!!!

The news coverage was/is so VT biased in VA it's ridiculous.

[3dkicker]

WTL - I believe that every other NCAA championship in all the other sports is determined by a play off system. If play off's are that bad then why have them in the other sports?? Why is football the only one done differently? Doesn't make much sense.

[CamG]

Yes...college football needs a playoff system. If there was one in place, we wouldn't even be speaking of Boise State....

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WTL

It is true that Boise States schedule is weak through no fault of their own. They have tried to schedule more powerful teams. They cant. The pac 10 doesnt want them cause of academics. Virginia Tech was a good try, but as it turns out VT isnt that good. Thats a shame for Boise. I really wish they were in a better conference for everyone's sake.

Still, this isn't a situation where we give teams the benefit of the doubt just because they have a crappy schedule forced upon them. There are no brownie points given just cause its not your fault that the schedule was weak. The national champion has to have a resume. It is not as simple as deciding who the best 2 teams are at the end of the year and making them play. One team that might be playing the best football in December might have slipped up and had 2 losses early; they still dont deserve a title shot. Or you could have the Boise situation where you have a very good team, which has the double edged blessing/curse of having to play nobody...

The season is the distinguishing characteristic when deciding who should play for the NC. Thats why I am against a playoff. Playoffs make the season much less important. In all the other sports, you win for what you do down the stretch - for the last 3 games. In college football, you are on the hook for the entire enchelada. I find that to be the great thing about big time CFB. You have to keep in mind that in College Football, the national championship criteria is different, and you must account for that until they change the system (hopefully never).

Without a doubt college football needs some type of playoff system. There is no way that you can possibly be fair in eleminating all but two teams from the National Championship otherwise. I mean if Alabama is #1 at the end of the season good for them. But you can't know for sure that they are the best team in the nation until they beat a host of other teams in a do or die atmosphere. I mean if Alabama goes on to beat Florida and South Carolina and is at #1 at the end of the season good for them, but they still should be able to beat whoever else is in the top 10 to be #1. The only way to accomplish this is by a playoff system where they along with other teams are put on the spot in a do or die situation just like all other sports.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by CamG

Yes...college football needs a playoff system. If there was one in place, we wouldn't even be speaking of Boise State....

Unfortunatley we will never know for sure. But I still say that Boise State is as strong as anybody on offense, and stronger than most. And they are a lot more physical than people give them credit for on defense. I really think they are capable of beating anyone in college football, regardless of their schedule.

[bamabassman]

ok.....look gang. i didn't mean to start this debate we had last year. i was only wanting to brag on my player mark ingram a little. lets not get too overheated on this ok? playoff or not, there will be controversary no matter what.

example; say bama plays notre dame in round 1, bama ranked 1 notre dame ranked 10. notre dame wins (dadnabbit@#$%^%$#!!!!), BUT everyone knows bama is the better team. just not their day right? we lose.

now notre dame loses to the number 4 team, and so on and so forth.

anyway the number 5 team wins the final game. but everyone knows that the number 5 team couldn't beat the number 4 team if they were matched up in a game. now who is the better team? i think that if there were a playoff it would downplay who is actually be the better team, injuries, and so forth are also a key factor. take last years game between bama and texas. (just an example kory ok?) bama knocked out texas' QB in teh first quarter. bad luck right? well i know for certain that there are a LOT of folks that are still saying to this day "it would be different if mccoy was injured." not kory gang, he said nothing like this. jsut some other people on other sites, like espn and so forth.so i am now having mixed thoughts on the playoff system. i used to be all for it. but i see wtl's point on the thought of having the PERFECT season. it doesn't always happen that way now. we have had national champions who have had 1-2 losses quite a few times over the years.
but it is the ideal of having that PERFECT season where no one loses a game that does drive these schools athaletic departments. maybe i am wrong, i dunno. i jsut want bama to win. just win baby (al davis), hahahaha.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by bamabassman

ok.....look gang. i didn't mean to start this debate we had last year. i was only wanting to brag on my player mark ingram a little. lets not get too overheated on this ok? playoff or not, there will be controversary no matter what.

example; say bama plays notre dame in round 1, bama ranked 1 notre dame ranked 10. notre dame wins (dadnabbit@#$%^%$#!!!!), BUT everyone knows bama is the better team. just not their day right? we lose.

now notre dame loses to the number 4 team, and so on and so forth.

anyway the number 5 team wins the final game. but everyone knows that the number 5 team couldn't beat the number 4 team if they were matched up in a game. now who is the better team? i think that if there were a playoff it would downplay who is actually be the better team, injuries, and so forth are also a key factor. take last years game between bama and texas. (just an example kory ok?) bama knocked out texas' QB in teh first quarter. bad luck right? well i know for certain that there are a LOT of folks that are still saying to this day "it would be different if mccoy was injured." not kory gang, he said nothing like this. jsut some other people on other sites, like espn and so forth.so i am now having mixed thoughts on the playoff system. i used to be all for it. but i see wtl's point on the thought of having the PERFECT season. it doesn't always happen that way now. we have had national champions who have had 1-2 losses quite a few times over the years.
but it is the ideal of having that PERFECT season where no one loses a game that does drive these schools athaletic departments. maybe i am wrong, i dunno. i jsut want bama to win. just win baby (al davis), hahahaha.

Like you said, I didn't say that the game would have been different had Mccoy not been hurt. Like you I have heard a lot of people saying that. Do I think that the game would have been different? Not a doubt in my mind. However I refuse to make excuses for the loss, Texas had plenty of chances and in all rights probably should have won the game anyways. But Gilbert took way too long to get his feet under him and in my opinion Mac Brown took too long before he turned him loose and allowed him to open things up and throw the ball down field. Not to mention there were a lot of dropped passes that didn't help, and champions don't make those mistakes. You won, we lost (man that was painful lol) and that is how it goes. Injuries are a huge part of the game.

Now for the subject at hand. I agree that just because a #10 team beats a #1 team doesn't mean they are actually a better team. But we have those same flaws in the system we have now. I mean right now it is all speculation on who could beat who, and teams that probably don't deserve to be ranked in a certain spot, get ranked there none the less because in theory they would beat the teams ranked below them if they would have played. In a playoff system it's not who should beat who, or who could beat who, but it's who beat who on that day that moves on. No pissing and moaning because we deserved a Title shot or we got screwed. You either won and moved on or you didn't and nobody to blame but yourself if you don't. And yes injuries could play a role in that but like we established earlier, injuries are part of the game and that's just how it goes.

As far as I know John you didn't start anything that is negative. Hell I think that a little debate over things like this is a good thing, we're not all going to have the same opinion on this and there is nothing wrong with that. I know I'm not getting upset or mad over anything anyone has said and I hope everyone else knows I don't mean to upset them. It's just a discussion amongst friends as far as I know.

[WatterBoy]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

Without a doubt college football needs some type of playoff system. There is no way that you can possibly be fair in eliminating all but two teams from the National Championship otherwise. ...

If you can't possibly be fair in eliminating all but two teams from the National Championship, then how many teams are going to be in your playoff system? Eight? With the same argument you used to say you can't possibly eliminate all but 2 teams the way it is now, how can you distinguish any differently between teams 8, 9, 10, etc. in order to get down to 8 teams? And so the argument goes no matter how many teams you want to have in your playoffs.

This whole discussion is a big part of why I think we won't see a playoff system any time soon -- because the way it is now, college football fans are having these discussions all season long and there is national championship talk and debate going on basically from the start of the season. I'm not sure we'd see that with a playoff system, at least not after it had been around a few years anyway.

The one part I think is silly is having pre-season and early season polls that count for anything. I think they should wait until after at least week 4 and then start have voters' polls.

I love discussions like we have in this thread. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it and we can all toss out our rationale for thinking the way we do about it.

Another part of why I like the bowls, although it was MUCH better when there were about half as many of them, is because I used to love bowl season as a kid. And it was all culminated with all the New Year's Day bowl games. Now they drag it out with single games for several days after NYD. It's sort of anticlimactic for me this way, but that's the way it's going to stay I'm afraid.

Oh, and one last thought, I don't buy the argument that just because "every other sport has a playoff system" that makes it right and necessary for college football to have one also. Just because the other major sports of basketball, football and hockey have games that end based on when a clock runs out, that doesn't mean that baseball should change and be the same way.
.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WatterBoy

If you can't possibly be fair in eliminating all but two teams from the National Championship, then how many teams are going to be in your playoff system? Eight? With the same argument you used to say you can't possibly eliminate all but 2 teams the way it is now, how can you distinguish any differently between teams 8, 9, 10, etc. in order to get down to 8 teams? And so the argument goes no matter how many teams you want to have in your playoffs.

This whole discussion is a big part of why I think we won't see a playoff system any time soon -- because the way it is now, college football fans are having these discussions all season long and there is national championship talk and debate going on basically from the start of the season. I'm not sure we'd see that with a playoff system, at least not after it had been around a few years anyway.

The one part I think is silly is having pre-season and early season polls that count for anything. I think they should wait until after at least week 4 and then start have voters' polls.

I love discussions like we have in this thread. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it and we can all toss out our rationale for thinking the way we do about it.

Another part of why I like the bowls, although it was MUCH better when there were about half as many of them, is because I used to love bowl season as a kid. And it was all culminated with all the New Year's Day bowl games. Now they drag it out with single games for several days after NYD. It's sort of anticlimactic for me this way, but that's the way it's going to stay I'm afraid.

Oh, and one last thought, I don't buy the argument that just because "every other sport has a playoff system" that makes it right and necessary for college football to have one also. Just because the other major sports of basketball, football and hockey have games that end based on when a clock runs out, that doesn't mean that baseball should change and be the same way.
.

Good point. However this conversation is basically about the championship game and with common sense I think it's safe to say that if you take the top 10 ranked teams then you will have the best team in the nation in there somewhere. You are right though, you would still have teams that are ranked 11 or 12 that would complain that they should have got into the playoffs. But the truth in the matter is that if you draw the line at 10 teams it's safe to say you would probably not be keeping the best team in the nation out of the playoffs. There would have to be a lot more thought put into it than a couple of yahoos on a fishing site can put into it for it to work, and even then it might not be perfect but it would be a better system than what we have now regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I love bowl week (or bowl month as it is now). Yeah it means you end up watching 2 teams you have never heard of before playing to be the champions in a bowl that you have never heard of. But it's still football and you usually do end up seeing some good games as a result.

Maybe the "because every other spot does it" isn't the best argument for a playoff system, but I still think it makes a good point. I am not talking about doing away with bowl games at all. Maybe we could just use the bigger bowls as part of the playoff system somehow. But you said that just because other sports have a playoff system doesn't mean that college football should, so what do you think would make a playoff system a bad idea?

[WTL]

I'm not gonna get back into this debate with everyone. I just want to encourage people to take a lot of serious thought about what they think should happen, and really consider the alternatives, consider the weak points of your own side...a book could be written about this discussion. And that book shouldn't be about how many teams are in a playoff, but rather, what will change with a playoff..what will be better, what will be worse, and do you think its a good trade.

I don't.

[3dkicker]

Originally Posted by WatterBoy

Oh, and one last thought, I don't buy the argument that just because "every other sport has a playoff system" that makes it right and necessary for college football to have one also. .

Then why does division IAA, II, and III football have playoffs? When you can explain why 3 of 4 football divisions use the same playoff system, the same as all the other NCAA sports, and just 1 doesn't then you'll have an arguement.

Bama - Why you stirring up the hornets nest and then trying to settle down the bees???? We all know that Alabama is only the second or third best team in the country.......

[bcklash]

Originally Posted by WTL

I'm not gonna get back into this debate with everyone. I just want to encourage people to take a lot of serious thought about what they think should happen, and really consider the alternatives, consider the weak points of your own side...a book could be written about this discussion. And that book shouldn't be about how many teams are in a playoff, but rather, what will change with a playoff..what will be better, what will be worse, and do you think its a good trade.

I don't.

You will have a true National Champion........

[bamabassman]

3d..i jsut wanted to get some honey before the bees get back to the hive.

here is what i want to know......

how can you use a rainking system to get the 8 teams? impossible cause there will be teams that have 3 or 4 losses that will not be in the playoff. if oyu are gonna have a playoff system, you HAVE to do it in a way that is fair to ALL division I schools. it is impossible to do this as of right now. you can't "vote" a team just because. if it were up to voters, there would be so many teams in it would not be fair. for real. you would have to have ALL teams play in their conference, then go on the play the winner of another conference and so on and so forth. this will leave out NOTRE DAME right off the bat (which is fine by me, hehehe, sorry keithdog, lmao.). and some other schools that are not in a conference.
then by doing that, you will have schools go to another conference that is easier to win just so they could go to the playoffs.

what then?

[flfireman]

Lock the major conferences from moving, combine some of the smaller conferences to become equal size. Then initiate a conf. championship game. After that you could begin to align things for a playoff w/ equal participation from the conferences. The smaller bowls could be used for these games, then winner from each bowl move to another bowl and so on,then have a BCS Champ game in mid January. Yes, this would cut a lot of schools out of bowl appearances, but the bowls would still make the money. Ultimately that's all bowl games come down to-MONEY! Until someone comes up with the answer I will continue to support the present system, flaws and all. By the way I don't believe Boise and TCU should be ranked where they are. Schedule,schedule, schedule.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by bamabassman

you can't "vote" a team just because. if it were up to voters, there would be so many teams in it would not be fair.

Isn't that pretty much what's going on now anyways? Teams are ranked where they are because of polls and a computer.

[bcklash]

Originally Posted by flfireman

Lock the major conferences from moving, combine some of the smaller conferences to become equal size. Then initiate a conf. championship game. After that you could begin to align things for a playoff w/ equal participation from the conferences. The smaller bowls could be used for these games, then winner from each bowl move to another bowl and so on,then have a BCS Champ game in mid January. Yes, this would cut a lot of schools out of bowl appearances, but the bowls would still make the money. Ultimately that's all bowl games come down to-MONEY! Until someone comes up with the answer I will continue to support the present system, flaws and all. By the way I don't believe Boise and TCU should be ranked where they are. Schedule,schedule, schedule.

I like it--you done good fireman.

[bcklash]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

Isn't that pretty much what's going on now anyways? Teams are ranked where they are because of polls and a computer.

Agree--Va Tech is way over ranked every year because ESPN likes'em and that sways poll voters

[3dkicker]

Bama - ND would have to join a conference if they wanted to play for the national championship. If they don't then it's their decision. Not hard if you ask me.

[BassinBandit]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

Isn't that pretty much what's going on now anyways? Teams are ranked where they are because of polls and a computer.

Thats exactly what they are doing. The NFL only ranks above college football because of its playoff system. College football has a great season but an probably the worst post season (except for Nascar and BASS) ever. The bowl system is pathetic. Maybe next year we can have the Bassfishin.com bowl lord knows it wouldn't be hard. If you really want to find the national champion you put the top 8 teams in a playoff and let the teams determine the winner. Right now college football doesn't let the teams determine the winners it lets computers (that can't measure a true team), or a bunch of biased farts that most probably have never played football in their lives. Its sad and pathetic. Why do you think the Superbowl is more watched then the national championship game. Its because the Superbowl provides a true champion not a team a computer and a bunch of sorry writers picked.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

Congrats to your Bama boys. I humbly retract my statement of Florida being a hurdle. At least it wasn't a shut out. hahahaha

[bamabassman]

well i ain't too happy with our offense tonight bubba. the DEFENSE won this game. florida made too many mistakes too. they need a center very badly. but we won the game. maybe we will put a first half and second half together before it is over with.