Obama Signs Largest Wilderness Bill in Decades

[cassidyta]

49 other states and you had to mention mine by name for the bad stuff?

I will say that there is quite a bit to be said for a laissez-faire approach to federal government. One size fits all may not be the best way, but I do believe that like the automakers, if a state is going to take the money, then they have to accept some of the rules that come with it.

The issue is that the American people have turned into nothing more than fattened sheep. Our current economic situation has been brought on by our own greed. We as a nation voted in a president because of how much the last one was disliked. As a country, we are looking for any "change" we can find. I think the country had hoped that it would be a metamorphasis to a butterfly, but it may in fact be a mutation that attempts to prove darwinian theories accurate.

All of that being said, I hope that we are all wrong and this turns out to be a golden era of our country. Not because I give a rat's *** about which party is in power, nor how high a president's popularity rating can get. My hope is solely for our children and grandchildren.

[WTL]

Originally Posted by cassidyta

but I do believe that like the automakers, if a state is going to take the money, then they have to accept some of the rules that come with it.

Obviously the money should not have been handed out.

Might as well call it what it is. With the stimulus money, the federal gov't now owns the states.

[jcw1503]

Over here in SC.....

SC lawmakers back away from $700M in stimulus cash
By JIM DAVENPORT – 14 hours ago

COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — South Carolina is poised to become the first state to shrug off federal stimulus money intended to help recession-battered schools, throwing hundreds of teacher jobs into jeopardy because lawmakers doubt Washington can mandate how the state spends money.

For a week, legislators threatened to write an annual budget without $350 million in federal cash as a way to build public pressure on Gov. Mark Sanford to take the money. Rallies have been held in cities around the state, and one is planned Wednesday at the Capitol.

But on Tuesday, the political theatrics appeared to crystalize. State Attorney General Henry McMaster said the Legislature can put the money in a budget, but the governor still is in control of spending the $700 million targeted for the state over two years.

"The Legislature cannot compel the governor to act against his will. Only a court could do that," McMaster told The Associated Press.

Lawmakers, still hoping the governor will change his mind in time to take the money by a Friday deadline, said the threat of legal action laid out in the nonbinding ruling changed the game.

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Hugh Leatherman said he'd now have to write a budget without the stimulus cash because of the potential legal challenge. That budget would cut public school spending by $161.6 million, college spending by $44.2 million and law enforcement and public safety agency budgets by $39.4 million.

"Based upon what we've heard this morning, if this governor can be so callous and so hardhearted to not draw down these funds for the benefit of our people, in my opinion, the governor has absolutely no interest in this state and the people that he governs," said Leatherman, R-Florence.

Sanford, chairman of the Republican Governors Association, has raised his national profile and talk of a 2012 White House run with outspoken opposition to the $787 billion federal stimulus law. He had control over $700 million of the $2.8 billion headed to the state and insists he won't use the money for anything other than repaying debt, a position the White House has rejected twice.

South Carolina, which had the nation's second-highest jobless rate in February, cut $1 billion from a $7 billion spending plan as tax revenues slumped last year, and the governor has proposed keeping many of those cuts for the next fiscal year.

His spokesman reiterated Tuesday that federal money would be requested only if lawmakers agree to use the same amount of money to pay off state debt.

School officials and lawmakers have predicted chaos without the cash. Schools chief Jim Rex has said that 1,100 positions are open right now, and that he doesn't know whether public schools can remain viable.

University of South Carolina President Harris Pastides predicted program cuts and said students could face larger tuition increases if Sanford doesn't take the money. The school has lost $55 million in state funds since June, but could get $35 million of that back with the stimulus cash, he said.

If South Carolina doesn't request the money, it can be sent to other states.

Senate President Pro Tem Glenn McConnell, R-Charleston, said the governor needs to make the request to "end what will become an expensive court battle and uncertainty."

As of Tuesday, South Carolina was among four states that hadn't told the U.S. Education Department it planned to use the money with a Friday deadline looming. However, officials in Alaska, Indiana and Montana were working on those plans

[Lilmoosecountry]

Way to go for that Govenor!!! One lest state the Facist get to own!!!! Why do these NEO Cons think a size 5 will fit a size 35 problem. Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul It is time for a major New Party. The Dems & The Repubes have proven there inablities. It time we take back our country. It's time the Constitution become the letter of the law again. It's time that this nation become the Christian nation that it once was.

[jcw1503]

Originally Posted by Lilmoosecountry

Way to go for that Govenor!!! One lest state the Facist get to own!!!! Why do these NEO Cons think a size 5 will fit a size 35 problem. Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul It is time for a major New Party. The Dems & The Repubes have proven there inablities. It time we take back our country. It's time the Constitution become the letter of the law again. It's time that this nation become the Christian nation that it once was.

i agree...........

[Panthrosan]

I will show their President the same amount of respect they showed My president. Which is 100% none. I also am on the new Obaminator's list of potential terrorists because I am libertarian, own firearms, can quote the constitution(something I doubt our current crop of "leaders" have even bothered to read based on their actions), and am not afraid to voice my opinions.

[achingyoungbum]

Originally Posted by Lilmoosecountry

Way to go for that Govenor!!! One lest state the Facist get to own!!!! Why do these NEO Cons think a size 5 will fit a size 35 problem. Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul It is time for a major New Party. The Dems & The Repubes have proven there inablities. It time we take back our country. It's time the Constitution become the letter of the law again. It's time that this nation become the Christian nation that it once was.

Hi, just introducing myself again, I know I dont know much about politics or am not even old enough to vote but my imput is really needed in this thread, as I know just about everything.

Wasn't Ron Paul that liberal hippie dude, that thinks we should leagalize pot? that doesn't sound very christian.

[Lilmoosecountry]

Well i want to get you set strate. He said we should. He was'nt making a statment about the legalization of pot. Meaning we put allot of money into the war on drugs & have nothing to show for it. Kinda like we are with the current Economy. Putting allot of money into it & at the end of the day all we have to show for it is more debt. Allot of people who voted for obama. Were to intrested in making history by hiring our first black president then seeing the bigger picture. That big picture was this he was hired to the senate & overnight went straight to wanting to be president without putting the expienece in needed to be the next president. Raiseing taxes on people even the rich when there loosing money hand over foot. Is not sombody that show good comon sense. The only bail out needed is the american people. It's our buying power that makes up 70% of the Economy. The american people are'nt buying because there broke. Let businiess fail, let banks fail. If you don't help the average american then there is no REAL CHANGE!!! By the way there is a big diffrence between a LIBERAL & A Constitutnalist!!! What is that some one who puts the US Constitution before anything else. That's not being liberal. That doing what the orignal american Forfathers intended. I also see this lead ban as shot over the bow at other things to come when it comes to Hunting,fishing &Gun owners rights. I bet since this liberal obama scum is linked with PETA somwhere in this new bill.

[WTL]

[quote=achingyoungbum;239120

Wasn't Ron Paul that liberal hippie dude, that thinks we should leagalize pot? that doesn't sound very christian.[/quote]

Ron Paul is not liberal in the sense you use it, at all, and nobody considers him a hippie. He is a Christian, a former member of the US Air Force, a doctor, been married for about 50 years to the same woman. In other words he is actually personally very conservative and old fashioned.

He argues that marijuana should be legalized on the federal level and then left to the states, just like alcohol. And he is absolutely right.


BTW, this thread likely belongs on the off topic board.

[Lancer6]

Of course it will never happen but if President Zero and his commissars would make the borders; Land AND Sea, secure then begin deporting illegals or, ummmm...making a spicier version of Soylent Green, (we'll call it El Soylento,) we Texunz and/or Okies could concentrate on enjoying the bounty of hunting and fishing we possess.
In addition, the vacating of "las colonias" would free up all sorts of terrain that could be reclaimed to a natural state and thus become an Eden for all.
Why, football game ticket sales would skyrocket, necessitating unimaginable stadium expansions since there'd be fewer "uninsured beaner" accidents and welfare waste to reduce our economy and thus more people could enjoy the football supremacy mutually owned by the two states which share Lake Oklexas (recently renamed.)
This boom(er!) alone would relieve unemployment to a great degree, at least in the Land Of The Whorns 'n Aggies and the Domain Of Emperor Stoops The First. Just think of all the corny dawg and nacho vendors that will be needed!
See? No need for bailouts except in certain states where the 'possum canneries have had to close due to outsourcing to Upper Baboonsassholistan and places where unions have outlived their usefulness. (SOME unions, not all, he hastened to add.)

Make it so, Mr. Spock.

Lancer6

[flbassman]

Every time I think about our country, and where we are heading, I get a sinking feeling. It's our own fault. We gave the media too much power. We gave the lawyers too much power. We gave the government too much power. We elected a string of idiots. We spent more than we had. We pissed off a whole lot of Arabs. We told God to get out. We created a welfare system. We took away the values of patriotism and respect. We created a culture of fear and violence. I believe America is rapidly approaching the end of her 200 years at the top. Look at history, the British in India and America, the Greeks and the Romans, the Israelites, the Egyptians, the Holy Roman Empire, the Assyrians, the Dutch tulip crisis etc. They were the BMOC's at the time, and they didn't see the end until it crashed down on them. We are, collectively and royally, f-d gentlemen. The only solace I take is in that, 1, earth is not my home, and 2, I can skin a buck, and run a trotline.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by WTL

Recovered from lead poisoning yet?

"Do lead fishing sinkers threaten the environment?" The Straight Dope - Fighting Ignorance Since 1973.


Avoid the lead split shots. Pretend you're a loon packing your gizzard.


Also see: http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inf...ds_sinkers.pdf

And,


The approximate amount
of lead one active fisherman
loses in the water in about a
year. Bassfishin.com Forums
has 5,046 members.

Assuming 3,200 of those members are active fisherman, here is the amount of lead they collectively lose in American waters in about a year.

[WTL]

Oh Wont Someone Please Think of the Loons!


Now, time to quote Stew:

15 lbs from a small natural lake in Martin County, Florida.

Caught in September on a Strike King tandem-willow Chartreuse spinnerbait with a firetail-colored twisty trailer made by Mr. Twister. The bass was in about 3- 4 feet of water in thick reeds. I was casting to get reaction strikes and this was no exception.

This was taken from the big bass thread. The curious thing about it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Strike King makes a non-lead spinnerbait. Which means Stew, our ecological warrior, was fishing with a lead based product?

Stew...thats bad form. Bad form.

A direct question, did the Spinnerbait you used to land that hawg (in a small natural lake no less) come on a spinnerbait with a lead head? What then, is your justification for this? Why do you hate waterfowl? Or could you be, deep down, like so many of us, in touch with enough common sense to realize this lead business is a red herring?





OK, this is a good picture. But I want everyone to ask themselves the question. Do a quick audit of all your tackle in your mind and all the lures you lost in the past year. Did you lose that much lead as pictured above in the year? Do you trust what Stew is saying?

Stew, I can't speak for others. But I don't lose 1/20 that much. Thats a fact. I'm poor. I know when I lose a lure. I remember it.

Now time for some more JUICY quotes from the article Stew linked....

the impact of lead fishing tackle has not been as well studied

Oh really? But I thought you were telling me that we were killing...things...with lead fishing sinkers? But your very own article that you linked says we havent studied this well? And yet....WE GOTTA ACT NOW! For the Loons!

Determining that figure is a daunting task, as no really good accounting or survey information seems to exist.

And yet Stew just posted a pic of what he claimed is the average amount of lead left by a fisherman a year in the environment. But no good information exists? Where is the pic from, then?

Now there is a section in the article that claims we may be able to extrapolate how much lead is lost into the water from how much is bought each year, but this in my opinion is not good science as in my personal experience I would say 90% of the bullet sinkers and split shot I've lost in my life is sitting in the cushions of my truck, in the floor of my boat, later thrown away out of laziness and not left by me on the bottom of a lake.

In New England, poisoning from lead weights and jigs is the greatest source of loon mortality, accounting for 50% of adult deaths (Pokras and Chafel 1992). Likewise, in Canada, 30% of adult loon mortality is due to lead poisoning resulting from sinker ingestion (Scheuhammer and Norris 1996). Ensor et al. (1992) found that 17% of adult loon deaths in Minnesota could be traced to lead poisoning from fishing tackle.

I don't know about you guys, but if we can save the life of just one loon, all of this would be worth it. *sarcasm*

No lets come full circle. Remember where this discussion started?

Because lead is some really nasty stuff, the levels of which have been accumulating at an alarming rate in many environments.

The lead seeps into ground water and travels 1000s of miles away, where we drink it. It is taken into fish, which we eat.

Children and pregnant mothers are especially vulnerable to lead's ill-effects. Lead poisoning is terrible, just terrible. It causes brain and neurological damage, often permanent. If you've ever known a lead-poisoned child, it is heart-breaking.

So Stew, over the course of debate, has hemmed and hawwed himself down from making this an argument about lead killing the children (an absurd statement) to lead killing the loons. I guess all Stew really knows is he wants to keep others from using lead based fishing tackle (except when it lands him a 15 pound bass), but he doesnt know just why. Something vague about the enviroment.

We are drowning in regulations. And with every regulation passed, unintended consequences abound. Here is a good article, just out, by George Will regarding the switch to the new light bulb - supposedly made because it is more enviromentally freindly - http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will040209.php3

The bulbs, says the Times, "do not do well in hot places with little airflow, like recessed ceiling fixtures," and some do not work "with dimmers or three-way sockets." And: "Be aware that compact fluorescents can take one to three minutes to reach full brightness. This is not a defect." Well, if you say so. Because all fluorescents contain mercury, a toxic metal, they must never be put in the trash, so Home Depot and other chains offer bins for disposing of dangerous bulbs. Driving to one of these disposal points might not entirely nullify the bulbs' environmental benefits. Besides, the Times summarizes the Environmental Protection Agency's helpful suggestions for coping with the environmental dangers caused when one of these environment-saving bulbs breaks:

"Clear people and pets from the room and open a window for at least 15 minutes if possible. Avoid vacuuming. Scoop up larger pieces with stiff paper or cardboard, pick up smaller residue with sticky tape, and wipe the area with a damp cloth. Put everything into a sealed plastic bag or sealed glass jar. In most cases, this can be put in the trash, but the EPA recommends checking local rules."

So let me get this right...on the one hand our government tells us we can't use lead fishing sinkers anymore cause lead is poisonous and might hurt the enviroment cause it kills some stupid birds.

On the other hand the government is telling us that we must stop using the old light bulbs and go to new ones with MERCURY (which is notoriously more dangerous than lead) in them because it is better for the environment even though the industry that will be built around disposing the environmentally hazardous new bulbs will more than offset the energy gains made by the efficiency of the new bulbs?


YOUR GOVERNMENT IN ACTION!

Dare I ask what we do when in 10 years someone suggests that tungsten kills turtles?




FIN.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by WTL

What then, is your justification for this?

Oh, that's easy.

It's because in 1995, when I caught that hawg, I was an adolescent-like undereducated Right-wing nutbag that cherry-picked from articles while I ignored the evidence they actually presented but that disagreed with how I wanted to cherry-pick them. Like you.

Where'd you go to college? Graduate school? What were your science grades like in, say, Systems Ecology?

By the way, the fishery at that particular Martin County lake was destroyed in the early 2000s due to eutrophication resulting from run-off.

As you can see along the left, a developer placed upper-tier homes along about one-half of the lake. The eutrophication that followed over several years was so severe that the resulting overtake of reeds dried up about three-fourths of the surface water area. This can be seen in these before and after photos:

1995:


2008 (with former shoreline drawn):

[WTL]

You have been doing nothing but cherry picking since you came to this board. Your entire argument is based on it.

Oh yeah, speaking of run off. Guntersville lake Alabama is having a problem with massive erosion of its islands. Why? Cormorants, a federally protected species, have infested and are killing the trees on the islands which then die which is resulting in the islands being eroded into the river. Again,

YOUR GOVERNMENT IN ACTION!

[WTL]

I went to the University of Alabama, BA in Political Science. I studied byzantine governmental policies like the ones you advocate. They always have unintended consequences.

[WTL]

What is your opinion of mercury containing bulbs being mandated by the federal government? Is that a wise policy?

[WTL]

While we are discussing florida and the destruction of habitat, my Dad fished Kissimmee in the day. It was destroyed by the federal government, who straightened the kissimmee river into a ditch.

I heard a stat that 90% of the wading birds in that part of florida died.

It was the government policies, specifically the army corp of engineers, that did this.

Now the government spends money to fill in the ditch it built, and spends money to draw down kissimmee to replicate natural water cycles that the government in its hasty 1950s opinion deemed were not important.

Again,

YOUR GOVERNMENT IN ACTION!

And the government has not learned its lesson. 4 years ago I visited the kissimmee chain to find that they were widening the canals between cypress lake and hatch and hatch and kissimmee. I was told this was to make it large enough in theory for a barge to pass through. Only problem is the barge could never get past the bridge between kissimmee and hatch, which is barely wide enough to let a large pontoon boat through. (well that and the obvious question, wth would a barge be doing up there anyways) So it was just an excuse to spend money, true pork. This turned the deep tannic black waters of the chain into chocolate milk. Meanwhile, the state of florida sprayed the hydrilla with poison. All that did was kill sorta indiscriminately.

Is any of this getting through? You know I dont think you are unintelligent, but I think your experiences have clouded your understanding of things. For the record, I am woefully sorry that your pond was ruined. That has happened throughout florida. And unless everyone suddenly decides to become modern day Luddites its gonna continue to happen. You are trying to hold back a flood with your pinky. But enlisting the aid of the government to supposedly solve our problems is the worst thing we can do. What the developers did to that pond, the government did to Okeechobee and the Everglades.

[Stew]

You sound like one of those people who think the government has no role in managing environments and ecosystems. Consider that it is impossible to have unmanaged environments and ecosystems. Someone will manage it for some interest. I want the government to do that because it is ultimately accountable to me. Private unregulated interests are not. Imagine, for example, if all fish species were open to uncontrolled commercial exploitation, as land so often has been.

Historically, at least in Florida - and this is what made the state such an ecological mess - monied interest (i.e., developers of various sorts) captured state interests, and the two were accomplices in creating the mess.

While that is still often the case, it is considerably less so whenever environmental resources are managed in view of protecting their ecological functions. But doing that is rarely in the short-term financial interest of developers, so no entity but the state has the needed power to protect the ecological functions of the environment, if I make my government play that role.

Florida is a huge ecological mess stemming from when developers first came. There was inadequate knowledge about managing development, and the state had largely been captured by developer interests. So developers convinced the state to help them drain massive, massive areas of wetlands. That's just how the problems began.

And yep, there were tons of unknown consequences, and some were known but, well, it was the quick money that talked.

Today those consequences are quite well known, however, and there has been considerable effort to reverse, or at least mitigate them, by governmental agencies and research organizations. And doing nothing is foolish, given what is at stake.

For more see this.

And the narrator in these super brief videos sounds way too cheesy for my tastes, but the content gives a super-quick primer on the problems at stake in Florida.

[WTL]

Real quickly though, yes the government has a role in protecting the enviroment if that is how you want it. But it should be your government reps in Tallahassee and not Washington DC. This is a huge point. Do you really believe the gov't in Washington is more accountable to you than the state government?

Read through the entire thread. See where I stated "the powers not delagated the Federal govt are reserved to the states."?

Thats from the Constitution. We once had a system of government that was limited, and thus the amount of angles that were vulnerable to monied interests were fewer. THE LARGER THE GOVERNMENT, and THE MORE DISTANT THE GOVERNMENT, the easier it is for the monied interests to gain disproportionate representation. You blame the monied interests, and I dont like them much myself, but it is a failure of government that has allowed this whole thing to get away from the people. And the more we nationalize our system, the less power we have to check and balance the special interests.

I believe government is naturally unwieldy, so thats a good reason to limit it. But mainly, it is the responsibility of the people to watch it. The smaller or more localized you make government, the easier it is to keep it in check. The less money you devote to it in taxes and the less power you give it to regulate and legislate, and the less likely it is for it to act as an agent for monied interests.
Lets get back to the loons. What happens if New York outlaws lead, but Vermont does not. And say the Loons go extinct in Vermont. Shame. But you still have New York! The loons will survive as a species, and the people of their respective states got to decide how they preferred it to be. And should they later decide they like loons in Vermont, they can outlaw lead and the loons will quickly repopulate the area. Not only that, but a state that doesnt have loons at all, Hawaii hypothetically, wont be burdened by legislation that doesn't even protect anything. Meanwhile, the Ma and Pop Sinker Company that can only afford to cast its products out of lead will survive because they can continue to market to Vermont and Hawaii. Lake Fork Tackle will then ship its high quality Tungsten weights to New York and make good money and slowly learn to lower its costs while not reducing quality of product.

That is the beauty of having a lot of states. We can better see which policies work that way and better conform government to protect the various different interests involved in any matter.

I know that I am never gonna be able to convince people in the entire country to like free market capitalism, limited government and liberal social policy. But I know there are many that agree with me. So at the very least, if we reestablish state rights to make states return to being laboratories for democracy, I can have my state and you can have yours, and those who want to live in a certain type of place can move freely to a state more in tune with their politics.

OK, seen the videos. Actually was already aware of all that, like I said in person I grew up fishing Kissimmee. I know all about it, seen it in person. It is most certainly a mess. And like I said above, they have not learned that lesson even though you might think it from watching the video. The government speaks out of both sides of its mouth, on one hand they created the problems and then they say they will fix them. They just recently widened the canals north of lake kissimmee to speed water flow. It started 8 or so years and took a few years, dredges, bulldozers, the works. It was yet another boondoggle.

[Lancer6]

Cormorant rant!

Some years ago, whomever was Governor of Oklahoma informed all OK law officers that they were NOT to assist federal agents in investigating incidents of cormorant killings nor were they to do other than turn a blind eye to such killings they might witness or become aware of.
So far back as the 70's, I, while a guest on some ranch well away from San Antonio, I was witness to the aftermath of a "private" cormorant extermination effort. As I recall, the ranch honcho arranged to have a hit squad sneak up on a roost area and open fire at the prearranged signal. Over thirty 'rants went to the Hell they merit than night.
When I arrived the next morning I was shown the scene of carnage and watched as the deceased were collected and burned in a large pit...then covered with soil.
The local TPWD Game Warden came by the next day, noted that the amphibious vermin were conspicuous by their absence, joined us for lunch, shook hands, and left with a pleased little smile on his mug. No further action taken.

Screw the 'rants! Slay them! Slap the crap outta the naysayers!

The Sixth Lancer