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Old 04-23-14, 11:29 AM   #1
keithdog
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Default Line choice for casting jigs.

I had a discussion with Kory recently regarding line choice for "CASTING" jigs. NOT PITCHING. Pitching jigs is reserved mainly for pin point presentation in heavier cover. I'm instead, talking about casting jigs in areas of less heavy cover, such as in gravel beds, points, submerged humps and so forth.
The way I see it, one won't need as heavy a line as for pitching. Various factors come into play I'm sure. But on "average", what's your choice in a casting line for jig fishing? Minimal line stretch would be important no doubt, but what about line strength? Would you prefer something in the 15 or 17 or even 20 pound size? Flourocarbon, mono or braid? Each has advantages and disadvantages.
I happen to have a brand new spool of Pline Flouroclear in 15 pound test, so I am going to use that for now. I love Flouroclear line for many reasons. Kory said he likes Segar AbrazX in 15 pound test. What's your choice and why?
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Old 04-23-14, 01:09 PM   #2
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I am no expert on all the various lines available today. Why? Because I use braid for almost everything, everywhere. The only time I go with mono: Fly fishing leader material, and bait that "coast" after a tug. Zara Spooks will float right over braid, since it's so limp it stops moving as soon as you stop pulling. Mono has a little stiffness to it that allows the lure to push it some.
So, if you think the swim jig, or regular jig used in the water column, is drifting over the line, then mono or flouro would be better.

I fish spring outputs sometimes, gin clear water. I use braid. If the fish "thinks" about it at all ... it's got to be nothing but a strand of weed stem.
also, almost everything I have has 20 pound test (8 pound diameter) braid, except my pitching and flipping rods which are strung with 30 pound.
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Old 04-23-14, 02:08 PM   #3
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I use 12-15lb FC line for this application. I use it primarily for the slack line feedback, braid does not provide any feedback on a slack line and there are times where that is a disadvantage. Braid is also never my first choice in rocky areas, as it tends to fray. A good quality Co-polymer line would be fine also, maybe a little less abrasion resistant, and slightly less sensitivity than a FC but should work well.

I use to use P-line CXX or Fluoroclear for just about everything until I started using Tatsu, yes it is expensive line but it is very managable and offers good abrasion resistance and fantastic sensitivity.
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Old 04-24-14, 07:25 AM   #4
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Tavery ... I am NOT disagreeing with you, to each their own. However, I like my braid because I CAN feel hits on slack line. Most of the time, when I let a lure fall, I lay the line on the water and watch it move as the sinking lure pulls it along. A quick tic on the line, or seeing the line stop before I think it's hit bottom, fish on!
But I have a bad habit of looking for my next target to cast to. And many times, I've felt the hit when I was looking around.
I might have to try FC ... just to see if it is any better than braid, but it'll take a lot to convince me.

As for the fraying, yes ... braid frays. But I've still straightened hooks on snags without losing a lure, even with frayed line. I've rarely lost a fish with braid, and I don't think any loss was due to line damage. I know I have lost fish with mono, damaged line or not.

It is hard to exceed the castability of braid, when you are casting a 20 pound line that's only 6 or 8 pound diameter, and more limp than any other line. For casting jigs, cranks or any other lure you want to get distance on, braid's hard to beat.
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Old 04-24-14, 12:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikechell View Post
Tavery ... I am NOT disagreeing with you, to each their own. However, I like my braid because I CAN feel hits on slack line. Most of the time, when I let a lure fall, I lay the line on the water and watch it move as the sinking lure pulls it along. A quick tic on the line, or seeing the line stop before I think it's hit bottom, fish on!
But I have a bad habit of looking for my next target to cast to. And many times, I've felt the hit when I was looking around.
I might have to try FC ... just to see if it is any better than braid, but it'll take a lot to convince me.

As for the fraying, yes ... braid frays. But I've still straightened hooks on snags without losing a lure, even with frayed line. I've rarely lost a fish with braid, and I don't think any loss was due to line damage. I know I have lost fish with mono, damaged line or not.

It is hard to exceed the castability of braid, when you are casting a 20 pound line that's only 6 or 8 pound diameter, and more limp than any other line. For casting jigs, cranks or any other lure you want to get distance on, braid's hard to beat.

Try this sometime, run about 4-5 foot of braided line out of the end of your rod with nothing attached. Create a situation where the line is in a slack relaxed positon, and flick the end of it and see what you get. Try the same with FC line. I think you will able to see a difference immediately.
I say if something works for you then don't change it, but it's always good to be open to other ideas.
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Old 04-30-14, 12:54 PM   #6
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I use both 30lb braid green and 16 lb fc red for less vegy areas.I like to toss on the edges of buckbrush and lilly pad lines.
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Old 05-01-14, 03:31 PM   #7
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I'm going to try something different this year. I'm going with 20lb FC on one 7' 704 Powell and then I'm using braid on another 7' 704 Powell rod. Both will be used for jigs at some point.
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Old 05-02-14, 06:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIbasser View Post
I'm going to try something different this year. I'm going with 20lb FC on one 7' 704 Powell and then I'm using braid on another 7' 704 Powell rod. Both will be used for jigs at some point.
Let us know which produces best for you.
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Old 05-28-14, 10:14 AM   #9
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i use braid for deep water fishing. at least for me, it has more sensitivity than floro or mono, and the big plus is when you set the hook. when fishing 30 feet deep and making long casts, the no stretch of braid will help in getting hook penetration. i do not use any type of leader. i tie straight to the jig. i use clear blue florescent sonic braid, yes even in the daytime on table rock. stren quit making the sonic braid in the florescent. so, with some searching, i discovered the spider wire glo-vis braid is florescent for those of you that night fish and use a black light. the glo-vis braid is so smooth that it comes through the guides just like mono. not a sound.

i noticed at least one comment about braid not having slack line sensitivity. at least for me, i find it to have more. most floros and monos will have some amount of coil in them, and all those coils absorb feedback coming through the line. since using braid, i can tell a big difference in feeling those non-bites. i have even had people fishing with me that were using floro, and thinking they were not getting bites use on of my rods with braid, and they went to catching bass because they were detecting bites that they were not on the floro. braid has allowed me to go from 7'6" heavy action flipping rods for deep water jigging, to 7' medium heavy action rods. if fishing around a lot of sharp rocks such as what we have in table rock, i would use a 40 to 50 lb. braid. i have used 30 in more open water with good results.

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Old 05-28-14, 10:44 AM   #10
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+1 with Merc1997 on the braid.
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Old 05-28-14, 05:02 PM   #11
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Braid transmits vibration as well as any line out there if the line is taunt, it transmits nothing when slack. Don't believe me just do a little research on-line, or perform the test I mentioned above. I am glad braid is working for you and your fishing and it is great line in a lot situations, but bottom contact baits require sensitivity even on the fall and braid just does not provide it.

Bo, if you FC line is full of coils, I would suggest either using some line conditioner or going to a better brand of FC.

TackleTour • View topic - braid or fluoro for...
forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=52999 Cached
It's exactly as you said. Braid has very little to zero slack line sensitivity (think of a rope) and floats. Fluoro has very good slack line sensitivity (think of a ...



Braid For Shakyheads? - Page 2 - Fishing Rods, Reels, Line ...
http://www.bassresource.com/.../1355...kyheads/page-2 Cached
... its like the line is made for shaky head, and any slack line presentation for that matter. You have incredible sensitivity compared to braid, ...



TackleTour • View topic - What line to maximize sensitivity ...
forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=57508 Cached
I understand the concept when compared to braid which is what I usually fish. I love this rod so far, ... Fluoro will definitely be more sensitive on a slack line.



Straight Fluorocarbon Vs. Braid & Fluoro Leader - Fishing ...
http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fis...-fluoro-leader Cached
So I picked up some Daiwa Samurai 55lb, Suffix 832 50lb, and Trilene 100% Fluorocarbon. My question concerns slack line sensitivity. Will I get greater slack line ...





Disadvantages of braided line? | LINE & KNOTS | Texas Fishing ...
texasfishingforum.com/.../Disadvantages_of_braided_line Cached
Fluorocarbon is the densest line, and that is the reason it's the most sensitive. With braid and Tx or Carolina rigging, ... If you had a slack line, ...



Spiderwire Fluorobraid Line - OutdoorProShop.com
http://www.outdoorproshop.com/Spider...obraid-Line-p/... Cached
Fluorobraid is the braid that sinks like a fluorocarbon. ... The result is less slack in your line for ultimate sensitivity and faster hook sets.



Kevin Van Dam Forums | football jigs?
www.kevinvandam.com/forums/viewthread/8175 Cached
Braided line has no slack line sensitivity and more often than not there is a little bit of wind or ... You wont believe the sensitivity with a good rod and braid ...



mono or braid
kayak-anglers.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=940 Cached
Also, braid loses the sensitivity advantage when there is slack line in the retrieve such as when fishing a senko-type bait.
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Old 05-28-14, 06:39 PM   #12
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I really don't want to argue the point, but I gotta.
You can state all the studies you want ... but it's all about the individual, I guess. The first problem I have with all the statements is the "push on a rope" theory of "slack line".
My go-to lure is a Texas rigged weightless Sticko. My largest bass, and overwhelmingly larger quantity of bass have come on this presentation. I cast, I let the lure sink to the bottom on a "slack line". Anything up to 20 foot depths, I'll wiat for that sucker to reach the bottom before I do anything with it.
BUT, a "slack line" does not mean I lose touch.

Watching the line, and FEELING it sink, while not interfering with the sink rate is what "Slack line" fishing is all about. Because of the drag of water, I've felt hits even with a loop of line on the water, before I've had the chance to take up true slack.

So, just to be clear. I am feeling hits through a slack braid, regardless of what others might be reporting.
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Old 05-28-14, 08:17 PM   #13
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Has nothing to do with the individual, has everything to do with the physical properties of the line in question. Perception is reality, if you believe you can feel vibration through slack line braid then I am sure you can. But I will say this, you are not feeling the bite when it happens, what you are feeling is the fish moving the line, I bet if you were honest you have caught tons of fish and never knew they were even on the line, happens a lot with braid because you cant detect the very light bites when the line is slack. Fish a high end rod with a great FC line and you will see why the Pro's choose to make a living with it.
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Old 05-29-14, 01:41 AM   #14
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over the years tavery, i have had numerous very good bassers fish with me with a good rod and floro, and fishing the same jig and trailer as me, but were claiming to not getting any bites while i was pretty much loading the boat, but the bite was next to nothing. on everyone of those occasions i have let them use one of my rods with braid, and everyone of them went to catching bass because they could then feel the next to nothing bite that was going on. this was not dragging the jig, as we were fishing drop offs, and you let your jig sink with a belly in the line. for me, it is the proof of someone not feeling bites with floro, and give them a rig with braid, and they immediately begin to catch bass. i guess it really just boils down to fish with what gives you the most confidence and works for you. there is always more than one way to skin the cat. some bassers excell at finesse fishing, and others can catch the same bass by power fishing. that is why fishing is such a great sport. there are so many different ways to catch the same bass.

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Old 05-29-14, 08:16 AM   #15
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One of the things that's come into my mind recently. I've been getting "Bass Masters" magazine for over a decade.
The part of each issue that I always go to first is the results from the latest tournament. I don't follow the tournament trail ... I couldn't even tell you who most of the pros are. But I do look at what the winners were using. I've noticed something that rarely gets mentioned.

NONE of the top five finishers catch their fish the same way. They do a nice write up on where they fished ... on what they used ... and with what equipment and lures. And again, NONE of them were fishing the same pattern to get in the top five.

So, we'll all agree to disagree.
I will ask, please don't make statements like this. "But I will say this, you are not feeling the bite when it happens, what you are feeling is the fish moving the line,". It's pretty much as offensive as this line ... "You might not be good enough to feel the bite through braid, but I am."
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Old 05-29-14, 10:55 AM   #16
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Mikechell, I don't think any offense was meant by Tavery's statement. And I definitely don't think it is even similar to the statement "you might not be good enough to feel the bite through braid, but I am." No one implied they were better at it than you, the only thing implied was simple physics.

Take a length a rope and a similar lenth of say a steel rod. Hold each in your hand and have someone tap a fingernail at the other end. Which do you think you'd be able to feel? While this is an extreme example, the principle is the same.

Fluorocarbon has a dense chemical structure while braid is just loosely woven fibers (and actually quite analogous to the rope in my above example). The fluorocarbon is going to transmit vibrations much better when no tension is applied to the line. Now if you were to drag a jig along the bottom to get a feel for bottom composition, braid may surpass FC for transmitting those vibrations to you.

I once used braid almost exclusively. Then I found a fluorocarbon that I really liked and now I keep braid on one rod and that's the one I fish frogs on.

Out of curiosity, have you fished the same technique you talked about above (also one of my favorite techniques by the way) with a quality FC line?


... and back to the original topic. I cast my jigs on 12lb FC, specifically Sunline Super FC (blue box). It needs changing this year, and I may go with 14lb Sunline Super FC Sniper. But it's Fluorocarbon regardless of brand.

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Old 05-29-14, 12:01 PM   #17
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i am sure that each individual will have their own experience of what seems or does work best for them. just as some have a preference of one brand of line over another. again, there is more than one way to skin a cat. as with me, i merely stated the reasons and experiences of why i choose to use braid. one thing that i have noticed while watching fishing shows is that there are lots of pros using braid. you can hear it coming through the guides when bring in a bass. and, they were fishing drop type baits casting them. there again, apparently not all the pros use floro, but that does not mean that the next one will not have more confidence in using floro.

one another note about why i just really shy away from floro, is it breaks very often on my hook set. floro by nature does not stand up well to a buggy whip hook set. it does quite well on a steady pull. knot tying with floro is really important to get the most out of it. just by its makeup floro actually develops unseen fractures when it is bent to the small conformity of a knot. it is because of the density of the line. i have a friend that guides on lake falcon. he fishes with people from all over the country and walk of life. his many days of observations and of so man people using floro is this, "they are all the time breaking off on the hookset". so, i guess another factor with me is how many bass do i loose because of the line breaking opposed to those that i think i am not feeling bite.

see, it is all based on personal experiences and observations. i have many many bassers sit in my boat that use floro, and that is fine if they get along with it. i just do not feel for me at least that it gives me the best advantage. another reason that i have always used a florescent line in clear water even during the day. it is an advantage for me, while others think it is a disadvantage. these types of debates are not to really prove who is right or wrong, but merely to communicate personal experience. exchange of information and ideas is how we all learn and benefit.

i know tavery has but up some good arguments and the opinions of others in the industry, and his own personal experience, and a good job. there really is not a right or wrong here.

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Old 05-29-14, 02:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merc1997 View Post
...there is more than one way to skin a cat.

...

there really is not a right or wrong here.

bo
I couldn't agree more. Personal preference is just that.

I know that I tend to over-analyze things like this, bringing in science and methodical testing and results, etc. When in reality, on the water experience is probably the most important aspect. But I enjoy the sciencey aspect of it sometimes. And like you said, to each his own.

As a side note on FC and knot strength. Not all FC's are created equally. Some are horrible at tying good strong knots (and handling a bad backlash as well as this can easily break some FC lines). Others are much better. I find Seaguar InvisX to tie very good knots. I haven't tried either, but have hear Seaguar AbrasX and Tatsu are both good as well. You still must be careful to lube the knot and cinch it slowly, but it's much better than many I've tried. Sunline Super FC and Super FC Sniper also both tie pretty good knots.

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Old 05-29-14, 05:23 PM   #19
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This is going to be a lengthier posts ...
Yeah, I tried FC ... a few years ago when a friend wouldn't let me take no for an answer. He was so convinced I'd like it, I truly tried it with an open mind ... wondering if I was wrong.

The first thing I noticed was my casting distances were reduced by a noticeable amount.

The second thing that hit me was the memory. Although it didn't have as much as I remember mono having, it still tended to curl a bit. This was a great hindrance to me. When I am letting a weightless soft plastic sink on braid, I watch the line as it moves away from me. It's as slack as you can get it while still maintaining a "hook-set-distance" of rod position and slack. When I tried this same thing with the FC ... the curling of the line caused much more slack in the line.
With braid, and this technique, I feel every tic on the line ... I can even tell you if I am hitting weeds as it's falling. But I can also SEE a hit, as the movement of the line "hitches", or stops abruptly ... depending on the type of "take".
(I know I am not seeing a hit and falsely feeling it ... since I've felt hits when I've been glancing around at other things while the lure is falling)
With FC, and this technique, all I can see is the line curling. I am pretty sure I've missed hits. You compare braid and FC like a rope and steel ... okay, then the FC is a steel "slinky". If a fish takes the lure without truly moving it (the "stop" when watching braid"), then the curl will absorb that and no one will feel it.
I did try FC ... but I have braid on every rod I own now, except my fly rods. Braid is too limp to turn the fly over. Too often, the fly will just follow the fly line tip to the water, piling up the braid in front of it. Mono and FC work better in these situations, since the stiffness forces the fly up and over ... like a pole vault.
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Old 05-29-14, 07:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
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This is going to be a lengthier posts ...
Yeah, I tried FC ... a few years ago when a friend wouldn't let me take no for an answer. He was so convinced I'd like it, I truly tried it with an open mind ... wondering if I was wrong.

The first thing I noticed was my casting distances were reduced by a noticeable amount.

The second thing that hit me was the memory. Although it didn't have as much as I remember mono having, it still tended to curl a bit. This was a great hindrance to me. When I am letting a weightless soft plastic sink on braid, I watch the line as it moves away from me. It's as slack as you can get it while still maintaining a "hook-set-distance" of rod position and slack. When I tried this same thing with the FC ... the curling of the line caused much more slack in the line.
With braid, and this technique, I feel every tic on the line ... I can even tell you if I am hitting weeds as it's falling. But I can also SEE a hit, as the movement of the line "hitches", or stops abruptly ... depending on the type of "take".
(I know I am not seeing a hit and falsely feeling it ... since I've felt hits when I've been glancing around at other things while the lure is falling)
With FC, and this technique, all I can see is the line curling. I am pretty sure I've missed hits. You compare braid and FC like a rope and steel ... okay, then the FC is a steel "slinky". If a fish takes the lure without truly moving it (the "stop" when watching braid"), then the curl will absorb that and no one will feel it.
I did try FC ... but I have braid on every rod I own now, except my fly rods. Braid is too limp to turn the fly over. Too often, the fly will just follow the fly line tip to the water, piling up the braid in front of it. Mono and FC work better in these situations, since the stiffness forces the fly up and over ... like a pole vault.
First I am sorry if you were offended, but I will offer this, if you read my post you will see that is states that it has nothing to do with the individual and everything to do with the line. I certainly meant nothing personal, but again perception is reality.
I can agree to disagree with you.

Last thought, ask yourself why the Elite level Pro's of our sport choose to use FC line more than any other option. The difference in one fish to them can be the difference in cashing a check and making a living or just a long drive for another fishing trip. It just stands to reason that they would use the finest fishing line available to them.
I wish we had the opportunity to fish together, I think I could change your mind about FC line.
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Old 05-29-14, 09:40 PM   #21
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I certainly meant nothing personal, but again perception is reality.
I can agree to disagree with you.

Last thought, ask yourself why the Elite level Pro's of our sport choose to use FC line more than any other option.

I wish we had the opportunity to fish together, I think I could change your mind about FC line.
Actually, I wasn't offended so much as I was just trying to get the point across. You know what you "feel" with your line ... I know what I "feel" with mine. Any "absolute" statement contrary to that is ... insensitive. No offense or grudges held.
No offense intended towards the pros (since this is all opinion on my part) ... but I truly believe most of the equipment they "push" is due to the largest pay-offs. The guys who fish with FC and spout it's benefits are getting big checks from the guys who make the FC. There's probably a larger profit margin for each spool of FC over braid, so the makers push FC harder than they push braid.

I think it'd be a pleasure to have a conversation like this in person, on a boat, while fishing. No misconceptions of intent when face to face. We'll need at least three days fishing together, though ... maybe four.
Day one: we each fish our favorite lines and techniques and lures. (Comparing catches all day.)
Day two: we each fish our favorite lines, but using the same lures and techniques at the same time ... each person's favorites being swapped every once in a while through the day.
(This ensures it's not the lures and techniques, but the lines that differ)
Day three: we repeat day one, but with the opposite line.

I don't think there be a need for repeating day two with opposite lines ... but if we end up liking each other ... we'll add that in just for ****s and giggles.

Call me when you want to set this up. You can come to me, or I can come to you.

Of course ... it's just a dream, but it might happen !!!
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Old 05-30-14, 12:35 PM   #22
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i was reading tavery's statement about more pro's use floro than any other line. but, many of the tv shows, i have watched, many of the pro's are using braid for casting jigs and a variety of other lures. you can tell because of the tell tale sound of the braid coming through the guides when bringing in a bass. erhler comes to mind right off. he was catching bass on a shakey head, and definitely was using braid. floro has its on sound when bring in a fish. so, i see evidence that at least some of the top pros do use braid. so, it basically boils down what works the best for each individual.

on another note about using different lines, and that at least for me, when vertical jigging a spoon, i seem to get more bites using mono over braid. it is not the case of not feeling the bite because it is very easy to see your line stop sinking. i am thinking, that it might have to do with sink rate. the same spoon sinks much faster with braid than mono, and the diameters are very close. one other area that mono is better when spoon fishing is when the water temp is in the 50 degree range many of the bass are caught simply hanging the spoon. mono by nature twists, and will twirl the spoon back and forth, and of course braid will not do that. bottom line is to fish what works for you and your techniques.

bo
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Old 05-30-14, 01:54 PM   #23
joedog
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Once again you anglers got me thinking.
I've used both for just about every technique known to anglers.
Don't throw mono except for one technique.

So lets assume any additional tension on braid will increase it's sensitivity or the feel. (which I believe to be true).
So original post is about jigs which definitly adds wieght and line tension and the 'feel'.
Talking crawling gravel and such on a long/er cast and retrieving it.
So to answer that question.
Either one would work great.

Now for the discussion topic.
Even with a wieghtless techinique and braid, the worm wieghs something.
Anglers often use a heavier worm when fishing deep too.
A 'super tough' braid hook (everyone calls them some thing different but Gammy calls them superline hooks I believe) are heavier than traditional hooks.
Hence again adding tension and feel.

So the real question to me is what quantity of wieght is needed to allow for what appears to be slack line but there is 'something tied on the end', presentation on braid to be able to feel the hit/bite.
Is a senko enough?
Is other brands like the 'sinking minnow enough?
The more the wieght the better the feel but just like thumbing a baitcaster, some anglers are amazing with the thumbing control and seem to always get the perfect pressure for every cast.
Some like me wouldn't even throw a baitcaster if they didn't know the thumb trick for removing bird nests.

So in reality I think Bo IS feeling the the small ticks and all flouro does stretch somewhat and braid none at all so the hook set is usually going to be stronger and better. Hence boating more fish.
Nature of the line.
Hence the results he sees.
You add experience and good line watching, our minds experience with the line of choice and 'registers' the bite & line movement, touch/feel, see almost at the same time even though light travels faster (sight) our minds may not. And we feel I bite we saw first but seem to feel at same time maybe what truely is happening.

So my verdict......

EVERYONES RIGHT!
And great topic and even better discussion with all the 'WHYS' included.

Kieth thanks for a great post.
Bo, Tavery, Mikechell, Anthony...GREAT DISCUSSION and thank you.
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Old 05-31-14, 12:30 PM   #24
merc1997
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here is another interesting thing to support different ways to do the same thing. i watched a crappie fishing show yesterday, and these guys were fishing somewhere up north. the host of the show spooled on power pro braid, and his guest was using floro. they were casting to catch these crappie. they both caught about the same amount of crappie. they were both using the same jig and plastic doodle. obviously one used what line they felt did a better job for them. the host was a professional fisherman and the guest was a guide.

bo
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