firing JoePa

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Kory...not all allegations are true. We can't just go around wrecking people and destroying lives over hearsay or false accusations.

Particularly, when accusations of a sexual nature are made, many of us are conditioned to believe the accuser first. Human nature, sure... but it's not always true, and things can get way out of hand before the truth is found. By then, the damage is usually irreparable, and a career or life is destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Arbuckle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

There are plenty of reasons McCreary would lie. With his allegations, he basically took out the guy who was slated to take over for Paterno. Lo and behold, he's now an assistant coach on the team. I'm not saying he lied, but it's at least plausible.

I don't know if Sandusky is guilty or not. My instincts say he is guilty, but instincts are often wrong. I imagine the justice system will find the truth. However, he had been questioned by the police before and nothing happened. Is Paterno more culpable than the police?

I guess I can add "persecute everyone the police have failed to convict" to the list of honor bound duties.

I understand that Bryce. But like I said this isn't just another case where someone overheard that so and so did this or that. This is a case where someone who Paterno trusted comes to him and says that he seen it with his own eyes. Talk about plausible. Is it plausible that Paterno just wanted the whole thing to go away so his legacy isn't tarnished by having something like this go on under his supervision? I would say it's more than plausible. Imagine how hard it would be for him to go to recruit a 17 year old kid and sit in his mom and dads living room and promise to take good care of their son if this was all to come to light. That would be a recruiting nightmare for a school that has one of the strongest traditions in the nation, and that is a good reason for anyone involved with Penn State to want this to go away. Hell that could even involve the investigator that worked the case assuming that he was a Penn State fan. I am not trying to say it was a conspiracy or that even the law enforcement intentionally dropped the ball. I am just saying that no matter how many reasons you come up with that someone might want to make this up there are at least that many reasons that someone might want to hide it if it were true. Kids were hurt here and I can't think of one good reason for someone to ignore being told about it.

[keithdog]

I was listening to ESPN radio yesterday and they mentioned that administation officials had told Sandusky not to bring any kids onto the campus. If this is so, then like mentioned before, clean house from top to bottom. That sounds to me like the administration was saying, we know whats going on, just don't let it happen here.
Could someone explain to me how this has all come out into the open now?

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by keithdog

Could someone explain to me how this has all come out into the open now?

Follow the money.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Follow the money.

Probably true. And the crazy thing is that things like this have a way of snowballing once it comes to light. At first it's one kid, then two, and then next thing you know there could be 2 dozen or more.

And before Bryce says it, I do realize that when victims start crawling out of the wood work it's possible that some of them are just trying to get attention and weren't actually victims at all.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by carolina-rig-01

And before Bryce says it, I do realize that when victims start crawling out of the wood work it's possible that some of them are just trying to get attention and weren't actually victims at all.

Hahaha. Can you say "Herman Cain?"

[bassboogieman]

Some of you guys are absolutely nutso over this.

Think a minute - again about what Kory just said. Paterno was TOLD by someone - no proof, no pics, just verbal. If I told you I saw NFE fondling a squirrell would you run to the nearest forrest ranger? Or would you (maybe) not believe it? Paterno also knew and trusted (following along with Kory's phrase) the accused, so do you think POSSIBLY he may have harboured some doubt?

How can YOU ASSUME Paterno trusted him? I worked with numerous people in my career - not all of did I trusted with virtually anything. That assumption is not valid. Kory, you cannot assume what another individual you do not know thinks about anyone else. You cannot assume someone else thinks as you do. Lastly you cannot assume their values mirror your own.

Consider the allegations (VERBAL again it's virtural hearsay) and possible motives behind them, as NFE pointed out. Consider what damage could be done to another's reputation had Paterno accepted the unproven allegations and gone to the police, media and thown this accused person to the wolves - AND THEY PROVED TO BE FALSE.

Everyone forgets, Paterno was dealing in real time, with serious accusations that were reported to him, AND HE WAS NOT THE PROPER AUTHORITY TO REPORT THIS TO. Proper authority would have been the Univ. Officers and the police (stated previously). Consider that Paterno did what he was required to do - NOTIFY the PROPER officials with the power to address and investigate the accusations. That ends his responsibility.

Consider also - how would the Univ Admin dealt with Paterno badgering them about progress on the investigation? He had no business to question his superiors after his initial report and would they look favorably on his intervention, or going on an end around them to the police and media? I certainly think not.

Anyone can make a verbal accusation about another to anyone. They do not have to be true. Accusations can be slanted or spun to make them something they are not. Happens in politics all the time. You need to remember ONE thing here: EVERYONE accused is INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY, and that has NOT happened yet for any of the individuals involved. So pause and reflect for just a moment - WHAT IF, all this hubbub is a crock of crap? I don't think it is but it's only my opinion and I COULD be wrong. But I won't bad mouth Paterno or anyone else until they've had their day in court and are CONVICTED.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

If I told you I saw NFE fondling a squirrell would you run to the nearest forrest ranger?

Shhhhhh, dude.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by bassboogieman

Some of you guys are absolutely nutso over this.

Think a minute - again about what Kory just said. Paterno was TOLD by someone - no proof, no pics, just verbal. If I told you I saw NFE fondling a squirrell would you run to the nearest forrest ranger? Or would you (maybe) not believe it? Paterno also knew and trusted (following along with Kory's phrase) the accused, so do you think POSSIBLY he may have harboured some doubt?

How can YOU ASSUME Paterno trusted him? I worked with numerous people in my career - not all of did I trusted with virtually anything. That assumption is not valid. Kory, you cannot assume what another individual you do not know thinks about anyone else. You cannot assume someone else thinks as you do. Lastly you cannot assume their values mirror your own.

Consider the allegations (VERBAL again it's virtural hearsay) and possible motives behind them, as NFE pointed out. Consider what damage could be done to another's reputation had Paterno accepted the unproven allegations and gone to the police, media and thown this accused person to the wolves - AND THEY PROVED TO BE FALSE.

Everyone forgets, Paterno was dealing in real time, with serious accusations that were reported to him, AND HE WAS NOT THE PROPER AUTHORITY TO REPORT THIS TO. Proper authority would have been the Univ. Officers and the police (stated previously). Consider that Paterno did what he was required to do - NOTIFY the PROPER officials with the power to address and investigate the accusations. That ends his responsibility.

Consider also - how would the Univ Admin dealt with Paterno badgering them about progress on the investigation? He had no business to question his superiors after his initial report and would they look favorably on his intervention, or going on an end around them to the police and media? I certainly think not.

Anyone can make a verbal accusation about another to anyone. They do not have to be true. Accusations can be slanted or spun to make them something they are not. Happens in politics all the time. You need to remember ONE thing here: EVERYONE accused is INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY, and that has NOT happened yet for any of the individuals involved. So pause and reflect for just a moment - WHAT IF, all this hubbub is a crock of crap? I don't think it is but it's only my opinion and I COULD be wrong. But I won't bad mouth Paterno or anyone else until they've had their day in court and are CONVICTED.

Your right, paterno did everything he could possibly do to make sure this wasn't happening or was dealt with properly if it was.

And he also probably allowed a guy who he didn't trust to work on his staff and have full access to Penn States football facilities.

[kennethdaysale]

I'm sorry but I have zero tolerance for pedophiles or pedophile enablers. I also have zero tolerance for wife beaters or child molesters etc.

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by kennethdaysale

I'm sorry but I have zero tolerance for pedophiles or pedophile enablers. I also have zero tolerance for wife beaters or child molesters etc.

Awesome. Now if we can just figure out a way to tell beyond a shadow of a doubt who they are.

Because someone else may have zero tolerance for those who jump the gun on someone.

[bamabassman]

regardless of who knew what or did or didn't do the right thing. the only thing the SCHOOL can do to correct it's PROGRAM is to clean house. top to bottom. thjis will all come out as to who did what to whom. each and every one within the program needs ousted.

[pro reel]

For all of you saying that this might all be false accusations, I understand that no one wants to believe that this stuff happens and we also know that some people have been falsly accused, but in this case, there was prior evidence that everyone involved already knew about. Paterno and the school already knew that sandusky was a pervert who liked little boys. The exact same thing had already been swept under the table years before the intern saw this boy getting molested. So when Mcreary told paterno what he saw, Paterno already knew sandusky was capable of doing that. paterno would have had no reason not to belive Mcreary, because it had happened before. If you don't know about this, then do some research. You can google the sandusky abuse timeline and see it all. here is a small section of an incident years before. No charges were filed because the DA didn't think he had enough of a case, or could it be that the DA hoped he could make it go away?
1998 — Victim 6 is taken into the locker rooms and showers when he is 11 years old. When Victim 6 is dropped off at home, his hair is wet from showering with Sandusky. His mother reports the incident to the university police, who investigate.



Detective Ronald Schreffler testifies that he and State College Police Department Detective Ralph Ralston, with the consent of the mother of Victim 6, eavesdrop on two conversations the mother of Victim 6 has with Sandusky. Sandusky says he has showered with other boys and Victim 6's mother tries to make Sandusky promise never to shower with a boy again but he will not. At the end of the second conversation, after Sandusky is told he cannot see Victim 6 anymore, Schreffler testifies Sandusky says, "I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won't get it from you. I wish I were dead
Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.



The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge.



June 1999 — Sandusky retires from Penn State but still holds emeritus status.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by bamabassman

regardless of who knew what or did or didn't do the right thing. the only thing the SCHOOL can do to correct it's PROGRAM is to clean house. top to bottom. thjis will all come out as to who did what to whom. each and every one within the program needs ousted.

So they should fire people who didn't even know? How on earth is that fair?



I am in agreement with Bryce and the others. Its like the nature of the allegations, being as serious as they are, prompt people to act with recklessness, blaming everyone and everything that is within a 20 mile radius of the one guilty person. For instance, Cars.com has decided to withdraw its sponsorship of the PSU-Nebraska game. That hurts espn, not Jerry Sandusky. It is actually comical that cars.com felt the need to do that. Like people are trying to one up each other with their hate for pedophilia by ever expanding and intensifying the anger they express over this.

Another fact that people are missing is that Paterno talked to 2 people about this, one of them being the man in charge of the PSU campus police. Most people are just missing that.


I had an argument earlier with my brother about this, and he is of the opposite opinion. He actually said that he has never disagreed with me more. Acted like I was on another planet. But there are people who are adamant about either side here. Does that not suggest, at the very least, that the moral obligations Joe Paterno had are somewhat dubious if there is such sharp disagreement?

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I have heard the reason McQuery has not been fired was that he possibly qualifies as a whistleblower, who is protected by law. Apparently Paterno does not.

I do not think Paterno should have been fired. Not given what we know right now, at least. I find it sad that a guy who has had a spotless reputation for 85 years is now thought to be lower than dirt based on him being mentioned a couple times as fulfilling his legal duty in a grand jury report. He is basically guilty by association, and little else, as of this moment.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by pro reel

Paterno and the school already knew that sandusky was a pervert who liked little boys.

You are incorrect. As of yet, there has been no evidence to suggest that Paterno knew of the 1998 allegations.

[kennethdaysale]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Awesome. Now if we can just figure out a way to tell beyond a shadow of a doubt who they are.

Because someone else may have zero tolerance for those who jump the gun on someone.

Dang dude your superior intellect, inarguable logic and boundless wisdom has caused me to completely rethink my position on this entire matter. JoPa was there and I wasn't, chances are those little boys were effiminate anyway and were just asking for it. As a matter of fact after I read your scathing rebuke I began to sob like a baby and realized that indeed your mindset is the one we should all aspire to have, in fact it's all clear to me now.......................Joe Paterno for President

[WTL]

Originally Posted by kennethdaysale

Dang dude your superior intellect, inarguable logic and boundless wisdom has caused me to completely rethink my position on this entire matter. JoPa was there and I wasn't, chances are those little boys were effiminate anyway and were just asking for it. As a matter of fact after I read your scathing rebuke I began to sob like a baby and realized that indeed your mindset is the one we should all aspire to have, in fact it's all clear to me now.......................Joe Paterno for President

Lets be civil. People are very emotional, lets not step out too far here. This can be a civil discussion between adults.

[pro reel]

Originally Posted by WTL

You are incorrect. As of yet, there has been no evidence to suggest that Paterno knew of the 1998 allegations.

You might think i'm incorrect, but you have no proof. So you have just done the same thing you say we are doing. You are positive that I'm incorrect without any proof that I'm incorrect. I believe that I am correct and that he did know about the investigation that was done. I am not a fool and know how law inforcement works and how investigations are done. Do you really believe that an investigation into something like that would have been done without paterno and every one that might have known anything being questioned. It also is a big coincidence that sandusky retired shortly after that. Seems a lot more likley that he was encouraged to retire after that. Also the 98 alegations as you refer to them are no longer alegations because sandusky admited to showering with a young boy and huging a naked boy in the shower. Thats not an alegation, thats a confesion. The Da just didn't think he could get a conviction for naked showering and hugging of a young boy and they evedently didn't have proof that it went any further than that although i bet they were positve it had. Think about it. It was the university police that the mother called. I'm quite sure the university police informed the university heads about the investigation and I'm quite sure that sandusky's superior would ahve been brought in on that tidbit of info and questioned to see if he knew anything about it or had any suspicions etc. So when i say that Paterno knew that sandusky was a pervert and had already been acused of it before, I base that on the utmost probablility that he would have know about that, but I suppose there is a very slim chance that it was so hush hush that he might not, I just don't believe thats probable

[kennethdaysale]

Originally Posted by WTL

Lets be civil. People are very emotional, lets not step out too far here. This can be a civil discussion between adults.

Agreed, but the tone and content of post#35 left civility in the dust imo

[WTL]

Pro reel, there is just no way of knowing. We probably will find out. I think it is unfair to judge Paterno until we do. Its not like we have to curse him and burn everything he ever autographed right now. We have the luxury of waiting everything out.

And I can make guesses the other way, too. I could offer conjecture that a man who has been thought to be among the most moral in sports, isn't likely to cover up for a pedophile, especially one that he no longer employs. Its character evidence, so its very shaky, but I can make that guess. Reputedly, Sandusky and Paterno had a falling out about Paterno hanging on, and not giving the HC job to Sandusky. So there is an explanation for the retirement as well.

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Technically, they are still allegations because as you said, he admitted to...well, it was unclear, showering and more. I think his quote was "I don't know...maybe". But yeah, I think we are all pretty certain that he is a pedophile. The real tough questions are...who knew what? When? And its not easy, because this could have been kept from Paterno too. We are making far too many inferences about the culture, context and missing facts to condemn what was up until monday thought to be a great and honest man.

[joedog]

How did I know this thread would end up going this way!
IMO, I think it was said but you just have to ask yourself, " If this were one of my children would I be happy with what was done, with what was said, with to whom it was said to, who followed up and what was the result of such follow up". If your answer is yes than so be it. If your answer is no, we also know your stance!
What is legally right and what is morally right can and frequently are very different laws, rules or beliefs.
Morally it was wrong!
Legally, I quess we'll see.
If it were my child, I would be the one going to jail if not death row!
If it were my child NO I WOULDN'T BE SATISFIED!!!

This statement includes every single person who knew, heard or even suspected some thing was going on.

[WTL]

"If it were my child..." is a terrible test for morality. It would be immoral to kill Sandusky, even though he is a pedophile. And yet if it were my kid, I'd kill JS. No doubt. I would be immoral in doing so.

No, asking "if it were my child...." only emotionally charges what our perceived options were, and that does not lead to a clearer view on what is right.

I would submit that the legal duties here pretty much follow the moral ones. It was the boss who, or the firsthand witness, who had the duty to report it to the police.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by WTL

Another fact that people are missing is that Paterno talked to 2 people about this, one of them being the man in charge of the PSU campus police. Most people are just missing that.


I do not think Paterno should have been fired. Not given what we know right now, at least. I find it sad that a guy who has had a spotless reputation for 85 years is now thought to be lower than dirt based on him being mentioned a couple times as fulfilling his legal duty in a grand jury report. He is basically guilty by association, and little else, as of this moment.

Billy with all due respect (and I do mean that), your talking about Paterno talking with the university police about the matter just doesn't cut it in my opinion. Why the university police? Why not the state police? It seems to me like the university police might have more of a motive to make this go away for the universitys sake than the state police would. So if Paterno was going to do the right thing, talking to the university police was at least one step shy of what he really should have done.

And hell yes he had a spotless reputation for 84 years, but that doesn't mean he didn't have these skeletons in his closet, it just took until now for them to come to light.

I had a lot of respect for Joe Paterno for as far back as I can recall. I always thought of him as the kind of coach I would have liked to play for, and I admired all he had done in his career. And now just typing the previous two sentences made me feel disgusting and want to take a shower.

[bcklash]

Joe Pa didn't hide under a rock except on game day. He knew what was going on from the very begining.

[WTL]

OK, but you are saying that a person has to take it to the particular police force he thinks is most likely to aggresivly investigate. But I think it might be more effective to take it the force with local jurisdiction and connections, that is capable of getting potential witnesses to talk. Its a 50/50 deal. So why does he disgust you, because he took it to the wrong police? Or the wrong person? Thats a harsh standard. He took it to who he was supposed to.


Not only that, read JPs statement. The way he worded it suggests that the GA was very vague about what he saw. We also know that the GA did not stop it and did not report it to the police himself. Given all that, you have a GA tell you he saw something, but wont say what, wont take it to the police...and you are suggesting that JP should then go to the state police?

This is a mess.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by bcklash

Joe Pa didn't hide under a rock except on game day. He knew what was going on from the very begining.

Speculative.