Rod Building - Guide Placement Question

[CiK]

I am building a crankbait rod and its my first baitcasting setup build. Does everybody use the static testing guide placement method, or is there something else out there I should be considering.

The blank is a 7'10" Rainshadow E Glass (GCB710MH-GB).

[Jrob78]

I use static testing and test casting to get my guide placement. What guides are you planning to use for this build? I am building a 7'6" glass deep cranking rod now, I had to use 12 micros to even get close to keeping the line off the blank. Glass blanks with a parabolic action are tough. In hindsight, taller guides would have probably made sense for this build.

[CiK]

I am using the Fuji BLAG alconite guides, size 4. I have the blank marked for 5" spacing...........sounds like it might need to be a little tighter.

What technique do you use to put the rod under load? I was going to buy a bag of marbles and tie them to the rid tip.

[Jrob78]

I've got guides as close together as 3.5". They are much tighter in the mid section than most rods I've built. Yours might be completely different than mine though.

I have a little bucket that I tie to the line and put stuff in. I add varying amounts of weight and adjust the guides. I also will sometimes pull the line by hand at different angles and let out enough line so that I can sit the bucket on the ground at different angles, that way I'm not just getting a straight down pull.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

I just tighten the drag down and tie the string down to something and ask my wife to load it and then make the adjustments. I only adjusted the micro though, I usually just use the recipes. You could use the spacing chart from batsonenterprises.com for a starting point and make your adjustments from there. They have a recipe for about every blank they sell.

[CiK]

Originally Posted by Bubba_Bruiser

I just tighten the drag down and tie the string down to something and ask my wife to load it and then make the adjustments. I only adjusted the micro though, I usually just use the recipes. You could use the spacing chart from batsonenterprises.com for a starting point and make your adjustments from there. They have a recipe for about every blank they sell.

I looked on their website for that blank. I didn't see one yet. Its a new blank for them, it came out this summer.

I suppose I could email them to get a starting point.

[Bubba_Bruiser]

Originally Posted by CiK

I looked on their website for that blank. I didn't see one yet. Its a new blank for them, it came out this summer.

I suppose I could email them to get a starting point.

Or sign on to their board. They are usually pretty quick about answering any questions on there. You can also tell them handle length and reel seat and they will get you right size checks and what nots. Beats ordering, measuring and then re-ordering the stuff.

[Jrob78]

The problem with spacing charts is they are only good if you use the guide sizes they specify, which are generally bigger than I would ever use.

[CiK]

Originally Posted by Bubba_Bruiser

Beats ordering, measuring and then re-ordering the stuff.

I don't know what you are talking about.................I get it right on the first time, every time!!

And if you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell ya............ LOL

I love ordering something only to realize its the wrong size. This hobby is supposed to be relaxing. LOL

[Bubba_Bruiser]

I learn a lot from Joe and Waffle everytime I talk to them. I have come out good on using the charts, but I probably do need to do a better job of static testing when I use the charts. I usually don't check it until after I have built it because I hate when the guides spin around because I put out on it too much. But my few have turned out good from using the charts.

[WaffleJaw]

Joe's right about the chart and recommended guide size....Also not every blank is the same...Even two of the same model number..Ive had some that were thinner than others and loaded differently with equal weight..The charts are will give you a good starting point for conventional set ups.....After the guides are in place put the rod close to a 45 degree angle and put it under load (I use water bottles attached to fishing line)
What your looking for is for the line to be evenly distributed while the rod is flexed without touching the blank .If you can help it (low frame guides make this extremely hard sometimes)
So take a step back and examine how the line moves from one guide to the next...If its touching the blank,maybe one of the guides need to move 1/4 or 1/2''... It doesn't take much usually.

Once it looks good you,tape it all down and test cast it...Watch how the line passes through...If it looks like its bunching up somewhere...maybe scoot that guide up a hair and readjust slightly ...then test cast again.
I do at least 30 casts when I test cast....From light flicks to as hard as I can....If theres any issues,I want to find it!!!

Micros are a little different..On a conventional setup my sweet spot for the butt guide is between 18-22''from the reel seat...On micros is around 24''
On a graphite rods,don't be afraid to push the butt guide up if you need too..On a glass rod pay attention to it though.That parabolic bend should help tell you where the butt guide should be.18-22'' should be close.

After that,I start at the tip and space the first three guides 3'' then the rest 4-5''......Put the rod under a light load,adjust the running guides,(about half a bottle of water)then heavy load (about one and half water bottles)

Static testing is definitely my preferred method of guide placement....It allows the blank to tell you where the guides go.

The funny thing is,If You,Joe,Bubba,and me all static tested the same blank with the same guides...All of our measurement would be slightly different.

And they all would probably cast and perform perfectly fine.

[CiK]

How much weight is used to put the rod under load? The expected weight of what you will be catching? For southern Ohio, that is about 2lbs max for bass.

[WaffleJaw]

It depend on the rods power,I use no more than a lb or a little under.On a heavy rod I may do a bottle and a half,but no more has ever been needed imo.At a 45 degree angle this gives me a nice full bend.I typically rest the water bottle on a chair to hold it still and keep it from swaying the rod.
After the guides are wrapped,Ill reattach the full bottle of water and dead lift it to double check everything.
Typically when fighting a fish,the rod shouldn't bend much more than that unless your lifting the fish on to your boat

If I remember,Ill take pics on the next few Im about to start on and show how I do it.One will be a 7' micro casting rod.

[WaffleJaw]

Here mine looks similar to this...Only my rods are at a more 45 angle up.
Although he's not static testing.

I think this is where I got the idea,lol

http://www.rodbuilding.org/photopost...ckbone/cat/506

[CiK]

How do you secure the rod? bench vise at 45 angle to the bench/floor?

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by CiK

How do you secure the rod? bench vise at 45 angle to the bench/floor?

I use a little home made rig on my bench...I have to take a pic to really explain it....Its a little ghetto but works well..Its a combination of a rod holder,pvc pipe,and velcro to hold the rod still (from flipping over)..Its on my list of things to upgrade this coming year.
Alot of guys just mount a scotty rod holder to the bench...I think Academy has a similar one for much cheaper though.
I think Joe using a bench vise and pvc pipe that works well for him,but he can explain that for ya.

Scott Throop (inventor of the tiger wrap) built an awesome looking floor model....I would love to build something similar,but my workshop has limited space=(

http://www.rodbuilding.org/photopost.../acid8/cat/500

[Jrob78]

Yep, I use a standard large bench vise and a section of 1.5" pvc pipe. I clamp the pvc in the vise at roughly a 45º angle and secure the rod and reel in the pipe. I usually use a ladder to step up and get a good close look at the guides.

[CiK]

Ok guys! I got something rigged up and did the static test last night. The test resulted in me needing 14 guides and 1 tip top. Does that sound right? Keep in mind its a 7'10" glass blank for large deep diving crankbaits and I am using 4mm micros. The spacing required near the tip is about 2.5 to 3 inches in-between. As it gets closer to the reel seat the space out a lot more, 6" is typical, with the last spacing being 8".

The only thing I don't like, the spacing between first guide and the tip top is 4-5 inches. Its like this because of the write up on RodBuilding. The spacing after that guide goes down to 2.5 inches and then steadily increases beyond that all the way to the last guide (butt guide). The 5 inch spacing between the tip top and first guide looks funny to me.

[Jrob78]

For that blank with micros it sounds right. I am using 12 on my 7'6" glass blank. Since it is a glass blank extra guides shouldn't negatively effect the performance of the blank.

[DVT Mike]

You'll almost always need a couple extra guides with the micros, but you're still ahead of the game weight wise.

As for static testing, if you don't test for guide placement you defeat half the purpose of custom building. IMO

[hardhead]

Just wondering, why would you be so concerned about line touching the blank? I'm leary about a loaded line dropping below the blank..but touching the blank with micros I don't have a problem. I've sent a number of seeker 706s rods and a number of castaway 964,965,bb1,bb2 builds out.. all touching the blank with a heavy load, no problems and several requests for duplicate rods

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by hardhead

Just wondering, why would you be so concerned about line touching the blank? I'm leary about a loaded line dropping below the blank..but touching the blank with micros I don't have a problem. I've sent a number of seeker 706s rods and a number of castaway 964,965,bb1,bb2 builds out.. all touching the blank with a heavy load, no problems and several requests for duplicate rods

The closer the line is to the blank,the better chance of it going beneath the blank ,under greater load, and bending the blank unnaturally...Also line hitting the blank robs the line of sensitivity.

Welcome to the forum.

(edit,after more coffee)
The line sensitivity comment doesn't really need to be in that equation...The rod is under load meaning you got the fish already,haha!
But still,the main concern is distributing the line as evenly as possible with the curve of the blank under full bend...If the line is touching in some places and not others,then its not entirely even and can put unnatural bends on it causing the blank to stress.

[Jrob78]

I don't go too crazy about the line touching the blank, in some cases it's unavoidable. I still try to minimize it as much as possible though.

[hardhead]

Thanks for the welcome...I'm thinking a 5# fish might put an "unnatural" bend in the blank... we might "overthink" and not try things out enough, I was skeptical too about line contact ..till I tried it on my personal rods on advice from a builder I have great regard for. In the words of Jesse Buky (r.i.p.)one of the better rodbuilders I've had the pleasure to know, "It's not rocket science" Wes

[WaffleJaw]

Originally Posted by hardhead

Thanks for the welcome...I'm thinking a 5# fish might put an "unnatural" bend in the blank... we might "overthink" and not try things out enough, I was skeptical too about line contact ..till I tried it on my personal rods on advice from a builder I have great regard for. In the words of Jesse Buky (r.i.p.)one of the better rodbuilders I've had the pleasure to know, "It's not rocket science" Wes

Nothing wrong with over thinking and getting the most out of our gear.
I rather just scoot a guide up 1/8'' to 1/4'' is all.

If your not having problems,than by all means, build em your way....If we did it all the same,''custom'' would lose its sexiness.