Reel quality versus bearing count

[pro reel]

The recent editon of BASS magazine has an article about bearings and why reel quality is more important than bearing count.I thought i might be able to explain this better with some pictures. I just finished working on a Bass pro shop Royal Express reel. I hate to mention this reel because I don't want to bash BPS reels. You have probably heard me say that BPS makes some very good reels and has some that are the best bang for the buck there is. That's still true, but like all brands, they also sell some junky reels. This is one of those junky reels.
The royal express is an 8 bearing reel. You might be surprised to know it , but they actually use some of the best bearings you can get. However, placement of the bearings and overall quality of the rest of the reel is way more important. In the first picture you will see that this is a plastic composite framed reel. Plastic composite framed reels are not even close to the same quality of most aluminum framed reels, but some aluminum framed reels are also junk, it really depends on the tolerance they build them to. In the next picture you will see the line guide components, notice that they used plastic bushings on both ends. These are not even good quality plastic bushings and are prone to get loose and sloppy. Many reels that use plastic bushings here are actually very high quality and will last a lifetime. BPS could use bearings here and this reel would be a bit better, but it would still not even be close to a reel such as a Citica with half the bearings. In the next picture you will see the inside of the handle knob. here is where they used 4 of the 8 bearings this reels has. It's actually a nice handle on a junky reel, however, it doesn't help this reel any at all other than to make the handle feel better to use. In the next picture you will see the pinion gear clutch components. Notice how the pinion gear sits in a yoke that slides up and down on posts. The yoke has angled sides that site against the angled sides of the clutch. Notice that there is a big gap between these angled areas of the yoke and the clutch. That's because the parts were not built worth a darn and the tolerance is horrible. This is one of the reasons that the bearing count doesn't mean anything for this reel, the rest of the reel is junk and will still be junk no mater how many bearings they use. Now, this next picture is the side plate. Notice the plastic bushing under the tension cap. That's one of the 3 spool shaft supports. That should be a bearing, so why does this reel have 8 bearings but still has a plastic bushing on the spool shaft? Because they put the 8 bearings in places that make the reel feel smoother in the store, that's why. With these reels, you can move up to a nine bearing model and get the 3rd bearing for the spool shaft. Now, in the last picture you will see the inside of the tension cap. Notice that the disk has a divot in the center. That's because they used cheap plastic disks for the tension shims in the cap and under the bearing in the other side of the reel. This reel would have cast pretty good when it was new, but soon after that, the spool shaft would start to drill into those plastic disks and that drastically increases the friction on the ends of the spool. A quality reel would have ceramic fiber disks. Again, this shows that you could use a dozen or more bearings in this reel, but if you save a few pennies by using cheap parts in other places, it will still be junk.
Now. I want to stress that all brands sell some junk reels. I'm not bashing BPS reels, just this one reel. In fact some BPS reels such as the current model of the pro qualifier are some of the best reels available. One thing that's interesting though is that all BPS reels use some of the very best bearings available.

[joedog]

Thanks, bearing count always confused me. Is it also true that quality is really important. I was told once by a older gentleman who I quess was into the reel manufacture and design business, that 4 or 5 high quality bearings is sufficient. This true? When reel shoping how do you find out if they use quality bearings or cheap bearings? Or for that matter where they placed them. I've read alot of reel reviews and I never recall anyone comparing the placement of bearings. I would think this would rank high in a review. You rarely even hear them comment on bearing quality. I find this information very helpfull and again I thank you.

[bamabassman]

great question joe!! also kevin, which is better for gears, brass or stainless? or what type of metal IS the best for the cogs or gears?

[bassinbob]

Very interesting. So you might be saying that Shimano with their lower bearing count is manufactured with tighter tolerance thus the decreased need for bearings?

[nofearengineer]

Stainless steel is harder, more durable, and even more corrosion resistant than brass.

However, those same qualities will also make your gears noisier; do we really need gears that will last 50 years?

Stainless is also more expensive to machine; whereas brass can be cast in a basic gear shape, with only final machining required.

[pig n jig]

Originally Posted by bassinbob

Very interesting. So you might be saying that Shimano with their lower bearing count is manufactured with tighter tolerance thus the decreased need for bearings?

Its the placement of the bearings in the reel design that really counts.

[pro reel]

There is almost no way to know if the bearings used are high quality or not. Some reels list a little info such as shimano using ARB bearings in top reels. The ARB bearings are better than the bearings they use in the other shimano reels. Some BPS reels list the fact that they use german made bearings. Most of the bearings I have found in BPS reels seem to spin as good or better than the bearings used in most top end reels. You could check the schematic for any reel that you are looking at, if you can check that, you could see where the bearings are and if they used plastic bushings in some areas where you would have expected a bearing. The best thing to do before buying any reel would be to check with reel mechanics and hobby reel guys to see if they know anything about the reel before you get it. As for the metals used in gears, they both have good and bad points. Brass might be best becuase it's soft enough to run smooth and strong enough to last, but it's heavy. Aluminum composits are much lighter, but can get damaged easier. I have not seen stainless steel used for main gears in a long time. They did use it in some older reels, but I think there were some issues with it being to hard of a material and that caused wear issues.
I used Shimano as a reference because they are well known for good quality but we also know that they don't use as many bearings in most of thier reels as other equal quality level reels use. Some people like to say that thats because they build them so well that they don't need bearings. I don't agree with that. As shimano reels climb in quality levels, each one uses more bearings. They know that adding bearings to key areas enhances those areas. With many shimano reels, bearing count is the deciding factor between levels built on the same frame. Shimano builds quality reels that are designed to be cost effective to generate profit. Rather than use 4 bearings in a handle, they would rather design the handle posts to be as smooth or almost as smooth as a 4 bearing handle without actually using 4 bearings. If you take away the bearings in handles, then you are down to about 6 or 7 bearings in most top reels. Take away the bearings in the line guide and you are down to 4 or 5. Shimano uses high quality nylon bushings in the line guides so that they will work well without bearings. That doesn't make them any better, it just makes them work fine without as many bearings and lets shimano make a bit more profit. The revo Premier and most daiwa reels use about the same amount of bearings as top level shimano reels use, but Shimano is the only one I know of that makes a pretty nice handle without using 4 bearings in it. So while you can't use bearing counts as a major factor in picking a reel, you also can't say that a reel isn't good by that either. at best, you can use bearing counts to compare reels of the same brand to other reels of the same brand as long as they are built on the same frame design. One of the most important issues to understand is that any reel with a high number of bearings probably has a 4 bearing handle and it might just be a junk reel with a good handle.

[pig n jig]

I can shed some light on the bass pro bearings working as well as the higher end bearings.The bearing size limits the capability of the bearing performance.Most reel bearings have a rev limit of 10,000 rpm regardless of the grade of bearing used.Proper maintenence and care provides optimum performance and long bearing life.

[Bassboss]

Very informative Kevin! So the basic gist of what you're saying is that bearings of any quality in key areas, is better then a mess of high quality bearings tossed into the reel to make it have a high bearing count. Correct?

Also how's the BPS extreme reel as far a bearing placement and over quality? I'm thinking about getting one if they've still got em for 60 bucks after Christmas.

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by Bassboss

Very informative Kevin! So the basic gist of what you're saying is that bearings of any quality in key areas, is better then a mess of high quality bearings tossed into the reel to make it have a high bearing count. Correct?

Also how's the BPS extreme reel as far a bearing placement and over quality? I'm thinking about getting one if they've still got em for 60 bucks after Christmas.

Well, thats close. basically, there are a few key areas that absolutly need to have good bearings. Thats the spool and the pinion area. Thats a total of 3 bearings. You could build a very high quality reel with just 3 bearings as long as they were on the spool and the pinion. Every other area could use bushings as long as those bushings are made of a good material. The last area where we may talk about a bearing is actually the anti reverse clutch. No one agrees on how to label that, some brands call it a bearing, some call it an anti reverse bearing, some call it an anti reverse clutch. To be fair, it is a bearing but it's a one way sleeve bearing and it's purpose is to be used as the anti reverse clutch. It also stabilizes the crankshaft. So if a reel was built completly of quality parts, with a good design and exacting tolerances, it could be built with 3 bearings and an AR clutch. The opposite of that is that you can skimp in quality and tolerances in a lot of areas, and still make a reel feel very smooth and cast nice by simply using a lot of bearings. The best case senario would be for someone to build a reel of everything being top quality and also use quality bearings in every place that they can make a noticable difference. the drawback to that though is that a reel like that weighs a bit more, unless they cut weight in other places. It can all get very confusing, I'm not syaing that you should ignore most of what you hear or see in adds about a reel when they are talking about how many or what type of bearings it has, but that you should not put it high on the list of priorities.

The Extreme is actually a pretty good reel. It's list price is about $80.00 There are a lot of things to consider when shopping for a reel, but the most important thing is to get the best reel you can get for the money you can afford to spend at the time you get the reel. So, that means that whet may be the best reel for that price today may not be the best reel to get next week. Right now the pro Qualifier is on sale for the same price as the extreme. the PQ is a lot better than the extreme, so today, the PQ would be the reel to get between those 2. A few days ago, you could get a $299 Quantum tour edition reel for $99.00. Thats only $20 more than the extreem and I would mow my neigbors yard or whatever I had to do to get an extra 20 bucks if that was the difference between being able to afford the quantum over the extreme. But you would have had to have been able to get to a Dicks or a cabelas on black friday morning to get it at that price. So basically, wait until you have the money in hand to get a reel, then see if there are any great deals before you decide which reel to get, also see if you can wait for the next good deal to come along. You would be happy with the Extreme, but you be even more happy if you got a chance to get an even better reel for the same money.

[boloson]

hey proreel, i remember u serviced a steez and said that it wasn't all it's cracked up to be. can u explain why you thought it wasn't worth the price? i'm in the market for a reel & was considering a steez

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by boloson

hey proreel, i remember u serviced a steez and said that it wasn't all it's cracked up to be. can u explain why you thought it wasn't worth the price? i'm in the market for a reel & was considering a steez

I wish I had thought to take pictures of the inside of the Steez. Before I ever got into reel repair and when i had never actually seen the inside of a steez, I could be counted as one of those that thought they had to be something really special. I imagined all kinds of fancy new deisgns or super high quality parts had to be inside that reel for it to be priced so high. The first time i opened one up i was very let down to say the least. What i saw was that over 90% of the internals were the same exact parts that they use in most of the top daiwa reels. There was one gear that was made of aluminum instead of plastic. The line guide worm gear and all those parts were also the same as any other daiwa. I think that with a Steez, 90% of what you are paying for is hype.

[boloson]

thanks. good to know. i always here how smooth & refined the steez is compared to the other daiwa baitcasters so i wanted to know what made it that much smoother

[Tavery5]

Originally Posted by pro reel

I wish I had thought to take pictures of the inside of the Steez. Before I ever got into reel repair and when i had never actually seen the inside of a steez, I could be counted as one of those that thought they had to be something really special. I imagined all kinds of fancy new deisgns or super high quality parts had to be inside that reel for it to be priced so high. The first time i opened one up i was very let down to say the least. What i saw was that over 90% of the internals were the same exact parts that they use in most of the top daiwa reels. There was one gear that was made of aluminum instead of plastic. The line guide worm gear and all those parts were also the same as any other daiwa. I think that with a Steez, 90% of what you are paying for is hype.

When you start looking at these top end reels, it starts to be allot more about materials than design.

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by boloson

thanks. good to know. i always here how smooth & refined the steez is compared to the other daiwa baitcasters so i wanted to know what made it that much smoother

Well, that kinda of goes with exactly what i was talking about earlier, Bearings. If you take a high quality reel, and then put a good bearing in every spot where it can help, you will get a very smooth reel. Dawia is almost at the other extreme end of the stick on not using bearings in reels until they get very expensive. The zillion sells for around 300 bucks but doesn't have any bearings in the handle. Almost all daiwa fans that are into customizing thier reels always start with upgraded handles and knobs.
The Steez is an 11 bearing reel, and it uses pretty good bearings, but not anywhere close to the best. The reel i worked on a while back was brand new, The owner was very disapointed in that it didn't cast even close to how he thought it should have. I flushed the spool bearings and found that they were nice and smooth, but had very low spin times compared to other reels stock bearings. I put some Boca OS bearings in it and it was a huge improvment. The steez does have the best of daiwas brake designs with it's type R+ rotor, but I'm not a fan of magnetic brakes to start with and if the daiwa system was so good, then why do they keep trying to improve it? The steez is extremly light and they should get credit for that, i just won't pay an extra 200 bucks to save an ounce over several other reels. Even the Tackle Tour guys who are major fans of all things daiwa admited in thier testing that the Steez was very similar to the TDZ but with a 28% price increase. After having seen both, i would rather have a Core.

[Bender]

I agree with your assessment Kevin. I have a Shimano with 10+1 bearings but I think I can cast at least as far with my old Curado BSFs with high-end spool bearings. Sure the top end reel is smoother, but it's a heck of a lot more expensive. I'm also surprised to read that the Zillions don't have handle bearings; mine are very smooth and that's about the only nice thing I can say about them.

[Tavery5]

On all of the BC reels that I am familar with there are a maximum of 3 bearings that effect casting, all other bearings in a reel are on the retrieval/smoothness side of the equation. That is why Bender's 10+1 reel casts similar to his older Curado with high end bearings. Although I would think the spool would be lighter in the newer reel.

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by Tavery5

When you start looking at these top end reels, it starts to be allot more about materials than design.

I agree Tony, the Steez is built out of fancy and very lightweight materials. I was just expecting more for the price. I'm not sure what i expected, but I just was not impressed. When you consider that all top end daiwas are very expensive, then maybe it's not such a leap to the Steez, but i think there are some other reels that actually spin smoother and feel smoother and they cost a lot less.

[mike234]

Pro Reel, what is your opinion of the Shimano Calais reels

[Tavery5]

Originally Posted by pro reel

I agree Tony, the Steez is built out of fancy and very lightweight materials. I was just expecting more for the price. I'm not sure what i expected, but I just was not impressed. When you consider that all top end daiwas are very expensive, then maybe it's not such a leap to the Steez, but i think there are some other reels that actually spin smoother and feel smoother and they cost a lot less.

I know what you mean, I felt the same way when I looked at the MGX, not sure what I was expecting, but it just seemed like it was fairly normal reel.

[bamabassman]

you guys are a LIBARARY of infomation!!! now i just need a way to understand some of this, hahaha!!

thanks pro, p n j, taves, bryce and whoever else i left out.

just had a thought, brain fart if oyu will,lol.


are there any reels made with stainless gears for bass fishing now? and would oyu list, if possible, which reels are the best gear wise.

[boloson]

Originally Posted by pro reel

Well, that kinda of goes with exactly what i was talking about earlier, Bearings. If you take a high quality reel, and then put a good bearing in every spot where it can help, you will get a very smooth reel. Dawia is almost at the other extreme end of the stick on not using bearings in reels until they get very expensive. The zillion sells for around 300 bucks but doesn't have any bearings in the handle. Almost all daiwa fans that are into customizing thier reels always start with upgraded handles and knobs.
The Steez is an 11 bearing reel, and it uses pretty good bearings, but not anywhere close to the best. The reel i worked on a while back was brand new, The owner was very disapointed in that it didn't cast even close to how he thought it should have. I flushed the spool bearings and found that they were nice and smooth, but had very low spin times compared to other reels stock bearings. I put some Boca OS bearings in it and it was a huge improvment. The steez does have the best of daiwas brake designs with it's type R+ rotor, but I'm not a fan of magnetic brakes to start with and if the daiwa system was so good, then why do they keep trying to improve it? The steez is extremly light and they should get credit for that, i just won't pay an extra 200 bucks to save an ounce over several other reels. Even the Tackle Tour guys who are major fans of all things daiwa admited in thier testing that the Steez was very similar to the TDZ but with a 28% price increase. After having seen both, i would rather have a Core.

so if i can get a steez for $300 then its worth it?

this is great getting a biased opinion from someone who knows a reel from the inside. i might as well get that new chronarch 201e since it looks decent for the price

[Bassboss]

Originally Posted by bamabassman

you guys are a LIBARARY of infomation!!! now i just need a way to understand some of this, hahaha!!

thanks pro, p n j, taves, bryce and whoever else i left out.

just had a thought, brain fart if oyu will,lol.


are there any reels made with stainless gears for bass fishing now? and would oyu list, if possible, which reels are the best gear wise.

Not 100% John, but I think the Lews tournament pro speed spool is. It's a nice light reel, most definitely due to a main SS gear... I think so anyway! lol

*Correction. They're made of "Duralumin" maybe Bryce for Kevin could shed some light as to what that's made of.

[keithdog]

This is a great thread for the end of the bass fishing season when many of us are evaluating our gear choices for next year. Thankyou Kevin and the others for sharing your knowledge on the inner workings of reels!

[pro reel]

Bolo, If you could get a new or like new Steez for $300, then you are basically at or just above the list prices for the zillions. Another comparison would be that the Core and the MGX would be $50 more than that. So although thats still a heck of a lot of money, yes, that would be tempting if you could afford the $300. I didn't see anything wrong with the steez, other than it still casted a lot better after I put better bearings in it. I just didn't see anything that made it worth the list price they sell for.

Mike, the calais A is a very nice and very cool looking reel. Technolgically, though, I would not rank it at the same level as the core. If you read the specs on both the core and the calais A reels, you will see that the Core has a bearing hub in the side plate area. That's one of the best improvments Shimano ever made. The calais didn't get the hub design, and uses a different system to keep the reel in alignment, but I don't think it's as good as the hub. The rest of the internals are similar. Now if you are looking at a Calias DC, then I don't know. I guess someone would have to use that reel for awile and experiment with all the settings to see if they thought that it was worth it. It's basically the same reel with a digital chip that controls a magnetic brake. Shimano's 6 pin brake system is one of the best sytems there are. Most experienced users will seldom have any backlash problems with it. I just can't see the need for an electric digital control system.