I think we all can agree...

[lunker-lander]

George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million
illegal immigrants!

That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of
gas would come down.....

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the Border....

When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand
him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq ...

Tell him if
he wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military....

Give him a
soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it.....

After his tour, he will be allowed to
become a citizen since he defended this country.....
He will also be registered to be taxed
and be a legal patriot..... .

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a
solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life
for themselves.. ....

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the
canteen, rifle or ammo.....

Problem Solved.....


-Lunk-

P.S. -- If you don't agree, get your *** out of America!

[WTL]

I disagree. Its a lot more complicated than that, at least when you say "if we deport all the illegals it will result in x result."

There will be many consequences of such an action.

Have you seen Charlie Wilson's War yet?

There is a story in that movie about a zen master, its something like this.

There was a boy in a small town who was given a horse. Everybody said "how wonderful, he has a horse"... To which the zen master replied, we'll see.

Then the boy fell off the horse and broke his arm. Everyone in town said "how horrible, he would have been better off had he never had the horse".... To which the zen master replied, we'll see.

Then war broke out. Every boy of that age went off to fight, and they were all killed. Except the boy, he couldn't fight because of the broken arm. In regards to the boy, the town said "how wonderful, at least he survived". To which the zen master said, we'll see.

The point is there are always unintended and completly unforseable consequences. While I agree that illegals should be subject to the laws of the state, and that border security should be tightened, I am not so sure that if we get what we are all crying for there wont be unintended consequences. Like making our retards pick oranges or something cause we aint got any mexicans.

PS, get you *** out of America if you have a problem with freedom of thought and the freedom to disagree. Commie pinko.

[Lilmoosecountry]

We as americans can pick our own fruit. We don't need no mexicans. We use our welfare cases for that. You want a pay check then get to work. If you cross our border legally & You pay taxes. I don't mean using your cousins SSI # either. Than let me be the first to welcome you to the USA. But you cross ilegally you go to jail for 5 yrs. Every time you cross the border ilegally you go for a mandatory 5 year prison sentence. I under stand they want a better life. We as Americans had somthing called a revolutionary war. Maybe the people of Mexico need to start taking charge of there own goverment & start making changes to improve living conditions. Instead of comming to our country & Taking them away from us.

[carolina-rig-01]

moose, i have one problem with your solution. 5 years in prison? we would be paying taxes on their food and everything else while they are locked up, that just doesn't seem right. i mean they sneak over here with no intentions of contributing to our society, and we by them lunch every day for 5 years? i am thinking shoot on site, and the same goes for the coast too. if we would start sinking rubber rafts 1/4 of a mile off coast maybe word would get back to cuba not to try it. i have no problem with people that come over the right way and pay taxes and work. but when they sneak over here and take advantage of us, something has to be done. most all of us come from ancestors that were not natives to this country, but most of them went through the red tape and did it the right way. and one more thing that is kinda on the subject....when you get a job you have to pass a drug test. shouldn't the same rules apply for the people on welfare and such that just make a living off the government at our expense?

[zooker]

if george carlin had a brain he would be dangerus..he needs to stick with his day job- which he is good at- just be funny and shut up..

agree?? not no but H#LL NO!!

boy do ya REALLY want to get me started..

Originally Posted by WTL

Its a lot more complicated than that, at least when you say "if we deport all the illegals it will result in x result."

There will be many consequences of such an action.

The point is there are always unintended and completly unforseable consequences. While I agree that illegals should be subject to the laws of the state, and that border security should be tightened, I am not so sure that if we get what we are all crying for there wont be unintended consequences. Like making our retards pick oranges or something cause we aint got any mexicans.

brother love i could not have said it better than that my self..

since most of you are unaware i will enlighten you..
because of the present imagration laws. to be come a naturalized citizen from the day you present/declare your self to the local emabassy.-of the nation you were born in-till your sworn in takes NO LESS than 10 years.. not to mention the numberus trips and thousands of dallors it cost to get ready to be come a naturized citizen..the written "test" it self cost $1500 a shot.-you must pass it-
once you are sworn in as a naturalized citizen. then you get the happness of being taxed out the butt.not only do they have to pay the standardized taxes we all do.they also have to pay the back taxes for the 10 years since they declared them selves..if after many years you commit a felony-dui,assult,what ever. you can and will be deported to your country of origin.-even if you last lived there 60 years ago..

yes i do agree and every one i know of agrees that the immagration laws need to be changed. the part that is the divider is just how too change it and where the changes need to be.

how do i know ? well i see it every day and since i currantly sponser several illegals. you can say i am into it up to my neck...




zooker

[Rebbasser]

Originally Posted by WTL

I disagree. Its a lot more complicated than that, at least when you say "if we deport all the illegals it will result in x result."

There will be many consequences of such an action.

Yes there will.

But how many will be bad for America?

Can't get Americans to pick fruit? Growers will have to mechanize. It may be painful at first, but will lead to better efficiency in the future.

I agree we need to change the immigration laws, but just leaving the illegals here still doesn't solve the problem, and amnesty definitely isn't the answer.

Zooker, you think you are up to your neck? Try living in a city 200 miles from Mexico.

[Lilmoosecountry]

Originally Posted by zooker

if george carlin had a brain he would be dangerus..he needs to stick with his day job- which he is good at- just be funny and shut up..

agree?? not no but H#LL NO!!

boy do ya REALLY want to get me started..



brother love i could not have said it better than that my self..

since most of you are unaware i will enlighten you..
because of the present imagration laws. to be come a naturalized citizen from the day you present/declare your self to the local emabassy.-of the nation you were born in-till your sworn in takes NO LESS than 10 years.. not to mention the numberus trips and thousands of dallors it cost to get ready to be come a naturized citizen..the written "test" it self cost $1500 a shot.-you must pass it-
once you are sworn in as a naturalized citizen. then you get the happness of being taxed out the butt.not only do they have to pay the standardized taxes we all do.they also have to pay the back taxes for the 10 years since they declared them selves..if after many years you commit a felony-dui,assult,what ever. you can and will be deported to your country of origin.-even if you last lived there 60 years ago..

yes i do agree and every one i know of agrees that the immagration laws need to be changed. the part that is the divider is just how too change it and where the changes need to be.

how do i know ? well i see it every day and since i currantly sponser several illegals. you can say i am into it up to my neck...




zooker

Thanx ZOOK!!! But i am aware & i don't care. These are the laws if you don't want to live by them get out. I don't mean you. I mean them. Yes they do need to changed. But why these laws are in place. They need to enforced. Because they are the law. They are breaking them. Live in our country & live by our laws or get out. I really don't what Jose problems are. In the mean time jobs are being tooken away from the few us that will do what ever they have to feed there famlies. Maybe i am minority in this. But if the only job in this town is Head Lube man in a Hore House. Guess what i'll take it. I am a man,husband & father. It's my duty as head of the house hold to provide for my family. Yes we have some lazy americans that don't want to do anything. The Solution to growers & other jobs are give them to the welfare people. Want a be lazy fine but unless you work for your money. Your not getting a check. I'm not talking about the real honest disabled people either. I'm talking about the people who manipulate the system. You see i have MS. I 've been in wheel chair twice in the last 10yrs. Not one time have i given up. Not one time did i get a check. I am an exsplosive Eng. by trade. I now work in a bank. Yes i had to change my work habits. But i never stopped working. So unless we americans don't start watching out for ourselves. One day you may be saluting the Mexican Flag. There is a War in our country. It's a Culture war. The imigrants are taking over everything. Please don't pretend it's not happening. Drive around town today. Look & See for yourself. It's real it's happening. Unless we get Stiffer Laws. We will loose this culture war.

[carolina-rig-01]

well said moose

[Lilmoosecountry]

letz do one thing on this thread. Letz keep it clean. So there is no chance of it getting locked. So lets be Cordial & No name Calling.

[WTL]

lilmoose, if you are worried about unemployment then you should favor the much simpler solution of lowering the minimum wage.

There are actually a lot of problems out there that are much more threatening to the country. Like the degredation of the dollar and all the debt we have racked up. That will kill us before any "culture war", just as it will kill us before the ragheads do. The mexicans are one of our smaller problems.

Besides, there are a lot of good things about mexicans that we in this country could use. Things that made this country great, like personal faith, family values and incredible work ethic. Yes, they need to speak english. We need to do a better job of assimilating them into our culture. But I got a clue for some people, if we want to assimilate these people; maybe we should think twice about blaming them for all the ills of our society, cause that does nothing but divide us from the mexicans. If we truly believe that most US values are superior, they will prevail anyways in a free market of ideas and culture.

[Fish4food]

Our problem isn't illegal immigration, it's foreign policy, or lack there of. We allow American companies to save tax money by going off shore. We also allow them to pay the going wage rate when they go off shore. Things would be much different if Mexicans would have been paid $15/hr to build F-150's for Ford, or consumer products for Honeywell or other companies that moved south. We see it in our own country. A steel mill, mine, or auto plant closes down, a town goes broke and the people move to another area trying to survive. Same thing with illegal immigration, but on a grand scale. There is much more to it, but that is the basic premise. The ramifications of securing our boarders will be much worse than working to fix the actual problems. People shouldn't have to come to America for a better life, they should have it where there were born.

[WTL]

Fish4food,

the reason those jobs go to mexico or other countries is because it costs much less to employ their workforces. Companies are looking out for their bottom line, which is a great thing. If those companies had to pay American labor rates, some of them would go out of business or become largely uncompetitive with foreign companies. That would in turn hurt the economy even more than a few auto workers losing jobs here or there.

Mitt Romney makes me sick. To win the michigan primary, he went up there and told all those auto workers that he could get their jobs back. Thats a lie. Those jobs are going to be gone forever, at least like they were. The economy is always changing. The same thing happened to the farmers when we industrialized. We used to be a largely agrarian society. But step by step we got more efficient at farming, so the need for as many farmers was reduced. People had to adapt and learn to work in factories. Thats just how it is. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle unless you want to set the economy back 50 years.

[Lilmoosecountry]

with 11 million illegals in the country. That represents 11 million people who are not paying there taxes. But they put there kids in our public schools. So legal citzenz are the ones stuck with the burdern of paying for ther healthcare,Education & Etc. This is a drain on the hard working men & women of this country. But not just that they will work for allot less than the average american can afford to. So perspectives employeers higher illegals for less & demand to pay less to legal Law abiding citizens. Cost of living needs to be lowered Yes!!! Yes production does go over sea's. Why does the US goverment allow US Based businiess to go over sea's in the first hand. Maybe they should be stuck paying the same import fee's & Tarriffs like other foriegn based comapanies. That would send a signal to companies LIKE GM & FORD. I own a Nissan truck made in tennese. That's right nissan. When i was think about buying it i looked at toyota & Honda aswell. Guess what there made here in the USA. These foriegn based companies make more cars & Trucks in the US. Then all of the BIG 3 Combined. You want to send a signal to the big 3 stop buying there stuff. Start pulling your bass boat with a Nissan Titan. Hey it's made by some Hillbilles down south. You know it's got to be a good truck. 11 million less people equals alot less burdon on the US Economy that'z a fact. 11 million people paying there share of taxes mean the rest of us won't have to pay for there burdens

[WTL]

Why does the US goverment allow US Based businiess to go over sea's in the first hand.

You still don't understand. The problem with protectionsim is that it turns around and costs us more money in the long run when US based companies are hurt because they can't compete with other foreign companies to produce products at a marketable cost.

Its better to just open things up as much as you can and let capitalism take its course. Yes, it can be volatitle, yes people can be fired and occupations effectivly eliminated, but it tends to raise all ships in the end.

[Lilmoosecountry]

Your atitude reflects that sir of NEW WORLD ORDER style of goverment. I will not be a apart of such thing. I very much get it & i don't like it. Stepping on the feet of the little guy. 1 day that little guy will bite back. Liberals only hurt the world not better it. Gay Marriage,Animal Rights,Big Goverment, Anti Guns- thatz what liberals represent. None of that is good for America!!!

[WTL]

Sir, your understanding is still lacking. I am arguing in favor of unbridled capitalism here. What you are arguing in favor is one step over from socialism. What I am saying is when you get down to it, I think there is an inconsistency in your brand of "conservatism". Its a mismatch of issues, without an overarching paradigm. For my whole life I have searched for a paradigm that makes sense to me, and I have come to the conclusion that I am a political conservative in fact who justifies these ideas out of a libertarian ethos. What that means is that I believe the government which governs best, governs least. I have faith in the little guy to be stronger and wiser than the government beaurocrat who would love to set high tariffs and have control of one more cookie in the jar. I have faith that the little guys are capable enough, when one method of living disappears due to the march of history, to adapt and find news ways to make a living.

I will say it again. Protectionsim is nothing but one more form of economic socialism. You are propping up, indefinitly, people whose jobs otherwise wouldn't exist. Its welfare by another name. This is what you support. Welfare.

[zooker]

the exchange rate currantly is 1 to 10.. 1 american dallor equals 10 mexican peaso's or 1 peaso is worth 10 cents. average pay is 35 peaso's or $3.50 per DAY....

zooker

[lunker-lander]

I couldn't resist.....










It's actually "PESO", Zookie...

-Lunk-

[Lilmoosecountry]

Originally Posted by WTL

Sir, your understanding is still lacking. I am arguing in favor of unbridled capitalism here. What you are arguing in favor is one step over from socialism. What I am saying is when you get down to it, I think there is an inconsistency in your brand of "conservatism". Its a mismatch of issues, without an overarching paradigm. For my whole life I have searched for a paradigm that makes sense to me, and I have come to the conclusion that I am a political conservative in fact who justifies these ideas out of a libertarian ethos. What that means is that I believe the government which governs best, governs least. I have faith in the little guy to be stronger and wiser than the government beaurocrat who would love to set high tariffs and have control of one more cookie in the jar. I have faith that the little guys are capable enough, when one method of living disappears due to the march of history, to adapt and find news ways to make a living.

I will say it again. Protectionsim is nothing but one more form of economic socialism. You are propping up, indefinitly, people whose jobs otherwise wouldn't exist. Its welfare by another name. This is what you support. Welfare.

I don't support welfare!!! In fact i stated to you that they should work if they want a check. Capitlism & Socialism are almost the same. you don't get a choice. One day if the little guy keeps getting pushed out of the businiess world. You'll only beable to go to Wally World for all your shopping & Banking needs. There won't be nothing else. So do you want wally world for lunch or that other wally world accross town. 20yrs ago ATT was split up for a reason from MA BELL. They felt they were getting to big & offer the cosumer no choice. Kind a like wally world is doing now. I go there because in some cases were i live because i as a consumer have know choice. Have you seen what wally world does to a small town. It kills all the small businiess. In return causes a loss of jobs. No worries wally is hiring for half as much as you were working for. Then after 5 year when the taxes come do. They pull up & close shop. Leaving people no jobs no place buy the things they need. With the entire local economy devestated.

[WTL]

Capitalism and socialism are nothing alike, and that you think they are almost the same highlights your, well, ignorance of the subject. Thats not intended as an insult, just a remark. Walmart is far from a monopoly, and far from the demon people make it out to be.

Just to prove it, I'm going to take your post apart a peice at a time. Here we go!

I don't support welfare!!! In fact i stated to you that they should work if they want a check.

It was my contention that economic protectionism does the same thing as welfare, IE it subsidizes people to live in situations where they couldn't exist on their own. It does so because all the jobs that are "protected" by tarriffs are dead weight if those tariffs don't exist. The tariffs function the same way taxes that get sent to welfare function, as an impediment to economic progress.

Capitlism & Socialism are almost the same.

Capitalism - an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Socialism - a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole, IE the state.

The difference is huge. Private individuals don't hvae a legal power to coerce. The state does. From this coercion, the state can see to it that people behave according, whereas Walmart is at the whim of the people, having to serve a market. Sometimes, wally world gets it right. Sometimes it doesn't. The only people walmart puts out of business are those who are charging you too much. They arent saints any more than Sam Walton, just cause they is little, the charge what they charge for profit.

you don't get a choice. One day if the little guy keeps getting pushed out of the businiess world.

The business world revolves around the little guy. Capitalism needs consumers. To survive, business try to meet the needs and whims of the little guy.

You'll only beable to go to Wally World for all your shopping & Banking needs.

While walmart provides these services, I don't nor will I ever be forced in a free country to have to go to walmart to bank or buy groceries. In fact, as walmart has grown, it has actually weakened in position to the market due to being too bulky and general. Look at the success of Target and Publix, or online businesses like Amazon. They are eating walmarts lunch.

There won't be nothing else. So do you want wally world for lunch or that other wally world accross town.

Again, walmart doesn't have the power or knowledge to bar other eating, banking or shopping establishments from the market. While they are among the cheapest, other establishments always pop up that satisfie other niches.

20yrs ago ATT was split up for a reason from MA BELL.

Quite often there are vested interests involved in such breakups that are not pure. I really don't know too much about the Ma Bell breakup, but I can say that the whole Microsoft fiasco was pushed by its competetors (as I recall Netscape) because they were getting their *** handed to them in the free market by a company that provided a superior service and product. That is hardly a monopoly. It was good business.

They felt they were getting to big & offer the cosumer no choice. Kind a like wally world is doing now. I go there because in some cases were i live because i as a consumer have know choice. Have you seen what wally world does to a small town. It kills all the small businiess.

Have you see a small town without a walmart? They are worse. Thats why people in smalltowns without walmart tend to drive to the city to go to, shock, walmart.

In return causes a loss of jobs. No worries wally is hiring for half as much as you were working for.

The only jobs that are lost as a result of walmart are those that are held by people doing a much less efficient job than walmart. It is simple, if you and the other guy are doing the same thing, and the other guy does it better for cheaper, you are going out of business. That sir, is what you call a fact of life. You sir, are trying to deny the facts of life. That sir, is your problem and why your ideas are completly futile. If walmart doesn't enter a community, causing the same effect, target will. That doesn't even mention the fact that consumers, as a result of walmart, are now saving more money than they ever did shopping for mom and pop, and putting that money back into the economy in the form of purchases or investments which, in turn, help their community and country grow.

Then after 5 year when the taxes come do.

If someone raises taxes, thats the governments fault.

They pull up & close shop.Leaving people no jobs no place buy the things they need. With the entire local economy devestated.

Are you thinking walmart, or the aliens from Independence Day here. Walmart, if they are making a good profit with a store, will not leave. If they are not making a profit, then they will leave a community. Then Ma and Pa can have their store and their 2.85 dollar cans of pringles and 8 dollar 6 packs of milwakees best back. Or target can come in, or someone in between, or they can drive to the nearest city, which in the case of a community that is unprofitable for walmart, probably wont be far, and they can shop there.

[Lilmoosecountry]

WTL- i choose no longer engage in discusion on this topic. I'm finding harder & harder to keep from getting ANGRY. So i choose to bow out.

[WTL]

Sure, thats your right.

[bassthumb32]

most of you seem to think that by talking about this matter on a bass fishing board will make the government realize that they need to do something. They dont pay taxes but they do the hardest and most dangerous work for the smallest wages. Imagine what you wouldnt have if they werent around. I wouldn't work for $6.00 an hour on anything, would you? and we ship things to other countries because America cant compete with other countries lower costs of living. we all agree that somehting needs to be done lets just leave it at that. Its obivous that some of you dont have any idea what you are talking about anyways. nothings going to change today, tommorrow, or porbably next year. so deal with it and find something else to complain about.

[brushhog]

I respect everyone here and their opinions, I'm glad we can keep it as close to civil as possible when discussing politics... While I lean more towards WTL and his logic here, it doesn't mean anyone is right. I appreciate hearing many different points of view. As citizens it often feels difficult to impact big ticket, big issue politics... but to make the system work simple folks like us have to keep talking, making our voices heard, being political active, and voting locally, state wide and federally for appropriate candidates.

By the way, I'm glad the only p%$$ing contest I've had with WTL was about Eli Manning....

[zooker]

don't worry lil moose. brother love is a genius...in case you didn't figure it out by now..

zooker