Line breaking at the knot

[Fishnngolfn]

I am using 20# orange Suffix braid tied (J-knot) to a 4' to 5' 12# Berkley Vanish fluoro leader (can't find the P-line leader line in stores). I am tying the fluoro leader to the 3/0 exg gammy hook using a reverse cinch knot. I caught 4 (1 - 1.5lb) bass before the next hook set broke at the knot where I tie the fluoro onto the hook. I am having to pull each one of these guys threw some heavy weeds after I hook them. They arrive at the bank with about 1 pound of weeds. I retied a new hook and caught 2 more fish and then lost another one due to line breaking at the knot. I will say that the knot broke once while retying the new hook. It broke when cinching the knot. Why is the knot at the hook breaking? I have used the reverse cinch knot many times with mono and never had it break. Is it breaking because the knot is weakened from the fish hitting the lure? All of the hits were very large topwater hits or hits when the lure hit the water. I know everyone's view on vanish but I have not had it break as a leader. It is just breaking at the knot but only after I catch several fish.

Here is the reverse cinch knot that I am tying - Reverse cinch or half blood knot

[Jim80]

The knot is breaking on the fluoro right ? You could just just be tightening the knot to fast weaking the fluoro a bit . I have been main lining the vanish due to not having the other brands in stores near me as well . Just keep checking for nicks and you should be fine .

jim

[dodgeguy]

your problem is the vanish .it sucks!!!all flouro needs to be wet when tied but vanish is the worst flouro ever made and is known for this problem.try some seguar invizx if you really feel you need a leader.

[Fishnngolfn]

I think the line is breaking at the knot since the leader is the same length after I lose the hook. I think the line my be getting nicked a bit when the fish bite because when I try to tie the next knot, the line will break. I noticed the line was a bit frayed near the end. I know Berkley vanish sucks as the main line but I was told that it was a decent leader. It has worked well for me so far, but this trip I had two knot breaks. I am just using the Vanish until I purchase the PLine CFX leader material.

[dodgeguy]

that may cost you the fish of a lifetime!!!

[Lancer6]

Originally Posted by Fishnngolfn

I think the line is breaking at the knot since the leader is the same length after I lose the hook. I think the line my be getting nicked a bit when the fish bite because when I try to tie the next knot, the line will break. I noticed the line was a bit frayed near the end. I know Berkley vanish sucks as the main line but I was told that it was a decent leader. It has worked well for me so far, but this trip I had two knot breaks. I am just using the Vanish until I purchase the PLine CFX leader material.

EffinGee!
I turn my back for a minute and....#&$%#@!
PLEASE, do NOT trust that Vanish crap for anything remotely related to the "system" laboriously I outlined for you.
If you can't find CFX locally, break down and order some from BPS. I hate for you to have to pay shipping for so small item but CFX is a critical component. Perhaps some of the other on-line tackle emporia would be worth searching since some offer free shipping with orders over a certain amount (you could carefully select enough goodies to qualify,) or have lower shipping rates. In fact, why not order more than one spool of CFX? You could order TWO of the test you will use most often, say #12, and one in #15 or #20, then maybe some new lures...whatever it takes...to reach the magic number.
Are you LIBERALLY slobbering on the knots as you SLOWLY tighten them? That is absolutely ESSENTIAL to knot survival, especially with fluoro of any type or fluoro-sheathed lines such as P-Line FloroClear. BTW, if you cannot obtain CFX just now, trash the Vanish and get a spool of #12 FloroClear to use for leader until you CAN get CFX. Buy the 250-300 yd spool for around 10 bux and you'll then have a great line for use in all non-braid situations except when tossing small TW lures such as Tiny Torpedos and Pop 'Rs.
Although wetting knots is critical with ANY line or leader material it's even moreso with fluoro since the stuff heats up dramatically under friction, thus weakening the line/knot.
Yes, nicking other than at the knot may be occurring too. Please check your guides, especially at the rod top, for minute flaws that may be damaging the line/leader. Do this by using a cotton-tipped swab (Can you say "Q-Tip"?) and twirling it about in the guide...firmly. If ANY, even one tiny fiber, of cotton is stuck in the guide then you have a problem...cracked/nicked guide=death to line/leader.
Please, buddy, dump the Vanish. Use a good plain mono if you must, until you get THE RIGHT STUFF!

Jeebus!

L6

[links_man2]

If fishing heavy weeds why even use the leader, just use braid. That's where it is at it's best. Even in clear water if fishing heavy weeds they aren't going to really distinguish between line and weeds.

[Fishnngolfn]

I had another knot break two nights ago. Three knots break in two days. The vanish is gone.

The reason I use a leader is I am having great difficulty seeing my line on the water. Old age is catching up on me. When I fish weightless plastics, my line is very loose and I have to watch it or I miss some bites. I use a hivis orange braid to see the line. Through my own personal experience at my ponds, I have noticed that the fish see the line as well. They don't see the moss green braid but neither can I. I like using the leader. I guess I just need to break down and order the good stuff online.

Hey Lancer, sometimes you just need to let the student make their own mistakes and realize that the teacher was correct.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by links_man2

If fishing heavy weeds why even use the leader, just use braid. That's where it is at it's best. Even in clear water if fishing heavy weeds they aren't going to really distinguish between line and weeds.

That's exactly what I was thinking! Either that or a good mono in 15 lb or higher.
I have to agree with the comments on Vanish, I do NOT like that stuff at all. For all my flouro leaders I use Seaguar Carbon Pro and use the palomar at the business end. I tie it "loose" then cinch it with lots of saliva. I have very few knot breaks (even the best should never claim 100% success, regardless of the line they use).

[Abbeysdad]

I had a knot fail yesterday! I was using a 10# Floroclear leader on 30# spiderwire braid.
I was working a T rigged Gulp worm and had a fish take it. I waited while he got it good, then set the hook - it felt like somethin heavy on the other end, then nothing at all! I retrieved my line to find nothing but braid. I had used the rig for many casts over 2-3 outings and so I'm convinced that the error of my ways was knot wear and believe I should tie a new knot every time out.
I'm thinking that the J-knot is good, but if the leader is long enough to travel through the guides (and they almost always are) the knot will abraid ever so slightly in the eyelets and this will eventually cause the filament to break and the knot to fail.

(I too have yet to mail away for 'special' leader material. However, having spent a lifetime working in a monofilament extrusion plant, 'special' monofilaments for leader material are more marketing hype than special engineering. e.g. what good would any monofilament be if it had no knot strength so you couldn't tie anything on the end of it?!)

[Fishnngolfn]

I don't have the J-knot wear and mine go through at least two guides when casting. I put a touch of gorilla glue on the knot. I was also told to use rubber cement to help it though the guides, but I haven't tried rubber cement yet. Sometimes if the leader is short enough I won't reel the knot into the guides before casting. Obviously, you have to have some clearance around you went casting a line that has 4 to 5' of line exposed. You also lose quite a bit of distance. I have found my best results are when I only have to cast around 40 feet. I am more accurate and it makes me choose spots rather than just blindly throwing into areas.

[Abbeysdad]

Originally Posted by Fishnngolfn

I don't have the J-knot wear and mine go through at least two guides when casting. I put a touch of gorilla glue on the knot.

If you can feel the knot as it passes through the guides (and I'm pretty sure you can) then there is some degree of wear. It may not be visible to the naked eye, but I can assure you that there is some wear. There is also a lot to be said for the condition of the eyelets and whether they are stainless or ceramic coated (ceramic being better). (Nearly all separator guides in manufacture is ceramic these days).
Having 'said' that, a drop of super glue could make all the difference as in addition to securing the knot, it also provides a protective coating.

[Fishnngolfn]

The protective coating is what I think helps in this case. The knot should be secure without the glue if it was tied properly. It takes me about 5 minutes to tie that stinking J-knot but I make sure I do it the night before so I have plenty of time and room.

What would be a good reliable knot to tie the fluoro to the hook? Improved clinch? Half blood? Palomer?

[Lilmoosecountry]

Upon tightening the line i always wet it before i cinch it.

[jmartin]

F&G try P-line I use 20 pound on my Med heavy Caster and I pulled a 30 pound snapping turtle up out of the mud last weekend and landed it in the boat. Needless to say he drug the boat and anchor till I got him in.
BTW.... a 30 pound snapper is like reeling in a small block 350

[Fishnngolfn]

I always wet the line before during and after the knot. I have never had a problem with the reverse cinch knot (or half blood knot) when tying mono. Maybe it is just the Vanish and that it truly does suck. I will soon find out once I receive my order of PLine CFX fluoro leader line.

PS. Does anyone want to purchase a 150 yard spool of Vanish? It only has 20 feet of line used.

[jmartin]

I had Vanish on all my rods and I switched to Sufix the first of the season,because the memory in vanish was terrible. Now I am hooked on P-line although I do use Sufix on my meathaulers for Saltwater Fishing

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by Fishnngolfn

I always wet the line before during and after the knot. I have never had a problem with the reverse cinch knot (or half blood knot) when tying mono. Maybe it is just the Vanish and that it truly does suck. I will soon find out once I receive my order of PLine CFX fluoro leader line.

PS. Does anyone want to purchase a 150 yard spool of Vanish? It only has 20 feet of line used.

Need to tweak your sales pitch just a little, methinks.

[Abbeysdad]

Originally Posted by MississippiBoy

Need to tweak your sales pitch just a little, methinks.

Shoot...I think he needs a whole new business plan!!!
LOL

[Abbeysdad]

Originally Posted by jmartin

F&G try P-line I use 20 pound on my Med heavy Caster and I pulled a 30 pound snapping turtle up out of the mud last weekend and landed it in the boat. Needless to say he drug the boat and anchor till I got him in.BTW.... a 30 pound snapper is like reeling in a small block 350

Now why would you want a 30# snappin turtle in yer boat?

Makes me think of when I went to Dick's lookin fer a net and saw some boat nets big 'nuff fer a small whale - now why would I want a fish in the boat, bigger than the boat??? LOL

[jmartin]

Had to let my buddy get a picture of it on my cell phone, but you can bet I never let him loose.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by dodgeguy

your problem is the vanish .it sucks!!!all flouro needs to be wet when tied but vanish is the worst flouro ever made and is known for this problem.try some seguar invizx if you really feel you need a leader.

I agree here.

Vanish is a Walleye line. Now for those of you who have never fished for walleye, this may not mean much, but it does. In walleye fishing, you're not making the repeated casts or brutal hooksets you do in bass fishing. Both of these factor weakens Vanish more than it would a different fluorocarbon like P-line, Stren, Trilene, seaguar, etc. I use Stren Fluoro for my leaders because it is stiff and more abbrasion resistant. (in fluoro, generally, the more abbrasion resistant, the stiffer the line is)

The other thing may be your knot. I tie the improved clinch on everything except braid with no problems. Also, you may be tightening the knot too fast or not lubricating it enough. When tying knots, especially with the fluoro, ALWAYS wet the knot.

BB

[islandbass]

Fishinngolfin,

Please heed the warnings regarding vanish. The line just plain and flat out sucks. I am very inclined to believe in your case the line was faulty and not your knot tying.

I have had a near bad experience with it using the improved clinch and palomar knots. Even after carefully tying Poof... uh I mean Vanish a good number of times, wetting it, cinching it, etc. the line broke at the knot with a light tug. It was so weak that a dink would have snapped the line. It is the only line that I ever used that failed with an improved clinch knot (excluding braid).

Bif bassin is right. It was intended to be a Walleye line, but if I were to ever fish for walleye, I still wouldn't use it. The knot strength of this line is in the dumps. Thumbs down on Poof, I mean Vanish.

[cassidyta]

I have been having the exact opposite problem as of late. I have been throwing 30# power pro and have tried both CXF and Seaguar 20# as a leader. I had the leader break off twice on hook sets this weekend. This has not been at the knot but 4-6" down the leader. In both cases, the line did not go through the junk first and was not showing any signs of wear. In fact, both times the leader was from a new spool and had not seen many casts before the strikes.
I know there are some hawgs in this lake. I have gotten two that broke the 10# mark this summer. Both of those were on 12 lbs mono.
I am not trying to start a debate, but for now I am done with the floro.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by cassidyta

I am not trying to start a debate, but for now I am done with the floro.

Truthfully speaking, I have been considering the same decision. I have been experiencing a lot of leader failures in the rocks on Allatoona. The other night I decided to use 15 pound mono instead and ended up with the same number of fish and bites with the mono leader, and never broke off or cut off on the rocks. I enjoyed the experience, so it's got me thinking that I might go back to mono for my leaders.