Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame?

[carolina-rig-01]

Tony made a comment about Pete Rose in the Joe Paterno thread and it got me to thinking. Of all the threads we have had on here about all sorts of topics that allow members of different opinions to debate back and forth, I don't think we have had one about the Pete Rose deal. What is your thoughts about it? Should he be banned from baseball?

I have conflicting feelings about it. I understand that gambling on a baseball game is a big no-no for anyone involved with the sport, and I don't approve of Rose gambling on baseball. One could make the argument though, that he was betting for his team to win so it's not like he was throwing the game, but it's still against the rules and while he wasn't throwing the game his betting could still have changed the outcome of that game and other games as well. I think what I have a problem with is that a manager who bet for his team to win is banned from baseball but players who took steroids while they played are allowed to be inducted into the Hall of Fame if they get enough votes to be elected. I guess what I am saying is that if Pete Rose should be banned for betting then all the guys who took steroids should be banned as well.

[Tavery5]

Kory, my problem with the way Pete Rose situation has been handled is not so much about his ban from baseball, but more about his absence from the HOF.

In my mind the HOF is for great baseball players, not great people. Like him or not, there is no denying that he was one of the greatest of all time, and should have a place in the HOF for future generations to appreciate his accomplishments on the baseball field.

[Jrob78]

I have to agree. What he did as a manager shouldn't take away from what he did as a player. The point has been made and it's time for baseball to induct Rose into the HOF. He's getting up there in years and has lived a hard life, it would be ashame for him to get in after he's gone. He played the game the way it was supposed to be played. If Rose is banned from baseball and the HOF, then every single stat Barry Bonds has should be erased from the books. Him having the HR record is a far bigger travesty than Pete Rose betting on baseball, IMO.

[Tavery5]

Joe I totally agree with what you have said. I mean betting on baseball did not help Pete run faster, hit farther or harder, heal quicker or put on lean muscle quicker.

The steroid area has left a shadow on baseball and what some of the great players have accomplished, names like Bonds, Palmero, Canseco, Sosa and McGwire now have asterisks by there names. I will never forget seeing Sosa break his bat and finding it full of cork. In my mind these things are allot worse than betting on baseball because they have a direct affect on the outcome of a game and the records that were established during that period.

[carolina-rig-01]

Originally Posted by Jrob78

I have to agree. What he did as a manager shouldn't take away from what he did as a player. The point has been made and it's time for baseball to induct Rose into the HOF. He's getting up there in years and has lived a hard life, it would be ashame for him to get in after he's gone. He played the game the way it was supposed to be played. If Rose is banned from baseball and the HOF, then every single stat Barry Bonds has should be erased from the books. Him having the HR record is a far bigger travesty than Pete Rose betting on baseball, IMO.

This has always been my argument as well. He wouldn't be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a manager, but rather as a player. They are keeping him from being inducted as a player for a mistake he made as a manager and that is a horrible mishandling of the situation in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Tavery5

The steroid area has left a shadow on baseball and what some of the great players have accomplished, names like Bonds, Palmero, Canseco, Sosa and McGwire now have asterisks by there names. I will never forget seeing Sosa break his bat and finding it full of cork. In my mind these things are allot worse than betting on baseball because they have a direct affect on the outcome of a game and the records that were established during that period.

I agree totally. Steroid use directly affected the outcome of baseball and it forever left a black eye on the game. Pete Rose made a mistake as a manager but it pails in comparision to what Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmero, Conseco, Caminiti, and so many other players did.

[bcklash]

I agree with all 3 of you. Baseball needs more players that plays the game like Pete Rose did. In fact all sports need more players like him. To me Pete Rose not being in the HOF is the biggest injustice in sports.

[bamabassman]

ok, simple. put pete in the HOF. AND REINSTATE HIM!! as mucha s i disliked the man (always thought of him as a show off), he WAS mr. hustle. and he was a great player. as others will agree, we have some players who in MY opion should be banned and their records taken off the books FOREVER. any player who had to use illegal drugs in order to keep playing OR play should be taken out.


i ain't into baseball as ya'll know but this has gone on for way too long. if we could go back i bet they could find SOMETHING aobut every hall of famer in canton,ohio. some of them they already know about. so stupid i think.

[kennethdaysale]

Yes____________

[Dogmatic]

Yes............................................... .................................................. ....

[bassinbob]

Yes he should be in the Hall of Fame as a player.

[Marty]

Another yes here. What he did on the field was real and legitimate and that accomplishment should be recognized. If he needs to be punished for his gambling, then so be it, but to have his on-field accomplishments ignored makes no sense.

The HOF already includes racists and other miscreants, including the guy whose record Rose broke.

[joedog]

I say Yes!!

[nofearengineer]

The short answer is no.

The long form answer is:

Pete Rose was one of the greatest to ever play the game. He didn't get his nickname for nothing. However, that should not excuse him from the same rules that everyone else has to abide by. MLB is particularly sensitive to the betting on baseball issue due to the scandal of the 1919 White Sox, who apparently threw the World Series for money.

I do not agree with those who say that betting on his own team is a mitigating factor. Let's say his starter was deep into the game and his arm was getting tired. But Pete really needs the win, to win a bet he's made "for his team." Does he pull the guy out? Does he let the guy go on pitching, potentially hurting his own record and stats at best, and suffering a career-ending shoulder injury at worst? I'm sure there are many other ethical problems that could arise from merely "betting on your own team."

All that aside, it is really Pete Rose's own fault he isn't in the hall. He took decades to admit (or has he?) he bet on baseball. Like so many other guys caught doing something wrong, if he would have just manned up and taken his licks, he would have been okay. But as it is, he had to be defiant. The whole scandal basically killed A. Bartlett Giamatti, who I consider to be one of the finest commissioners ever, even though his tenure was so short.

Just my opinion.

[Tavery5]

Bryce, I agree with everything you have written, well except that it killed Giamatti. He died of a heart attack.
There is one thing that you may not be aware of. The reason that Pete Rose took so long to admit that he bet on baseball. In the legal agreement between Bart Giamatti and himself, Pete Rose rose had the right to apply for reinstatement, and that the penalty under rule 21 was being imposed without Rose admitting or denying that he bet on baseball. It went on to say that the agreement did not keep either party from making public statements, so long as that statement did not contradict the terms of the agreement. An admission that he had bet on baseball would have been in contradiction to the agreement. In fact Giamatti broke the terms of this agreement when he in a public interview was asked if he felt that Rose had bet on baseball, and replied that he felt he had.

Here is a link to the actual agreement if anyone would like to read it.

http://baseball1.com/files/rose/agreement.html

On a side note, the agreement between Rose and Giamatti took place in 1989, the HOF did not have a written rule that kept banned players out of the HOF until 1990, many people believe that they created this rule after the fact to keep Rose out of the HOF.

My personal belief is that Rose should have been banned for 1 year since there has been no evidence that he bet on his own team, and then reinstated. Aside from all of this, there was nothing at the time that would have kept him from entering the HOF and he should have fallen under the grandfather clause since the HOF did not create their new rule until after the fact.

[nofearengineer]

I just meant that the stress of the Rose situation is what caused his heart attack, though a few thousand cheeseburgers and cigars might have had something to do with it as well.

Thank you for posting the link to the agreement. I will look into the it later, as it is more legal-ese than I can stand, over and above my normal work day.

Even if Rose were let off the hook from a rules standpoint, would he get the votes? I think the popular sentiment would lean towards yes, but the vote is by his peers. I'm not sure how they would vote. Who knows? The ban may never be lifted, so we might never find out.

[Tavery5]

I think it would be difficult for Pete to get the votes to enter the HOF, but I would sure like to see him have that opportunity. The ban from baseball is probably a mute point now, as he has been away from the game to long and may be too old to be effective as a modern day manager (IMO).

Another interesting series of events:

Although the rules prohibit him from participating in official events, Rose was honored on the field before Game 2 of the 1999 World Series for his selection as a member of the All Century Team. he was also honored on the field during the 2002 World Series, in a ceremony celebrating baseball's greatest moments. Many critics slammed the hypocrisy of allowing Rose to return for a major sponsor (Master Card sponsored the Greatest Moments campaign) after having denied the request of the Cincinnati Reds to let him participate in closing ceremonies for Riverfront Stadium just a month earlier.

Just some fuel for the fire.

[bamabassman]

now this is jsut MY opion bryce and tavery, but i HTINK that pete WIL be reinstated AFTER he has passed away. and that is the shame of it to me. he will never be able to stand at the podium and give thanks, or as he is feared to do, bach the people in charge of the HOF. but i truly think he will be there one day. jsut not in his lifetime.

[carolina-rig-01]

I guess how I feel about it is this. I have no problem with a zero tolerance policy, meaning if you break a golden rule then you are banned. It would be an effective way to keep things clean and legit. However I have a problem with the inconsistancy of them banning a guy who was one of the best players for something he did as a manager which in the big picture didn't really change the game. But allowing guys to be eligable for the HOF who took steroids and basically turned Major League Baseball into Professional wrestling. So cheating is allowed but betting is not? In my opinion there is no room for either one in MLB, but if your going to ignore one infraction how can you give the death penalty for another infraction which honestly had a lesser impact on the game?

[the pyromaniac]

Ty Cobb was a degenerate who gambled, had a massive drinking problem, fought teammates/opponents/umpires/fans, and was a horrible racist. He's in the Hall of Fame.

Cap Anson was a charter member of the Chicago KKK and participated in several other racist organizations. He was very outspoken against Jews, Asians, and especially blacks. He's in.

Leo Durocher, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, and I'm sure a lot of other players are in there who were violent and habitual drunks.

Bob Feller passed a LOT of bad checks in the 1970's and 80's. I know this because my cousin Normus's dad worked in the bank branch that handled most of Mr. Feller's business back then. He's in the Hall.

Pete Rose is a degenerate. He lied. He had a gambling problem. He had a drinking problem. He also had 4256 hits. Only Cobb is in the same ballpark as a hitter. Rose has more singles than most hitters have singles, doubles, triples, and home runs combined. He played all over the diamond (All-Star at 5 positions), stole bases, hit for gap power, and ignited the lineup for some great teams in Cincinnati and Philadelphia. He should be on the ballot for that, just don't reinstate him.

Then once you're done with that, throw all the 'roiders out.

[/rant]

[Captmikestarrett]

I think we should bet on it..

Capt Mike

[nofearengineer]

Originally Posted by the pyromaniac

Ty Cobb was a degenerate who gambled, had a massive drinking problem, fought teammates/opponents/umpires/fans, and was a horrible racist. He's in the Hall of Fame.

Cap Anson was a charter member of the Chicago KKK and participated in several other racist organizations. He was very outspoken against Jews, Asians, and especially blacks. He's in.

Leo Durocher, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, and I'm sure a lot of other players are in there who were violent and habitual drunks.

Bob Feller passed a LOT of bad checks in the 1970's and 80's. I know this because my cousin Normus's dad worked in the bank branch that handled most of Mr. Feller's business back then. He's in the Hall.

Pete Rose is a degenerate. He lied. He had a gambling problem. He had a drinking problem. He also had 4256 hits. Only Cobb is in the same ballpark as a hitter. Rose has more singles than most hitters have singles, doubles, triples, and home runs combined. He played all over the diamond (All-Star at 5 positions), stole bases, hit for gap power, and ignited the lineup for some great teams in Cincinnati and Philadelphia. He should be on the ballot for that, just don't reinstate him.

Then once you're done with that, throw all the 'roiders out.

[/rant]

Pyro, these comparisons have all been made before. However, none of the offenses you describe are related to baseball (though many swore Ty Cobb cheated in games all the time, you didn't mention this).

I am not against Pete Rose for any personal character flaw or anything he did outside of baseball, only what he did involving baseball.

[BassinBandit]

Here is my thing with it. He was to much of a competitor to bet against his own team. I once heard he said "If I was going to bet on my own team I would take $100 bill put it on home plate and tell the other coach, I bet $100 we beat your a$$!" I know he had insider info and crap like that but how many times have you see the team that is not supposed to win, win. Everything he did on the field should be what is looked at. He won't be in the hall for being a manager. Thats just my opinion though

[joedog]

Let’s get a few things straight. First and foremost, Pete Rose could play baseball. During his career, he won three batting titles, an MVP award, three World Series rings, and collected more hits than any player in the game's history. He was also among the two or three most popular and most well-known stars during the 27 years that he played and managed in the big leagues. From the time he was a green 23-year old rookie for the Cincinnati Reds, the enthusiastic kid Mickey Mantle dubbed Charlie Hustle, to that day in 1986 when he surpassed Ty Cobb as the all-time hit king, there was nobody better or more famous than Pete Rose in the game of baseball. Period.

And there may have been no player who was more revered. Fathers told their sons to emulate Rose on the field: run down to first base if you draw a walk, run hard and slide even harder, even if you have to flop on your belly. Tear it up; do it for the team; leave nothing on the field. That was Pete Rose. And everybody may not have loved him, but everyone surely respected him on the baseball diamond.


Banned From Baseball For Gambling

Until August 24, 1989, that is. On that day, Rose accepted a sentence from then-Commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti of lifetime banishment by going on the permanently ineligible list. An independent investigation conducted by John Dowd found that Rose had gambled heavily on sporting events while he managed the Reds. Although the report didn’t officially find that Rose had bet on baseball, his gambling violated baseball’s rules against betting on sports. Although the ban stated that Rose could apply for reinstatement in one year, it did not bind baseball to accept such a bid.

For years, Rose claimed that he had been duped by Giamatti, arguing that he thought he was merely signing a one year ban, and not the permanent banishment to which his signature suggests he agreed. Rose also denied that he gambled on baseball. Although he admitted to horse, dog and casino gambling during the 1990s, he adamantly refused when asked about betting on baseball.


Read This Next

Why Pete Rose Should Be in the Hall of Fame: A Practical Approach

These repeated denials were believed by many Rose loyalists, including former teammates Mike Schmidt and Joe Morgan, who repeatedly put their good names on the line by saying they believed their friend. Schmidt and Morgan weren’t alone. In 1999, when Rose was voted to Major League Baseball’s All-Century Team, he was allowed to take the field during the honorary ceremony held at Fenway Park before that year’s All-Star game, and Rose received a 10-minute standing ovation from the crowd. At the time, it seemed as if Rose was on the brink of reinstatement.

But it never happened. Although Rose applied for reinstatement and eventually met with Commissioner Bud Selig to discuss the issue, Selig never took action on the application. His refusal to reinstate Rose led to speculation that there was evidence that Rose had bet on baseball. In a 2002 interview, Dowd stated that he believed that Rose may have bet against the Reds while managing them. Dowd's statement infuriated Rose's many supporters, but in time, it became clear that Dowd was right on point with his accustations.

Rose's Confession

In his autobiography My Prison Without Bars, Rose admitted publicly to betting on baseball games and other sports while playing for and managing the Reds. He also admitted to betting on Reds games, but said that he never bet against the Reds. He repeated his admissions in an interview on the ABC news program Primetime Thursday. He also said in the book that he hoped his admissions would help end his ban from baseball so that he could reapply for reinstatement. In a March, 2007 interview on The Dan Patrick Show on ESPN Radio, Rose said, "I bet on my team every night. I didn't bet on my team four nights a week. I bet on my team to win every night because I love my team, I believe in my team," he said. "I did everything in my power every night to win that game."

What He Lost

As of 2008, Rose is still banned from the game, and is not eligible for the Hall of Fame. He has not set foot on a big league ball park since the 1999 All-Star Game