Do Rods fatigue as they age ?

[HarveysMinnow]

Some interesting comments and opinions resulted from my previous post on "Casting Mechanics". On the rod sensitivity issue, let me just say that I really have no quarrel with rod sensitivity, as long as I don't have to pay extra for it. I just think the rod manufacturers have been 'overhyping' it to some extent, but who can blame them in these troubled economic times? They have to do something to continue selling new rods.

The thought of new rods led me to other questions: Do any of you feel that your older rods have grown less sensitive with age? Do you ever buy a replacement rod for one of your old favorites, just because the rod is old but in otherwise good condition?

I cannot detect any real difference in my older rods, but I have no means of testing them to get any sort of numerical measure of "flex resistance" or other critical rod properties. (I'm not sure if thinking "I've caught more fish on this rod than any other" qualifies as a critical property.) I do know that some polymeric materials tend to degrade or fatigue with age, exposure to sunlight, vibrations, and other adverse conditions. So I would enjoy reading your comments on this.

(In other words, Engineers, it's your turn to shine.)

.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

Some interesting comments and opinions resulted from my previous post on "Casting Mechanics". On the rod sensitivity issue, let me just say that I really have no quarrel with rod sensitivity, as long as I don't have to pay extra for it. I just think the rod manufacturers have been 'overhyping' it to some extent, but who can blame them in these troubled economic times? They have to do something to continue selling new rods.

The thought of new rods led me to other questions: Do any of you feel that your older rods have grown less sensitive with age? Do you ever buy a replacement rod for one of your old favorites, just because the rod is old but in otherwise good condition?

I cannot detect any real difference in my older rods, but I have no means of testing them to get any sort of numerical measure of "flex resistance" or other critical rod properties. (I'm not sure if thinking "I've caught more fish on this rod than any other" qualifies as a critical property.) I do know that some polymeric materials tend to degrade or fatigue with age, exposure to sunlight, vibrations, and other adverse conditions. So I would enjoy reading your comments on this.

(In other words, Engineers, it's your turn to shine.)

.

Now look what you done went and did!

Seriously though, I haven't been bass fishing long enough to have any old rods. And I don't know enough about that kind of stuff to tell you if graphite degrades over time.

But sensitivity IS something you're going to pay for, but it won't be all you get. Generally, as rods get more expensive, they get more sensitive but they also get better components, they sometimes get lighter, and sometimes better balanced. Now there are exceptions to all of these, that's just generally how it goes though.

BB

[WaffleJaw]

Yes,anything that recieves stress consistantly will slowly breakdown over time...This is also true with the filaments in rod blanks...But as long as the rods are taken care of and are not chipped,your ''graphite'' rods should outlast you and I .Your compoents however is another question
It should retain its elasticity as well...I think only extreme heat can deform that...But Im no expert by any means.

If I was,Id be making alot more $

[Ebbetsguy]

Gee I have to ask the ol lady about this one

[Bob Smith]

The resins used to bind the carbon epoxy graphite in most rods these days reacts and catalyzes at 350 degrees. That is also the temp that most fibers tend to become softer. Unless your rods are exposed to a house fire or boat fire, then the normal temperature they are exposed to should not hurt them.
Physical damage is another story though. Getting mad and slapping the side of the boat, closing a rod locker or car door on the rod, stepping on it, all these things will weaken the rod if it doesn't break it outright. "Bruising" or "Crushing" the matrix that is created when the fibers and the resin cure has a direct correllation to the sensitivity and the strength of the rod. Simply said, if you take extra care to never bump, hit, step, crush, or otherwise cause damage to the blank it should outlast you and retain it's originally sensitivity forever.
As far as the price of a good rod, all of the components are part of it, but a high quality rod blank is where it all starts (there are rod builders on here that attest to that statement). The jury is still out on which blank is the best, that comes down to personal preference and what your price range is, but it is true that the more you are willing to pay the lighter and more sensitive the rod blank will be. That doesn't mean it will be any stronger or last any longer.

[WTL]

I have heard that it is quite common for rods to become more limp with age. Gladly I have yet to experience this problem.

[HarveysMinnow]

Thank you, Bob Smith, for your comprehensive response to these questions. I'm glad to know that simply being inside a hot vehicle in mid-summer isn't enough to change a rod's character. Most of the rods I have will outlast me for sure, and possible even my grand-nephews.

This seems to happen a lot, but your statements have generated even more questions in my mind: Do you think the day will come when rod makers will begin assigning a numerical scale to their rods? That is to say, will they somehow measure sensitivity and other properties and make that a selling point, much as the number of bearings seems to be used today for reels? Also, I see mentioned in certain catalogs and web-sites the term "modulus", referring to the carbon fibers used in a particular rod series. Can you give us a layman's definition of "modulus" ?

.

[WaffleJaw]

In a nutshell,modulus refers to the stiffness/weight ratio of the fibers used in rod blanks...The higher the modulus the less material that is needed to achieve the same stiffness of a denser rod...The result is usuallly a lighter,more sensistive rod...There is a trade off though,.The High modulus blanks most likely will not be a durable as the low modulus blanks....And it is possible to find low modulus blanks that are just as light and sensistive as high modulus...The wall diameter,taper,and thickness play a big role as well.
IM ratings are nothing to get bent out shape over in my opinion.Which is what companies push on the public.

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

Thank you, Bob Smith, for your comprehensive response to these questions. I'm glad to know that simply being inside a hot vehicle in mid-summer isn't enough to change a rod's character. Most of the rods I have will outlast me for sure, and possible even my grand-nephews.

This seems to happen a lot, but your statements have generated even more questions in my mind: Do you think the day will come when rod makers will begin assigning a numerical scale to their rods? That is to say, will they somehow measure sensitivity and other properties and make that a selling point, much as the number of bearings seems to be used today for reels? Also, I see mentioned in certain catalogs and web-sites the term "modulus", referring to the carbon fibers used in a particular rod series. Can you give us a layman's definition of "modulus" ?

.

I believe modulus has to do with a material's resistance to bending. Not sure exactly what that means, but in relationship to fishing rods, mainly graphite ones, the higher the modulus rating, the stiffer the rod is for its weight. Essentially, this means they can make rods lighter and with smaller diameters for their power. There is a downside however... higher modulus graphite tends to be on the brittle side.

Sensitivity is generally better with higher modulus graphite; however, it depends greatly on what else goes into making the blank. You can make a blank with 85 million modulus graphite and use less graphite, more fillers, and crappy resins and it will be less sensitive than a 50 million modulus rod using few fillers, mostly graphite, and high quality resins.

Every product has that one thing that is way over marketed and isn't really as important as they make it seem. In cameras, that thing is megapixels. In grills, it's BTUs. And if fishing rods, it's modulus. Those are just a few example of things I know fairly well. But if you think, the same can be said for pretty much every product.

BB

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by WaffleJaw

In a nutshell,modulus refers to the stiffness/weight ratio of the fibers used in rod blanks...The higher the modulus the less material that is needed to achieve the same stiffness of a denser rod...The result is usuallly a lighter,more sensistive rod...There is a trade off though,.The High modulus blanks most likely will not be a durable as the low modulus blanks....And it is possible to find low modulus blanks that are just as light and sensistive as high modulus...The wall diameter,taper,and thickness play a big role as well.
IM ratings are nothing to get bent out shape over in my opinion.

hahaha, beat me to it.


BB

[Jrob78]

There isn't a industry standard on how modulus, sensitivity and blank strength are measured, as it equates to fishing rods. Like BB said, too many things go into making a rod, it's the sum of all the parts with knowledge and skill of the blank maker thrown in for good measure.

IM ratings can't be trusted either, IM is used interchangably by blank makers who don't even use Hexel graphite. Some of the IM ratings on rods are claiming IM numbers that don't even exist.

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by BigBassin144

hahaha, beat me to it.


BB

HAHAHA!...Man,I read a really good article on this awhile back...It went into details about the Higher modulus having more stretch than strenght...I cant find it for anything.

[Raul]

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

The thought of new rods led me to other questions: Do any of you feel that your older rods have grown less sensitive with age?

No, what I´ve seen is that more modern rods are a lot more sensitive.

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

Do you ever buy a replacement rod for one of your old favorites, just because the rod is old but in otherwise good condition?

No, I still keep and fish with my old rods, I purchase new ones because I´ve got the monkey on my back

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

I do know that some polymeric materials tend to degrade or fatigue with age, exposure to sunlight, vibrations, and other adverse conditions. So I would enjoy reading your comments on this.

Well I´m not an engineer but older materials are not as adverse conditions impervious as newer materials so you can expect a certain degree of degradation if the rod is exposed on a regular basis for extended periods of time to adverse conditions, ceramic inserts on guides are vibration sensitive ( my friend Pedro has to change the guides on his rods frequently because they crack and pop off, but what can you expect if he just tosses his rods on the truck bed ? ), lacquer is moist and UV sensitive so the rod finish can peel away, resins used to bond the graphite fibers can alos suffer from degradation specially in older gear.

One thing I know for sure, if you take care of your equipment it´s going to last a lifetime, I purchase new gear ( the monkey has something to do with it ) because I like gear, not because I have to, if it were for how much the gear lasts I would not need to purchase. Some of my older rods ( Berkley Lightnings and Series One ) are a good couple of decades old and they still look and perform like new, however I never leave I rod unattended, as soon as I get home after fishing it gets cleaned and stored into a rod tube.

[Ebbetsguy]

Here , I have this stored from another site, a lot of good information on rods:

http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/rodselection.html

I do know that the higher the modulus for me, as I went as high as IM10, the higher the modulus the more prone to snapping the rod seems to get, I do not know this for sure, I am not a tackle junkie or a high end guy, but was told for more senistivity less graphite material and more resins are used, I do not even know what that means.
I will go on my experience, the higher Modulus Rods, tips broke much more tham IM6 or IM7, and I fished both heavy, so I stiock with IM 7 ropds, works for me

btw I had a Fenwick HMX ( IM&) thats 8 years old, just gave it to a friend and it still sees daily use.

[islandbass]

Originally Posted by HarveysMinnow

Thank you, Bob Smith, for your comprehensive response to these questions. I'm glad to know that simply being inside a hot vehicle in mid-summer isn't enough to change a rod's character. Most of the rods I have will outlast me for sure, and possible even my grand-nephews.

This seems to happen a lot, but your statements have generated even more questions in my mind: Do you think the day will come when rod makers will begin assigning a numerical scale to their rods? That is to say, will they somehow measure sensitivity and other properties and make that a selling point, much as the number of bearings seems to be used today for reels? Also, I see mentioned in certain catalogs and web-sites the term "modulus", referring to the carbon fibers used in a particular rod series. Can you give us a layman's definition of "modulus" ?

.

Click on the link for a very good article on the subject. You will be free of the hype and fluff surrounding modulus. Since then I get a chuckle out of people buying a rod based strictly on meaningless numbers.

http://www.flwoutdoors.com/article.cfm?id=141123

As for developing a standard system, they probably could, but the thing about sensitivity is that even if a standard is set, sentivitity is 100% subjective to the person handling the rod. How times will be see a post in which someone says, "Rod A's sensitivity is severely lacking that IMHO I think an ugly stick is more sensitive. Rod B is way better."

Then some other person will say, "Are you kidding, Rod A is far better and Rod B sucks.

The subjectivity of sensitivity is probably one good reason a standard hasn't been developed, not to metion, there would be far less wiggle room in their marketing.

[Ebbetsguy]

I am the satisfied owner of one rod ( I have 8 of them actually)
ABU Conolon 6'6" Fast/MH
no fluff, just lots of fish,
I am not going down the brand war line, just stating no fluff , no frills
Happy,Happy with these 40 dollar rods and they continue to catch many fish, after being in the rain,snow, sun , you name it.
People make a lot more out of equipment when they should be paying attention to finding fish. if they ain't there. you cant catch em, even if you are fishing a Steetz combo!

[islandbass]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

Here , I have this stored from another site, a lot of good information on rods:

I am not a tackle junkie or a high end guy, but was told for more senistivity less graphite material and more resins are used, I do not even know what that means.

In general it means they can build the rod of the same strength but with less material. Now whether they actually build that rod to be of the same strength is another question. The rods would also be more delicate and I would say it would behoove the owner to minimize the damaged incurred during transport. This the the damage that can occur sight unseen and when you set the hook and the tip snaps, we wonder why.

[nofearengineer]

Let's talk about stress vs. strain, and the types of strain; elastic vs. inelastic.

When you apply a force or a torque to an object, you stress it. If the object deforms in some manner in response to that stress, that is strain.

Elastic strain represents a deformation that the material can fully recover from, with no permanent change to the object. Inelastic strain is one in which the object is permanently changed; i.e, usually weaker.

The yield strength of a material such as carbon fiber is the stress point at which the material stops experiencing elastic strength, and starts showing inelastic strain.

Modulus is the ratio of stress to strain; i.e. force/torque applied per unit area per ratio of distance of deformation to length of object. I always laugh when I see "XX ton modulus." There is no such thing, just like "XX pounds of pressure." It should be a force per area unit.

The higher the modulus, the "stiffer" (don't confuse this with stronger!) the object. In the case of carbon fiber, high modulus designs usually are very brittle, as Anthony said.

To contradict Waffle, something that does not experience stress past its yield point will generally not degrade. There are some exceptions though, such as aluminum, which can indeed fail under its yield strength after prolonged use.

I think you are more likely to just accidentally break your fishing rod before you experience any sub-yield stress failure in the carbon fiber. It would probably take thousands of years for that to happen.

[WaffleJaw]

I agree with you Nofear..If you dont stress ''past the yield point'' ,Nicely put.

Heres a good article from Rodmaker magazine on proper rod handling to prevent accidental breakage.

http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/rodusage.pdf

[Ebbetsguy]

Wow, Thats an explanation I can actually understand, Thanks

[BigBassin144]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

Wow, Thats an exlanation I can actually understand, Thanks

That's a rarity from Nofear. Normally we just have to smile and nod.

BB

[rrw4258]

Originally Posted by WaffleJaw

I agree with you Nofear..If you dont stress ''past the yield point'' ,Nicely put.

Heres a good article from Rodmaker magazine on proper rod handling to prevent accidental breakage.

http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/rodusage.pdf

Wow! Waffle, thanks for the great article. There was a lot of simple things in there that was already aware of, but it was a great read and I learned a few things myself.

Ryan

[DaveW731]

Originally Posted by WTL

I have heard that it is quite common for rods to become more limp with age. Gladly I have yet to experience this problem.

Sadly, I have experienced this problem in one setting for which rod stiffness is a CRUCIAL factor in satisfactory performance

[bcklash]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

Gee I have to ask the ol lady about this one

If you can remember Ebbets field, no need to ask your ole lady!!!!

[Ebbetsguy]

Originally Posted by bcklash

If you can remember Ebbets field, no need to ask your ole lady!!!!

Thanks I needed that. I spent the earlier part of today attending a funeral mass for a 21 year old kid, of a co worker. I am overwhelmed to say the least, I did not have the words to express what I was feeling for her.