Braid with a Fluorocarbon leader

[FlatHead]

I have read several veterans recommend braided line with a fluorocarbon leader, there must be something to it. Do you guys just use it for finesse fishing (shaky heads, ect), or for flippin jigs. And what type of knot do you use to connect the two lines?

[bassfisher02]

The flouro leader is for people who fish mainly clear water who believe that it helps catch more fish [pretty much the fish wont see the line coming from the bait as well with flouro coming from it, since braid is rather visible] but i'm still not sold that it makes much of a difference, honestly... its a fish swimming around in a body of water, there is also floating vegetation, and a lot of other things that resemble fishing line to an extent. In addition to that, its focused on the bait, not whats around it. Furthermore, unless its a pressured fishing area, why would the fish second guess food? its nature instinct to eat, it sees something that looks good to them, a worm, another fish, whatever and they attack. There are exceptions, as stated earlier when fishing pressured areas, and when fishing where the fish are pretty much lockjaw. But this is just MHO and many others will dissagree with me.

[Rebbasser]

Flyrod religiously uses a fluoro leader and ties it with a J knot. I mainly use it for shakey head rigs and use a J knot or a surgeons knot.

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by FlatHead

I have read several veterans recommend braided line with a fluorocarbon leader, there must be something to it. Do you guys just use it for finesse fishing (shaky heads, ect), or for flippin jigs. And what type of knot do you use to connect the two lines?

OK, since I may the forum's resident evangelist for use of the combo you enquire about, I'll simply tell you of MY use of same.
I use a braid/fluoro combo for virtually all T-rig, Wacky-rig, and jig fishing so well as almost all dropshot work applications. There are exceptions, of course, determined by certain factors.
Reason One: While I like the lack of stretch and sensitivity of braid (it can make a mediocre rod seem a very sensitive one,) I am sensitive to line visibility. The fluoro leader relieves that concern.
Reason Two: Economy. Given the cost of braid, a well-attached fluoro leader will allow several re-ties, assuming an initial leader length sufficient to do so. I usually attach a leader of at least SIX feet. Barring a break at the leader/line juncture OR excess fraying to the leader this should last quite a while.

Connection: I believe that DuPont Stren "J-Knot" to be the strongest and most dependable knot for joining braid to flouro OR mono. The bad news is that it's the most aggravating &%^#! knot known to man, so far as tying successfully is concerned. You will find it here:

http://www.angling-adventures.net/knots/knots.htm

Note: While the "recipe" calls for five passes through the main loop, I seem to get away with FOUR with no penalty.
Also, DO NOT "practice" (tho' practice you must,) with real fluoro and new braid. Instead, use some old mono in approximately the same DIAMETER as the flouro you intend to use. If possible, use old soon-to-be discarded braid OR find a reel that has been obviously over-filled with braid and use the business end of that. Flouro is VERY pricey, as is braid, and you will expend a lot of each in the learning process.

Components: Any braid will do. I use #30 braid for heavier work and #20 for the lighter applications. But, you should be careful not to overmatch your leader v. the braid test.
I use #15 t0 #25(rarely, referring #20 for most applications,) with #30 braid, #10-15 fluoro with #20 braid (favoring #12 in most cases.)
But just ANY fluoro WON'T do. There are fluoros dedicated and formulated for use as leader. My personal favorite is P-Line Fluorocarbon Leader Material, sold in small 25 meter spools. It's pricey (this is why we practice with mono,) but you can get a lot of leaders out of a spool.
Academy, Sportsman's Warehouse, Cabela's, and BPS all have it.

Now, for some work no leader is needed, in some cases NOT even wanted.
I fish buzzzzzzzbaits, spinnerbaits, toads and frogs on braid with NO leader unless its a tough mono...NOT fluoro. I also NEVER use fluoro or a fluoro cofilament (such as P-Line FloroClear) either as a leader, OR alone, for other topwater, such as Pop 'Rs, Chug Bugs, etc. Why? Well, fluoro sinks quite readily...get it?

And...Night fishing...Here you can fish your slow plastics and jigs on straight braid without the leader. Visiblility is not an issue.

You will, no doubt, receive more input here. Some of our friends here will differ in some detail, most likely re the knot matter. (Of course, they're the ones who haven't the skill or patience to master and use the J-Knot)
Some will tell you they "NEVER USE A LEADER ON BRAID" (same excuse.)
I'm just ribbing here, guys!!!

Good luck!

FR

[FlatHead]

Thanks, FR the information was very helpful. My plans are to try out the braid/fluro on my flippin rod first. Power Pro (Spectra) braid #20/ P-Line Fluorocarbon Leader Material #15 is the direction I am headed, do you think this is a good starting point?

FH

[Hef]

I use 30lb Stren Super Braid - 8lb Berkley flouro, tied with a Uni knot.

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by FlatHead

Thanks, FR the information was very helpful. My plans are to try out the braid/fluro on my flippin rod first. Power Pro (Spectra) braid #20/ P-Line Fluorocarbon Leader Material #15 is the direction I am headed, do you think this is a good starting point?

FH

Well, if the cover is sparse I guess you'd be OK. If the potential for snags is great, whether due to rocks, wood, or whatever, then I'd feel better with #30 braid and #20 fluoro leader.
Usually, when using @20 braid, I use no higher than #12 fluoro.
Now, and this is where braid really shines...
Let's say you encounter a snag you cannot reach. Unlike with other lines braid may save the day. Here's how;
With some slack in the line, hook a forefinger around the line, between the reel and the first guide. Draw it like a bow, ala Robin Hood, beginning with a STRAIGHT rod, until the rod (AKA "bow") is bent. Then, release the line. This sudden release of tension will often jar the snag loose. Repeat until the snag is cleared or the line breaks...either at the J-Knot or somewhere along the leader.

FR

[lizardsrule]

Yawn, just forget the leader and fish with the braid.

Lizards

[ILfishinman]

flyroids, i looked at the j-knot illistration on the link you provided and it doesn't say anything about 5 passes, just an overhand knot and a pass over te line and under it. not sure its the same knot you are talking about, the one there isnt too irritating to tie, pretty simple.

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by ILfishinman

flyroids, i looked at the j-knot illistration on the link you provided and it doesn't say anything about 5 passes, just an overhand knot and a pass over te line and under it. not sure its the same knot you are talking about, the one there isnt too irritating to tie, pretty simple.

Ill-fish,

I originally got my info from a now defunct link provided BY DuPont, the maker of Stren. It DID require five pass-throughs. But, like I earlier stated, I seem to get by with four.
BTW, I fished, sometimes in pouring rain, at Canyon Lake TX yesterday.
My partner/student used mono, often @12 P-line CXX. I used braid with a fluoro leader. The water in the area we fished was rather clear.
I spent much time in coaching, rigging stuff for him, and maneuvering the boat to recover his snags so actual fishing time was somewhat curtailed. That's all good because that's what I was there for.
Now...remember the difference in lines I mentioned? Good. That MAY explain why I boated/released 9 bass (one legitimate 4+, two or three other keepers,) and he managed one. One of my fish was caught on a Super Spook Jr (on P-Line CXX), one on a 5" Tiki Stik, the remainder on T-rigged worms. So, 8 bass on braid/flouro.
Some of the hits I DID connect on were extremely light. I'm certain I'd never have detected them without the braid/fluoro combo.
Again...I use braid w/o the leader for fast-moving lures as listed in my earlier post, FloroClear for cranks and lipless, and CX or CXX for most topwater. For "slow" presentations...worms, jigs, dropshot, soft sticks...braid/fluoro.
I see it this way; Some believe in a given system or technique so they use that with confidence so they catch fish. Some use a given technique or system because they are too lazy to do otherwise and they usually catch fewer fish. Luckily, even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then.
I am not an "Expert", far from it. Still, I DO keep an open mind and am willing to take advantage of the advances made in the technological aspects of our sport, even though I'm not always in the advance guard when something new comes along.
Whatever you end up settling on, I do hope you'll give the discussed combo a fair trial. To do this, you'll need to use quality components, master a pain-in-the-a$$ knot, and practice, practice, practice. Just that "journey" alone will make you a better man.

FR

[ILfishinman]

okay, so the one listed is just a simplified and supposedly less effective version of yours, for yours do you just alternate the over and under thing or just do the under like it says if you are using braid/flouro combo? i had tried to do the braid flouro combo before with the uni-uni knot, also without leader material and it broke easily so i stopped with it and just gave up. with the article you wrote i now know i need to get leader material and next time im at dicks ill see if they got any. any specific brand you recommend? thanks for your elaboration on the topic.

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by ILfishinman

okay, so the one listed is just a simplified and supposedly less effective version of yours, for yours do you just alternate the over and under thing or just do the under like it says if you are using braid/flouro combo? i had tried to do the braid flouro combo before with the uni-uni knot, also without leader material and it broke easily so i stopped with it and just gave up. with the article you wrote i now know i need to get leader material and next time im at dicks ill see if they got any. any specific brand you recommend? thanks for your elaboration on the topic.

The link I sent DOES differ from the original J-Knot schematic as provided by the DuPont site, but only in the number of "ins and outs"; the Dupont version asking for five and the other for only three. Well, if three will hold, fine with me.
The leader material I recommend is the P-Line CFX fluorocarbon. It comes in a small diameter 25M spool, and the box is silver on top, blue on the bottom, with narrow black band across the middle.
Price ranges from 5.99 up, depending on test.
I recommend you match the braid/leader tests as stated earlier and that you practice with scraps of mono and braid until you are confident. Wait'll you have to replace a leader in poor light and/or a stiff breeze!

FR

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by Hef

I use 30lb Stren Super Braid - 8lb Berkley flouro, tied with a Uni knot.

Well, go ahead, but unless you are catching nothing but 6" bluegill in a swimming pool you are asking for it.
I don't mind you wasting lots of lures but I hate the thought of all those fish with your hardware stuck in them, trying to eat and survive.

That ALL I'm gonna say about it, so save the "I've never lost a fish" for someone else.

FR

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by FlatHead

Thanks, FR the information was very helpful. My plans are to try out the braid/fluro on my flippin rod first. Power Pro (Spectra) braid #20/ P-Line Fluorocarbon Leader Material #15 is the direction I am headed, do you think this is a good starting point?

FH

Flat,

I think that'll be fine. 20/12 is good too.

FR

[FlyRod]

To all concerned:

I use leaders of no less than 6', no more than 8'. That length allows me several re-ties before I need to replace the leader (unless I break the whole shebang off, which I occasionally do)
I will use the same leader until it's down to maybe two feet before I "install" a new one.
Since, as you will discover, tying the J-Knot results in the loss of several inches of both braid and leader material, having to replace the leader less often is an economics boost and means more time fishing v. time spent cussing the J-Knot.

FR

PeeYess: DON'T forget the TINY drop of super-glue on the J.

[FlatHead]

Thanks again FlyRod for the information. Got a tournament this weekend and will wait until after it to try out the new line/leader!!

FlatHead

[getdnet]

I use 30/40 lb power-pro and 14/18 lb vanish, tied with a double uni-knot. Use it on drop shot, texas,and crank/jerk baits. Works great for me.

[ILfishinman]

thanks for all the info flyrod, i also have a tourney this weekend, have to try after that, gain some confidence in it before i use it in competition.

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by ILfishinman

thanks for all the info flyrod, i also have a tourney this weekend, have to try after that, gain some confidence in it before i use it in competition.

Ilf, (BTW, which "Ilf" are you? Dopey? Grumpy? Doc, Bashful? Sneezy? Happy? I can NEVER remember #7! Maybe that's why Santa stiffs me. I get the same thing every Christmas...a rock. Well, there WAS the rod that Reb surprised me with last year)

Why not spend the remaining time practicing the &%^%#~! J-Knot and rigging one soft plastic rod/reel with same? It just might make the diff in the tourney results.
If you have difficulty in finding the leader material accept NO subsititutes. I'll send you a spool of it.

One last "Sales Pitch"; Using a pure fluoro leader allows you to use higher-test lines than water clarity would otherwise dictate. A #15 fluoro leader is likely to be far less visible in very clear water than a #8 mono line.

FR
Damned insomnia!

[airskank]

Hi, this is my first post but i had a question regarding the "leader" suggestions. The way I'm fishing right now is 8 lbs floroclear no leader or anything. I'm very very new to fishing(about 2 weeks now) and i'm wondering why would you use 2 different lines and not just one line of w/e you make your leader out of? Is it for strength purposes? I understand that fish can see line and you want to minimize is at much as possible but what does braid do?

Also I lost 2 fish today due to my line breaking... that's prolly a good indication that i need to go with a heavier line but I'm still not sure why I wouldnt just buy a fluoro line and string it on there. Thanks

Chris

[wargoth]

Braids are stronger, limper, cast better, and more resistant to abrasion than fluoro. The purpose to the leader is to make the line disappear to avoid spooking the fish. Whether you buy into the logic behind this or not is on you. I personally find that, at least in my parts, the fish don't give a darn about the line, in fact, sometimes I see them investigating the line laying above thier heads 20 feet or so before the lure gets to them, and it holds their attention in place till they see the lure and nail it.

I suppose though in exceedingly clear water with easily spooked fish though it may be useful. If I ever find mysself in those conditions and not catching, I may give it a whirl.

[FlyRod]

Originally Posted by airskank

Hi, this is my first post but i had a question regarding the "leader" suggestions. The way I'm fishing right now is 8 lbs floroclear no leader or anything. I'm very very new to fishing(about 2 weeks now) and i'm wondering why would you use 2 different lines and not just one line of w/e you make your leader out of? Is it for strength purposes? I understand that fish can see line and you want to minimize is at much as possible but what does braid do?

Also I lost 2 fish today due to my line breaking... that's prolly a good indication that i need to go with a heavier line but I'm still not sure why I wouldnt just buy a fluoro line and string it on there. Thanks

Chris

Chris,

OK, in a nutshell.
Advantages to braid are;
Always limp and castable, even in very cold weather.
Almost ZERO stretch (= equals far greater sensitivity and hooksetting power as well as great ability to wrench a fish out of cover.) Fluoro, despite claims to the contrary, DOES stretch.
Related to above: "Shock and Awe". When you set the hook you increase the chances of disorienting or slightly stunning the fish. This may buy you time to get him/her out of the bush.
Ease of clearing backlashes: 'lashes are MUCH easier and quicker to clear AND...braid won't kink, unlike mono and especially fluoro, so you haven't got a time-bomb on your spool that can lead to a lost lure and a lost fish with hardware stuck in him/her that might result in the death of the critter.
Line Economy: Braid, quite simply, if not terrible abused, will outlive YOU. Thus, the original "higher cost" of braid v. premium mono is more than offset. It's offset even more quickly when compared to expensive "pure" fluoro.
Use in Grass, weed, and pads: Unlike mono or fluoro, braid will literally saw through almost all such stuff, without damage.
CAUTION! It will also saw through you, right to the bone, so be careful.
And...braid, compared to the same test in mono or fluoro, is thinner. This means that the loss of a few yards of it will not so affect casting distance and backlash probabilities as would the loss of the same length of the other two. In other words, losing 20 yards of #30 braid will not lower the line level on the spool anywhere near so much as losing even ten yards of #15 mono or fluoro.
Finally, due to the lack of stretch you won't need such violent hooksets. Sometimes, for me at least, simply a quick and SHORT snap of the wrist does it. on numerous occasions, the fish running with the bait/lure and "reaching the end of his rope" does the trick. At other times, simply reeling rapidly and raising, NOT snapping, the rod tip, takes care of business.
Oh, and it's a lot easier to stop a fish from jumping when using braid. That ol' stretch thing again.


Now, why then do I use a PURE and PURPOSE-MADE fluoro leader for the applications/techniques I listed earlier? Well, read the earlier posts in this thread.
Note that using a 6-8 foot fluoro leader has little effect on the qualities stated for braid. It's not long enough to do so.

Good luck.

FR

[wargoth]

Well, sure, OK, if you want the long answer... LOL. Nice wording there Flyrod.

[airskank]

thanks for the awesome answer and break-down fly. when you say "#30" and such you mean the test lbs.?

[MississippiBoy]

Originally Posted by FlyRod

Ilf, (BTW, which "Ilf" are you? Dopey? Grumpy? Doc, Bashful? Sneezy? Happy? I can NEVER remember #7!

Sleepy