You can still be for the war in Iraq & still want out.

[Lilmoosecountry]

Why because this war has cost over 30 trillion dollars. So even if for some sick reason you believe we should be there. You still can see how the American Economy can't afford it. Housing market is crashed. Where looking at a 2 to 3 yrs just to recover from that. You jobs are going over sea's. There is some hope. Sike you may have a growing job market in retail stores or fry cooks near you. That the only kind of jobs that are growing. I can't feed my kids on that. Ohhh and the banks that are holding all your money there going broke. No we can't afford the war.

[Marty]

Why because this war has cost over 30 trillion dollars.

That's a little on the high side.

1/2 trillion would be close.

[Rebbasser]

Any idea how much we spend on ILLEGAL aliens?

[Deacon]

I thought both of these were interesting reads about the cost of the war and what that money could be used for instead. Now I also heard from another source that by the end of 2009 gas prices will reach somewhere in the neighboorhood of $7.00-$9.00 a gallon.


http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/10/news...ion=2008011112


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/17/bu...leonhardt.html

[WTL]

Heres the problem.

In Veitnam, we went in, spent a lot of money, lost a lot of lives in a conflict that was designed to be in the name of freedom, then got out before our objectives were accomplished which allowed all that had happened to have happened in vain.

People around the world saw that America had this great military machine that could only be defeated if the wars were dragged out with asymetrical combat and clouding what were black and white reasons for going in.

The retreat from Nam taught that lesson. Leaving Iraq would reinforce it.

So it becomes a definite question of cost-benifit analysis. Is it worth losing more respect, militarily and morally speaking, to save all that money and those lives?

Part of the reason the Shiites were so slow to come on board was that in '91, we kicked the Republican Gaurds *** out of Kuwait and incited the Shiites to revolt against the Baathists, then after the Iraqi army left Kuwait, we let them off the hook. In turn, the remaining Iraqi army helicopter gunships were deployed against the Shiite rebels and they were massacred. That was our fault. We went in, then cut out.

I hate this war for the record. I want out. But given where we are right now, its not a very wise move. That is coming from a person who is almost an isolationalist. This is nothing other than a continuation of the first Persian Gulf war. It is the same war, actually. History will look at it as the same war. Had we stayed out of Kuwait in 91, we would have been better off. Not sure we could have stayed out in 03, just cause of the way Sadaam was flaunting his disrespect for all the terms of the cease fire of 91.

[Buzz Wing]

Originally Posted by Rebbasser

Any idea how much we spend on ILLEGAL aliens?

Amen brother! Too bad Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee are out!

-Buzz

[Whup]

Originally Posted by WTL

Heres the problem.

In Veitnam, we went in, spent a lot of money, lost a lot of lives in a conflict that was designed to be in the name of freedom, then got out before our objectives were accomplished which allowed all that had happened to have happened in vain.

People around the world saw that America had this great military machine that could only be defeated if the wars were dragged out with asymetrical combat and clouding what were black and white reasons for going in.

The retreat from Nam taught that lesson. Leaving Iraq would reinforce it.

So it becomes a definite question of cost-benifit analysis. Is it worth losing more respect, militarily and morally speaking, to save all that money and those lives?

Part of the reason the Shiites were so slow to come on board was that in '91, we kicked the Republican Gaurds *** out of Kuwait and incited the Shiites to revolt against the Baathists, then after the Iraqi army left Kuwait, we let them off the hook. In turn, the remaining Iraqi army helicopter gunships were deployed against the Shiite rebels and they were massacred. That was our fault. We went in, then cut out.

I hate this war for the record. I want out. But given where we are right now, its not a very wise move. That is coming from a person who is almost an isolationalist. This is nothing other than a continuation of the first Persian Gulf war. It is the same war, actually. History will look at it as the same war. Had we stayed out of Kuwait in 91, we would have been better off. Not sure we could have stayed out in 03, just cause of the way Sadaam was flaunting his disrespect for all the terms of the cease fire of 91.

Agreed!
We need to finish what we started.
I'm sure the men and women over there don't want their children fighting the same war.

[Lilmoosecountry]

In 2007 the IRS spent 89 million dollars to collect 30 million in back taxes. Your goverments money at work.

[Lilmoosecountry]

Originally Posted by Marty

That's a little on the high side.

1/2 trillion would be close.

That's just in Iraq. The War on terror is over 30 trillion. Every time one missle is shot off. It cost the american taxpayer a million dollars.

[Lilmoosecountry]

Originally Posted by WTL

Heres the problem.

In Veitnam, we went in, spent a lot of money, lost a lot of lives in a conflict that was designed to be in the name of freedom, then got out before our objectives were accomplished which allowed all that had happened to have happened in vain.

People around the world saw that America had this great military machine that could only be defeated if the wars were dragged out with asymetrical combat and clouding what were black and white reasons for going in.

The retreat from Nam taught that lesson. Leaving Iraq would reinforce it.

So it becomes a definite question of cost-benifit analysis. Is it worth losing more respect, militarily and morally speaking, to save all that money and those lives?

Part of the reason the Shiites were so slow to come on board was that in '91, we kicked the Republican Gaurds *** out of Kuwait and incited the Shiites to revolt against the Baathists, then after the Iraqi army left Kuwait, we let them off the hook. In turn, the remaining Iraqi army helicopter gunships were deployed against the Shiite rebels and they were massacred. That was our fault. We went in, then cut out.

I hate this war for the record. I want out. But given where we are right now, its not a very wise move. That is coming from a person who is almost an isolationalist. This is nothing other than a continuation of the first Persian Gulf war. It is the same war, actually. History will look at it as the same war. Had we stayed out of Kuwait in 91, we would have been better off. Not sure we could have stayed out in 03, just cause of the way Sadaam was flaunting his disrespect for all the terms of the cease fire of 91.

I am borderline isolationist my self. I 've heard threats of different countries cutting us off from certain markets. But that will never happen. We as a country are the biggest consumers of the worlds market. If they closed us off. They would not make the money there already making. But we as a country have the ablity to survive. That is if this country quits being so lazy & stops relying on the rest of the world to feed us.

[jasonfish320]

I'm neither for or against the war, but agree that we need to finish what we started...my father works as a consultant for Homeland here in Maine and trust me when I say "Saddam needed to go" the killing he's done to his people is pure Evil..However, the bigger problem is that we need to start becoming producers instead of consumers...I try very hard to buy american made products (rods, reels, tackle, etc.) but the bottom line is we rely heavily on foreign products and more importantly foreign energy.

Big oil companies do make incredible profits, but think about the amount of tax we are paying on every gallon...and what exactly entitles state & federal governments to this money..they don't drill for it, they don't refine it and they don't distribute...they don't do anything but collect a whole lot of $$$

[WTL]

We are threatening to get off subject here, unless the subject is just politics in general and not the war.

Jason, McCain is proposing that the Federal Gov't suspend all gasoline taxes for just the summer. Some have lampooned him for trying to use a quick fix, and that is what it is, but at least its something I suppose.

LilMoose, the IRS is a bigger problem than the war. We need to eliminate that, its a tax that gives the government too much power over us. It allows them to almost control people when you think about it.

As for being producers vs consumers, the thing is producing a lot of these little thing that are now made in China or Mexico...those jobs would be so pitiful now that really when we say we want them still over here, we really don't. The reason jobs go to countries like that is because over there you have people who will do them for half the price of the Americans who used to do the job. But this is a process that has been happening for the past 200 years. In my home city of Huntsville, we still have the remains of the textile mills that came sometime in the late 19th century or something when it got to expensive to produce in New England. After it got too expensive to produce textiles in Huntsville, they moved further southwest. People in Huntsville don't want those jobs however, cause they all work for NASA, Redstone Arsenal or some computer firm making 100k+, as opposed to textile wages which I suppose are like slave labor.

Big Oil companies are making huge profits. A few thing need to be realized. They sometimes have cycles where they arent making any money, so when they can get profits they need to. It takes an incredible amount of money for PP&E and all the capital you must have to operate a big oil company. And in the same time period where gas has gone up to 3.40 a gallon, milk has increased at a worse rate, and I understand flour has almost doubled in price in the past 2 months. I don't hear about people complaining of Big Flour or Big Milk.

The war...I guess we just need to take a wait and see approach. For about the past year or so things have been a little better. Lets hold our hand and not do anything rash, the Iraqis are starting to see cooperation is the best way to get a stable country so lets go with that. If it gets bad again, we can always leave. But we went over there to give them a chance, lets make sure they get it. If they screw it up this time, thats it.

[Rebbasser]

LilMoose, the IRS is a bigger problem than the war. We need to eliminate that, its a tax that gives the government too much power over us. It allows them to almost control people when you think about it.

There is a fix that will never happen: Stop withholding.

You get a bill every month from the federal, state, and local government and you have to physically write a check to the treasury for the amounts you see as numbers you don't get on your pay stub. People will actually feel the pain of just how much money gets sucked from our paychecks. As it is, you never miss what you never see. Pretty ingenious on the part of the fed to come up with withholding if you think about it. 3 months of writing checks to the government for basically nothing and you would see a tax revolt forcing those high-priced bellhops we call congress to fix the system, if that long.

Here's another thought: Move election day from the 2nd Tuesday in November to April 15th. Pay your taxes, then VOTE. Somehow I don't think the liars-er-politicians would go for that.