Spinning Reels and Line Twist

[nofearengineer]

Bigbassin144 and I recently had a little discussion about spinning reels and line twist, which really got me thinking. He is a big fan of baitcasting reels, as I also have become over the past year. However, as drop-shot enthusiasts, we find ourselves still using a light spinning combo. Do we just have to accept a future of line twist?
First, let me say that BB and I are on different sides of this debate. He maintains that spinning reels cause line twist, while I say there is no reason for it to occur, and it must just be “operator error.” The truth may lie somewhere in between.
Most of us have had firsthand experience with the nasty mess that happens when your line gets twisted up. It seems like if you have any slack whatsoever, the line jumps into a hundred wrapped up knots. It’s a truly "special" occurrence, second only to the thrill of a nasty backlash on a baitcasting reel. But what exactly causes this line twist, and how can it be prevented?
Basic reel design:
We all know how the spool of a spinning reel is stationary; i.e., it doesn’t rotate like a baitcasting reel. The bail revolves around the spool (funny….”revolving reel” just doesn’t have as nice a ring to it), winding the line onto it. Herein lies a possible source of line twist.
During a cast, the line comes off of the spool in loops, rather than straight off, as with a baitcasting reel. At first glance, one would think this is where the line twist comes from. And in truth, the line is twisted at this point.
Grab a roll of toilet paper if you want an example. If you pull it straight off the roll, as with a baitcasting reel, obviously there is no line twist. However, if you pull the paper over the side of the roll, you can see that for every loop you pull off, one complete twist is imparted to the line. Mystery solved, right?
Nope. What isn’t taken into account is that during the retrieve, the revolving bail acts to put every loop back on exactly as it came off, except in reverse. If it weren’t, you’d be having those line twist problems every single cast, instead of every fifty. So the simple act of casting and retrieving with a spinning reel should not be the cause of line twist.
Where the problem lies is when the number of loops doesn’t equal the number of twists. Anyone who has ever pulled a big extension cord or hose off of a spool like a spinning reel, and then tried to wind it up by turning the spool, like with a baitcasting reel, knows what I’m talking about. A total mess. Some early fixed-spool reels were actually built like this. The reel was cast like a spinning reel, and then the spool turned for a baitcasting reel type of retrieve. Talk about your worst of both worlds. No wonder they didn’t last long.
How do we “accomplish” a difference in the number of loops and twists? Several ways, though most of them involve the drag.
· Continuing to reel while a fish is taking line. It achieves nothing, so why do it in the first place? In my opinion, this high potential to cause the worst line twist problems, because it buries the twisted portion of line deepest in the reel. This causes those “surprise” wind knots, during a cast (snap!), or while your favorite swimbait is sinking to a watery grave on a snaggy bottom.


· Trying to free a snag with the reel. For the same reason as above, this is a very bad idea.


· Pulling line out against the drag, rather than opening the bail. If you need more line to tie up, open your bail! We all test our drag, it’s necessary, but should only be done for that purpose. This shouldn’t be a huge problem, as it is usually right at the end of the line, but it does seem to add up to that “once every fifty casts” disaster. The reason nobody thinks of this is because it happens gradually.


· A lure that doesn’t run true. This is probably the most frequent offender. A crank that tumbles and spins, rather than wobbles. Spoons and in-line spinners; it goes without saying these can twist your line, and upset the balance of loops and twists. BB has even mentioned more than once, a T-rigged worm that spirals on the retrieve rather than running straight. It all adds up.


· A lure that spins rapidly in the air during a cast, and always the same way. You would think it is random, but I doubt it. Over and over, this may add up to a nasty tangle. Notice, this can happen regardless of the type of reel, so this supports my point that baitcasters do experience line twist...they just don't suffer the problems (see below).


Contrary to popular belief, closing the bail mechanically, rather than by hand, has no effect on line twist, though it can be hard on the reel guts, and it most certainly will trap a wind knot beneath wraps of line if you’re not careful. Definitely a lazy habit, and surely accompanied by other bad habits that need to be broken.

So it seems that both BB and I were right about a couple of things, and maybe not so right about others. Yes, spinning reels can be a big pain in the butt with the line twist. However, I think they are just more susceptible to line twist problems, rather than the cause of it. During a cast with a baitcasting reel, the line still on the spool is kept tauter than with a spinning reel. I think this gives the line on a spinning reel more of a chance to spring off and misbehave. It’s probably the reason for the commonly held belief that braid “cures line twist” on spinning reels. The truth is that the twist is still there…braid simply doesn’t react as badly to twist as mono or fluorocarbon.

I have recently decided to use high quality (Sampo) ball bearing swivels on all of my spinning combos where “cast and retrieve” is the method of presentation, but not for drop shot or other “bait” type presentations. The high quality ones are quite small, and I don’t think they will interfere with the action, nor the fish’s willingness to bite. The next time I end up using one (I throw my small X-raps on a medium spinning rod) for an extended period, I will give a status report with my findings.

[HarveysMinnow]

Another good thread, NoFear, and I thot I was long winded. LOL

You probably remember my recent thread entitled "casting mechanics". What you have described is the main reason I adopted the unorthodox retrieve grip, where I hold the line under tension with two extended fingers. That was my 'partial' solution years ago to preventing the line from forming loops on the spool (when I had the abyssmal reel and too heavy line). I'm not sure of this, but it could be that this practice also minimizes or even reduces twist.

I should note here that I have always used swivels, without regard to how they impair the action of any lure. That could also be a factor in minimizing line twist, as you mention you were going to try.

Whatever the case, I have never, in all my years of fishing with spinners, had the loopy mess you describe. I'm not gonna advocate my weird grip as a solution for everyone, but I believe it has worked for me.

.

[Rebbasser]

If you haven't seen it, Kevin has a video about putting line on a spinning reel that shows how to spool up without line twist. I tried it and it works as advertised. Since I started using his method I don't have line twist problems. I don't know if it is mechanics or operator error, I just know it works.

[islandbass]

All very good points, that I don't disagree with at all. I also concur that more of the fault lies with the user and not the reel.

As for the bail closing manually, I also agree, but for me the main purpose I close the bail manually is to help me remember to ensure that the line is taut before I start the retrieve. Simply moving your rig to the side to tighten the line pretty much does the same thing. This is done to prevent "loops" which some people equate to "line twist" that can "appear" on the spool because the line was too loose or slack at the beginning of the retrieve.

Line twist problems? I rarely experience nasty line twist of any kind. I take measures to minimize it and it works. I probably spent last season 80/20 Spinning vs baitcasting because I drop shotted like a fanatic and not one issue of line twist the whole season. This is another quality thread.

[Bender]

NFE, have you looked at the WaveSpin reels? I haven't studied exactly how they work but I have heard a lot of good things about them.

I agree with your deductions and when drop shotting with a goby bait I get the most twist because it spins like a Tilt-a-Whirl when bringing it back in. I got some tiny Spro swivels but haven't tried them yet. With light line drop shotting I would rather deal with the twist than the weakness added by two more knots. If you are using braid as a main line they could be a good solution though since you have one knot already.

[Abbeysdad]

It's not the reel as spinning reels don't introduce any twist...but they don't take any away either. The twist we see is more likely (as pointed out in the summary) introduced by twirling action of bait in the water. More with some than with others. You can see this more clearly if you reel in with your line between thumb and forefinger and watch the bait as it exits the water.
Again as pointed out, whenever possible, use a swivel to let the bait spin and keep the line twist free.

Oh and Bender - fear not the knot! A decent knot will hold and not break.

(We've done lots of instron stress strain knot tests over the years and surprisingly, most lines do not break at the knots)

[BigBassin144]

Thinking this over from first reading the thread, I partially agree with you Bryce.

I do think operator error causes most line twist and spinning reels provide more chances for use error than baitcasters.

One thing I don't agree with is that spinning reels, aside from user error, don't cause some line twist. The line roller, which as you said, is designed to wrap the line exactly opposite of how it comes off. However, I think some are more effective than others. I know some older reels' line rollers don't move, some cheaper reels use a bushing under a moving line roller, and better reels have a bearing under it. I think all these factors determine how well it puts the line back onto the spool.

I've used spinning reels from Abu, Shimano, Daiwa, and Pflueger. And I think Daiwa and Shimano have better line management systems than other reels.

BB

[Marty]

One thing I don't agree with is that spinning reels, aside from user error, don't cause some line twist. The line roller, which as you said, is designed to wrap the line exactly opposite of how it comes off. However, I think some are more effective than others.

I agree. I've been using spinning reels for almost 40 years and there's no doubt in my mind that reels induce twist. I've owned too many reels on which twist was impossible to control, while having minimal problems on other reels with the same line, lures and techniques.

It's hard to generalize, but the best anti-twist reels I've owned were the very first model of Daiwas with their Twist-Buster. Subsequent models didn't do as well. My experience with Shimano has been bad and I stopped using their reels because of too many line problems. I'd consider going back now that I use mostly braid.

Certainly "user error" can cause line problems, but in my personal circumstances reel-induced twist was the #1 problem.

[rangerryan]

Kevin's method does help but since generally the spool that the line is coming off of is bigger the line still has a twist. What i do in conjuntion with Kevin's method is pull the line off my reel with nothing tied to it and then i reel it in using my thumb and for finger for drag to be sure the line is going on tight enough but not to tight. To tight can cause nasty loops when casted.

[Ebbetsguy]

I have found the best way to avoid spinning line twist , has been to buy baitcasting reels

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by Ebbetsguy

I have found the best way to avoid spinning line twist , has been to buy baitcasting reels

We have a winner!! I agree.

[CamG]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

We have a winner!! I agree.

I agree as well! Really wish I didn't have to use a spinning reel at all - but there just some things you can't quite do with a baitcaster.

[rrw4258]

I can say since moving to a higher end Daiwa TD-Pro 3000 from BPS this year I have not had a single bit of line twist or wind knots from this reel, and it has seen it's fair share of drop-shotting them brown bass from Erie. Probably 100 days on the water of using it and not a single bit of trouble.

Ryan

[nofearengineer]

You guys raise a great point about the line management.

It seems that most of my line twist, when it has happened, has been when throwing deep cranks. That would make sense, as the line would be very tight, and maybe the line roller wouldn't do as good of a job putting the line back on the spool with the same number of twists that were created when it was cast. A swivel wouldn't help very much with this twist.

To boot, at the same time, it would be twisting up the remaining line still not retrieved, but in the opposite direction, though a swivel would help with this end some.

Great discussion, guys. I'm definitely going to look into the line roller thing. To this point, I had kind of considered it outside of the issue, but contrary to popular belief, I'm always willing to look at other ideas. The more we all know, the better.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by CamG

I agree as well! Really wish I didn't have to use a spinning reel at all - but there just some things you can't quite do with a baitcaster.

There are some techniques that a spinning set up is better suited for. I usually have one with me.

As for line twist, i've already stated my dislike of spinning gear but I'll throw my 2 cents in. For me, the biggest culprits of line twist are the bait spinning during the retrieve, I don't use swivels, and taking up slack line with the reel. It's sometimes hard to pull the line taught after a cast with spinning gear, adjusting my grip to do this can be cumbersome.

Nofear, out of curiosity, why would you throw a deep crank on spinning gear? Is this before you started using baitcasters or just personal preference?

[BigBassin144]

Actually, I've found throwing a crankbait (any crank that runs true) seems to help control line twist on spinning reels, or at least it seemed to on my Abu Cardinal 102s.

BB

[nofearengineer]

Yes, Joe. It was mostly before I got into baitcasters. Occasionally, I will tie one on a spare spinning rod when I want to see if a different color works before I unite my baitcasting setup.

[Jrob78]

Originally Posted by nofearengineer

Yes, Joe. It was mostly before I got into baitcasters. Occasionally, I will tie one on a spare spinning rod when I want to see if a different color works before I unite my baitcasting setup.

That's cool, I was just curious. Nothing wrong with using spinning tackle for any technique as long as you have the right gear. Spinning reels are usually geared right for cranking too, I imagine.

I watch "The Bass Pro's" on Vs. a lot, Woo Daves is on occasionally. I don't think he ever uses casting gear. He does a lot of finesse fishing, drop shots, dock skipping, stuff like that. I saw one episode where he was going to demonstrate carolina rigging. I thought for sure he would be using casting gear but sure enough, he was fishing with a spinning reel.